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Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW


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3 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

What's the maximum amount of strength and weight can TLR use?

The way Feruchemy uses Muscle there isn't suffiecient room on his body to grow enough to move that.

His bones would give out under the weight of the muscle alone, forget the giant stone monster on top of that.

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Just now, Frustration said:

The way Feruchemy uses Muscle there isn't suffiecient room on his body to grow enough to move that.

His bones would give out under the weight of the muscle alone, forget the giant stone monster on top of that.

Okay, then he taps all his weight and crushes it, either by standing on its head or tapping it or with steel/iron.

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Just now, Frustration said:

His bones would give out under the weight of the muscle alone, forget the giant stone monster on top of that.

Uh, you mean like how a feruchemist's bones should give out from the incredible speeds they move at? Or how Wax should implode every time he tries to use F-iron to increase his weight?

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Just now, Nameless said:

Uh, you mean like how a feruchemist's bones should give out from the incredible speeds they move at? Or how Wax should implode every time he tries to use F-iron to increase his weight?

Strength is different, it actually stores muscle mass, and even lets say for the sake of the argument that he could somehow bare the weight of all that, he would litterally be unable to move because his arms and legs would be so large they wouldn't be able to rotate enough to throw anything, or even pick it up.

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Strength is different, it actually stores muscle mass, and even lets say for the sake of the argument that he could somehow bare the weight of all that, he would litterally be unable to move because his arms and legs would be so large they wouldn't be able to rotate enough to throw anything, or even pick it up.

We haven't seen that F-pewter has that limit, and Brandon has never talked about it, from what I can tell. Maybe it would be as simple to fix as using the right intent while storing. Maybe your muscle mass would simply stop increasing, while your strength did. Anyways, TLR could just store the extra strength from A-Pewter, and then compound that.

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Just now, Nameless said:

We haven't seen that F-pewter has that limit, and Brandon has never talked about it, from what I can tell. Maybe it would be as simple to fix as using the right intent while storing. Maybe your muscle mass would simply stop increasing, while your strength did.

It's been a while but didn't Sazed mention that he had trouble moving at high muscle mass?

I could be wrong though

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

 Anyways, TLR could just store the extra strength from A-Pewter, and then compound that.

That is possible but it is more complicated and would be much harder and more time consuming to preform.

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3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

It's been a while but didn't Sazed mention that he had trouble moving at high muscle mass?

I could be wrong though

I think it stretched his skin and slowed him down, so maybe it would be limited.

3 minutes ago, Frustration said:

That is possible but it is more complicated and would be much harder and more time consuming to preform.

Not really. He can just burn pewter, store a tiny bit of strength, then start compounding.

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3 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Not really. He can just burn pewter, store a tiny bit of strength, then start compounding.

Oh, I missed what you said, Allomantic Pewter can be stored in a pewtermind, and I thought that was what you were saying, that he would store that and then get a huge burst later.

Well, with that, he still has the muscle problem as it will automatically attune the Feruchemidic power,

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On 12/2/2020 at 5:11 PM, seriodor said:

Is the fight a Fullborn with unlimited metal VS a Radiant with unlimited Stormlight? I think in that situation a Fullborn wins every time. If they both had just an equal amount of fuel available, but the Fullborn still had an equal amount of each metal, I'd still say the Fullborn. If you take into account the rarity of each of their sources of power, then I'd say the Radiant wins, because a lot of the Alloymancy stuff would require a supply line to smelters and access to stuff that's hard to get ahold of. Radiants just need to have spheres. We haven't seen the capabilities of a Fifth Ideal Radiant though, so maybe they'd do better.

I strongly disagree. How does a Fullborn get through Shardplate? Shards aren't metal, they're spren, so I doubt a mistborn could push/pull them. I think the outcome could depend on how much investiture they have, true, considering that a mistborn with unlimited atium wouldn't really be in danger. And it matters about the mistborn's coin count, because otherwise they would be quickly grounded. And it would definitely matter the order the Radiant is. I think a fullborn would beat an Edgedancer, but lose to a Windrunner. A Windrunner could make quick work of the metal sources the mistborn could use to "fly", and then lash them to the ground enough times to render them immobilized. Then atium wouldn't be an issue. I think perhaps emotional Allomancy could be one of the only ways the mistborn could win. The battlefield would also play a large role in it. For example, fighting in a cave would be difficult for a Windrunner, but in that case maybe a Stoneward would be at the advantage.

