Scadrian vs. Rosharan magic post RoW

[StanLemon]

16 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

The Stormfather has shown the ability to manipulate time, that shouldn't be too much of a problem.

That's stretching. He can only do that during a Highstorm which is a massive amount of Investiture moving between Realms. There is absolutely nothing that even suggests that they can do that whenever they want

 

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, BenduLuke said:

A Bronze twin could probably produce a weapon like that though it would probably be anti-Harmony. Their ability to sense pulses would give them a leg up on creating weapons vs any type of investiture and not just the investiture with sonic components like Rosharan light.

It would, except that by the time Rosharans and Scadrians meet, the Rosharans will understand that kind of magic far better.

[Bigmikey357]

TLR vs. Herald. 

1000 years of experience with their power, contending with nobody close to his power level vs. 5000 or so years fighting enemies at least on par with them.

Advantage: Herald 

Ruin playing mind games for a millennium vs. Odium tormented off and on for several millennium. 

Advantage: TLR

Metalmind storage + Compounding vs. Direct Investiture feed. 

Advantage: initially even, Herald the longer the bout (metalminds can run dry).

Both have the ability to destroy armies. However,  any Herald could have gone to Scadrial and achieved what TLR did.  By contrast,  TLR and the entire human race dies on Roshar way before Arihatiem (?sp).

Seeing a couple Heralds casually snatching fast moving projectiles out of the air makes me think that they just may be able to react better to steelrunning than I previously gave them credit for. Seeing Ishar casually school Radiants to the point of there being a question of weather hyperconnection would function like Atium burns scares me nearly as much as TLR. Kelek and Battar's ability to pop into the CR at will (and with infinite Investiture, probably come closest to Nightcrawler style Teleportation than is likely possible for a Radiant) should be worrisome for any opponent,  even TLR. 

Otoh, TLR has some surprises in store as well. While his greatest advantages,  Steelrunning and Atium,  are also the attributes that run out the fastest,  he can pour on the Emotional Allomancy for days. He can defend against most attacks,  can take a punch from a Shardplate without blinking and can punch back nearly as hard if not harder for certain punches (double pewter + duraluminum).

Final Tally: 

I'd still give it to TLR but it is much closer than I initially thought due to some of the onscreen performances of past-their-prime Heralds and their remarkable skills.  Imagine how badass they used to be. One thing is for certain imo. TLR could beat one or maybe two at once.  But he couldn't beat them all. And if he were to try and beat them 1 after the other he wouldn't get through half of them before one ended him.

 

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

I've always thought that Brandon meant for Surgebinding to be the most powerful form of magic in the Cosmere, specifically for fighting.  The Knights Radiant were literally created for war.  They train for war, have experience above most if not all Allomancers in fighting powerful enemies, and some of their powers are borderline OP.  Dalinar is only at the 3rd Ideal, and I'd argue that he's the most powerful non-Shard in the entire Cosmere, except for maybe the Heralds.

[Frustration]

On 12/18/2020 at 6:37 PM, ShalladinForever said:

I've always thought that Brandon meant for Surgebinding to be the most powerful form of magic in the Cosmere, specifically for fighting.  The Knights Radiant were literally created for war.  They train for war, have experience above most if not all Allomancers in fighting powerful enemies, and some of their powers are borderline OP.  Dalinar is only at the 3rd Ideal, and I'd argue that he's the most powerful non-Shard in the entire Cosmere, except for maybe the Heralds.

You're forgetting Hoid in that equation, he is a lerasium Fullborn, Lightweaver, awakener, potential Sand master and Elantrin, and has Yolish magic that he can do X with.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Frustration

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

2 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

You're forgetting Hour in that equation, he is a lerasium Fullborn, Lightweaver, awakener, potential Sand master and Elantrin, and has Yolish magic that he can do X with.

But can he open a perpendicularity?  Does he have access to essentially infinite Investiture?  Can he forge and manipulate Connections at will?  From what we saw Ishar do with the Stormfather, I think it's reasonable to assume that Dalinar has the ability to strip anyone of all of their power by ripping away their Connection to the Shard that gives them that power.  Once Dalinar becomes fully aware of the extent of his abilities, I think he will even be powerful enough to go one-on-one with a Shard, if not just Ascend to Honor altogether.  