Yeah, but I think that atium is the biggest thing in the mistborn's favor, if not the only one.

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1 minute ago, TheDomanreiter said:

I strongly disagree. How does a Fullborn get through Shardplate? Shards aren't metal, they're spren, so I doubt a mistborn could push/pull them. I think the outcome could depend on how much investiture they have, true, considering that a mistborn with unlimited atium wouldn't really be in danger. And it matters about the mistborn's coin count, because otherwise they would be quickly grounded. And it would definitely matter the order the Radiant is. I think a fullborn would beat an Edgedancer, but lose to a Windrunner. A Windrunner could make quick work of the metal sources the mistborn could use to "fly", and then lash them to the ground enough times to render them immobilized. Then atium wouldn't be an issue. I think perhaps emotional Allomancy could be one of the only ways the mistborn could win. The battlefield would also play a large role in it. For example, fighting in a cave would be difficult for a Windrunner, but in that case maybe a Stoneward would be at the advantage.

Yeah, but I think that atium is the biggest thing in the mistborn's favor, if not the only one.

Shardplate is metal, and Emotional allomancy is all but worthless against Radiants. Thanks for posting though.

2 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Wax accidentally Pushed boulders and easily blew out a stone wall by trace minerals. TLR would be fine

Yes, but  physically moving it would be the problem, that's what I was saying.

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Just now, Frustration said:

Shardplate is metal, and Emotional allomancy is all but worthless against Radiants. Thanks for posting though.

There is no reason that strong enough Emotional Allomancy won't work on a Radiant. It's not all that different than Pushing/Pulling on Plate or Blade

Just now, Frustration said:

Yes, but  physically moving it would be the problem, that's what I was saying.

Blow off the head

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Also, by all indications Bondsmiths need to touch someone to manipulate Connection with them. Making it's use in a fight against someone who can move faster than the Bondsmith and see both their own and the Bondsmith's future

On a more conjecture end of things. F-Duralumin allows some level of Connection manipulation, maybe even enough to stonewall a Bondsmith. Unfortunately we don't know enough about it but considering it can store "blank" Connection I'm sure there is a lot more to it than we yet know. 

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I'm sorry guys,  I just don't see TLR lifting a Thunderclast and tossing it several miles. No matter how much pewter they can bring to bear there is an upper limit.  If a Radiant could do so there'd be no need for Shardblades. As far as pushing on trace metals in the rock, how much of that is on Roshar?  It was my understanding that Roshar is quite metal poor, meaning a Thunderclasts 'body consists of hardened clay more than metal laced stone. Furthermore,  I'm not sure what good blowing its head off would do. My guess is you either have to banish the spren that animate the rock monster or cut it into manageable pieces.  So for TLR to beat a Thunderclast he would likely have to find a place on it where he couldn't be shaken off and leech for all he's worth. Barring that, the right tool for the job is a Shardblade. Or Nightblood. 

The most worrisome attribute TLR possesses is speed, that's going to be the hardest thing to counter for a Herald.  I think Ishar could counter Atium and I think Battar and Kalak could smoke him from the CR. Much like a Mistborn vs a Radiant,  the best way for the Scadrian to win is to end the fight before the Rosharan knows that there will be a fight. 

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@StanLemon

Crem tastes metallic. So do mineral deposits in water.  The taste could be either metal or rock AFAIK. But even if the planet isn't particularly metal poor it certainly doesn't show up in the types of concentration as Scadrial.  That info BTW comes from WoB, although I'm not in position to search for it right now. 

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4 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I'm sorry guys,  I just don't see TLR lifting a Thunderclast and tossing it several miles. No matter how much pewter they can bring to bear there is an upper limit.  If a Radiant could do so there'd be no need for Shardblades. As far as pushing on trace metals in the rock, how much of that is on Roshar?  It was my understanding that Roshar is quite metal poor, meaning a Thunderclasts 'body consists of hardened clay more than metal laced stone. Furthermore,  I'm not sure what good blowing its head off would do. My guess is you either have to banish the spren that animate the rock monster or cut it into manageable pieces.  So for TLR to beat a Thunderclast he would likely have to find a place on it where he couldn't be shaken off and leech for all he's worth. Barring that, the right tool for the job is a Shardblade. Or Nightblood. 