 

Don't get me wrong, there are other extremely powerful beings in the Cosmere that would completely mess up Shallan in a fight, but Bondsmiths in particular scare me.

[Frustration]

Just now, ShalladinForever said:

But can he open a perpendicularity?  Does he have access to essentially infinite Investiture?  Can he forge and manipulate Connections at will?  

I wouldn't be surprised.

1 minute ago, ShalladinForever said:

Don't get me wrong, there are other extremely powerful beings in the Cosmere that would completely mess up Shallan in a fight, but Bondsmiths in particular scare me.

Oh you should be, and I definitely am.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

9 minutes ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

You're forgetting Hour in that equation, he is a lerasium Fullborn, Lightweaver, awakener, potential Sand master and Elantrin, and has Yolish magic that he can do X with.

Also, who is Hour?  I haven't read everything.  What book do we see him in?

[NameIess]

Just now, ShalladinForever said:

Also, who is Hour?  I haven't read everything.  What book do we see him in?

He meant Hoid, I believe.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

Just now, Ookla the Unnamable said:

He meant Hoid, I believe.

Oh, lol.  Yeah Hoid is probably more of a threat than any Radiant.

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, ShalladinForever said:

Also, who is Hour?  I haven't read everything.  What book do we see him in?

@Ookla the UnnamableUnnamable is correct

Autocorrect is dumb.

[NameIess]

I think that Mistborn are going to be weaker than Radiants, for narrative reasons. Mistborn are going to be able to be easily created through open metalminds, while Radiants will still require spren. 

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

Just now, Ookla The Frustrated said:

@Ookla the UnnamableUnnamable is correct

Autocorrect is dumb.

So what's up with you and Ookla the Unnameable?  I didn't even realize you were two different people!

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, ShalladinForever said:

So what's up with you and Ookla the Unnameable?  I didn't even realize you were two different people!

Well, I guess we're both just the smartest people on the shard, right @Ookla The Frustrated? 

 

[StanLemon]

I think there is some overstatement of the Herald's powers. Sure what Ishar does in RoW is quite impressive, but we have Kalak's own viewpoint that Thunderclasts have killed Heralds. While it's true that we haven't seen all of Odium's forces, we haven't seen anything that competes with TLR. Brandon is a fan of limits and I'm fairly confident we will soon (relatively speaking what with how long we can wait on a book) see what the limits of Herads and Bondsmiths are. One of the main reasons I think this is once we get into Era 4, if he just keeps making members of Roshar more and more powerful it will be hard to feel real tension between worlds.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, ShalladinForever said:

So what's up with you and Ookla the Unnameable?  I didn't even realize you were two different people!

 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

Well, I guess we're both just the smartest people on the shard, right @Ookla The Frustrated? 

 

The smartest people on the shard get the name of Ookla

It's really just a holiday for Brandon and Peter's Birthdays, and we will revert back to our standard names very soon.

[Bigmikey357]

9 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

I think there is some overstatement of the Herald's powers. Sure what Ishar does in RoW is quite impressive, but we have Kalak's own viewpoint that Thunderclasts have killed Heralds. While it's true that we haven't seen all of Odium's forces, we haven't seen anything that competes with TLR. Brandon is a fan of limits and I'm fairly confident we will soon (relatively speaking what with how long we can wait on a book) see what the limits of Herads and Bondsmiths are. One of the main reasons I think this is once we get into Era 4, if he just keeps making members of Roshar more and more powerful it will be hard to feel real tension between worlds.

I don't believe we're overestimating the Heralds. They would have to be super impressive for them to overawe Radiants who share their powers.  They have to be OP for the story to work. 

Unless we're giving TLR a Shardblade I don't see him taking out a 59 ton rock monster. Well, maybe if he could Leech the thing.  Dude is OP,  but it's mostly anti-personnel, not anti-environment.

I'm not sure there'll be a problem when it comes to the Big Ole ShardWar we'll get later. Roshar has the God of Hatred running all throughout their DNA. If I'm an unaligned planet in the Cosmere I'd be terrified to ally with Roshar. Scadrial's God is Harmony.  Sounds much nicer. Roshar will have no shortage of enemies I reckon. Plus,  with medallion technology the Scadrians have more power to offer to allies and less restrictions on said power. I mean you could have someone give you a necklace and instantly be magical or you could travel to some cold, stone covered hurricane factory, hang out for who knows how long in hopes of attracting a non-human companion that judges all your life choices, and get periodically peer reviewed to progress.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Unless we're giving TLR a Shardblade I don't see him taking out a 59 ton rock monster. Well, maybe if he could Leech the thing.  Dude is OP,  but it's mostly anti-personnel, not anti-environment.

72+ story tall monster

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

18 hours ago, StanLemon said:

I think there is some overstatement of the Herald's powers. Sure what Ishar does in RoW is quite impressive, but we have Kalak's own viewpoint that Thunderclasts have killed Heralds. While it's true that we haven't seen all of Odium's forces, we haven't seen anything that competes with TLR. Brandon is a fan of limits and I'm fairly confident we will soon (relatively speaking what with how long we can wait on a book) see what the limits of Herads and Bondsmiths are. One of the main reasons I think this is once we get into Era 4, if he just keeps making members of Roshar more and more powerful it will be hard to feel real tension between worlds.

You can't just brush off what Ishar did as impressive, it was straight-up OP.  He nearly stole the Stormfather away from Dalinar at will.  Ishar formed the Oathpact and trapped Odium on Roshar.  He can manipulate Connections at will and form new ones.  This has to be the most powerful ability of any non-Shard that we'e seen in the Cosmere so far.

[Aspiring Writer]

17 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Unless we're giving TLR a Shardblade I don't see him taking out a 59 ton rock monster. Well, maybe if he could Leech the thing.  Dude is OP,  but it's mostly anti-personnel, not anti-environment.

The guy can lift the thunderclast and throw him several miles, and if there is a large amount of metal nearby, he will break them apart.

 

11 minutes ago, ShalladinForever said:

You can't just brush off what Ishar did as impressive, it was straight-up OP.  He nearly stole the Stormfather away from Dalinar at will.  Ishar formed the Oathpact and trapped Odium on Roshar.  He can manipulate Connections at will and form new ones.  This has to be the most powerful ability of any non-Shard that we'e seen in the Cosmere so far.

It is OP, but it won't be useful if TLR kills him in the blink of an eye.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

The guy can lift the thunderclast and throw him several miles, and if there is a large amount of metal nearby, he will break them apart.

 

It is OP, but it won't be useful if TLR kills him in the blink of an eye.

I'm willing to bet that a Bondsmith could easily render any magic user powerless by tampering with their Connections.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, ShalladinForever said:

I'm willing to bet that a Bondsmith could easily render any magic user powerless by tampering with their Connections.

Yes, but no power, no matter how OP, will work if they can't use it before they're dead.

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

Just now, Aspiring Writer said:

Yes, but no power, no matter how OP, will work if they can't use it before they're dead.

Can't Dalinar essentially stop the flow of time and work within that void?  He stops Kaladin in midair and then proceeds to forge a Connection and show him a vision.  

 

Honestly, I don't think that Radiants are necessarily stronger than other forms of magic in the Cosmere, but Bondsmiths (particularly Dalinar) in the absence of Honor seem to have almost literally taken up the power of Honor itself.  Dalinar seems to be almost on the power level of a Shard.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

The guy can lift the thunderclast and throw him several miles, and if there is a large amount of metal nearby, he will break them apart.

Um, they're like 72 stories tall

And by my calculation would weigh about 151,200 pounds.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, ShalladinForever said:

Can't Dalinar essentially stop the flow of time and work within that void?  He stops Kaladin in midair and then proceeds to forge a Connection and show him a vision.  

 

Honestly, I don't think that Radiants are necessarily stronger than other forms of magic in the Cosmere, but Bondsmiths (particularly Dalinar) in the absence of Honor seem to have almost literally taken up the power of Honor itself.  Dalinar seems to be almost on the power level of a Shard.

That's Dalinar, not Ishar, and they need to be in the middle of a high storm, so not something they can just do.

 

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

Um, they're like 72 stories tall

And by my calculation would weigh about 151,200 pounds.

What's the maximum amount of strength and weight can TLR use?