The most worrisome attribute TLR possesses is speed, that's going to be the hardest thing to counter for a Herald.  I think Ishar could counter Atium and I think Battar and Kalak could smoke him from the CR. Much like a Mistborn vs a Radiant,  the best way for the Scadrian to win is to end the fight before the Rosharan knows that there will be a fight. 

The Lord Ruler can still try and crush the thunderclast with his weight, and I think it's fine to assume he brought of source of metal to manipulate like cins if he wants to push or pull.

We have no idea if Ishar can counter Atium (If you have a WoB, please share) and that still doesn't change that he can kill Ishar in a split second. As for soulcasting, I have a made a thread where it's clear that TLR bands would be filled to the brim and very hard to soulcast in any fastidious matter. As for TLR himself, BS has said it's hard to soulcast people because they are more invested, and TLR is a sliver, so he is VERY invested to the point of resisting the pull of the beyond for a very long time, so I don't know how much of an option that would be for them.

7 hours ago, TheDomanreiter said:

I strongly disagree. How does a Fullborn get through Shardplate? Shards aren't metal, they're spren, so I doubt a mistborn could push/pull them. I think the outcome could depend on how much investiture they have, true, considering that a mistborn with unlimited atium wouldn't really be in danger. And it matters about the mistborn's coin count, because otherwise they would be quickly grounded. And it would definitely matter the order the Radiant is. I think a fullborn would beat an Edgedancer, but lose to a Windrunner. A Windrunner could make quick work of the metal sources the mistborn could use to "fly", and then lash them to the ground enough times to render them immobilized. Then atium wouldn't be an issue. I think perhaps emotional Allomancy could be one of the only ways the mistborn could win. The battlefield would also play a large role in it. For example, fighting in a cave would be difficult for a Windrunner, but in that case maybe a Stoneward would be at the advantage.

Yeah, but I think that atium is the biggest thing in the mistborn's favor, if not the only one.

@seriodor Okay, fullborn and mistborn aren't the same thing, please clarify which you're talking about, because Fullborn would be a storming Lord Ruler, which as have discussed would wreck radiant and possibly even a herald.

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@Aspiring Writer

No WoB on it, just the observation of Ishar's fight against the Windrunners. Connection,  like Atium sight, originate in the Spiritual Realm.  Ishar probably cannot manipulate connections without physical contact,  but he should be able to see them. That's why I said Speed is TLR's biggest advantage. In the absence of Atium,  Emotional Allomancy is his next greatest,  and the more dependable one. The reaction time of every Herald is supernatural,  they may be fast enough to defend themselves from the speed of TLR at least for a little while even if they could not counter.

I again must emphasize that I still believe TLR takes the prize, the only difference is that I used to think he could body all 10 Heralds,  if not all together,  then at least in groups of 4 or 5. Now I believe TLR has a much thinner margin for error.  

Something that we should take into account for this battle is that every last combatant is insane.  No win is certain because on the Scadrial side Ruin could be prompting TLR to make a mistake or underestimate the opponent.  It's how he lost to Vin after all. On the other side we don't know what particular magical malady any particular Herald is suffering from,  it's kind of a crapshoot.

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10 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

The Lord Ruler can still try and crush the thunderclast with his weight, and I think it's fine to assume he brought of source of metal to manipulate like cins if he wants to push or pull.

We have no idea if Ishar can counter Atium (If you have a WoB, please share) and that still doesn't change that he can kill Ishar in a split second. As for soulcasting, I have a made a thread where it's clear that TLR bands would be filled to the brim and very hard to soulcast in any fastidious matter. As for TLR himself, BS has said it's hard to soulcast people because they are more invested, and TLR is a sliver, so he is VERY invested to the point of resisting the pull of the beyond for a very long time, so I don't know how much of an option that would be for them.

@seriodor Okay, fullborn and mistborn aren't the same thing, please clarify which you're talking about, because Fullborn would be a storming Lord Ruler, which as have discussed would wreck radiant and possibly even a herald.

I meant a Fullborn. I know the topic was Mistborn V. Radiant, but I think that's pretty pointless because a Radiant will definitely win in most situations. I think a Fullborn would of course win with sufficient preparation, but it's not a guaranteed thing. I think the outcome would depend on a ton of variables, the main one being availability of investiture. 

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