Moash Appreciation Thread

[Nymeros Bloodsealer]

6 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

He wasn't exactly alone with Elohkar. There was a full-scale battle going on. If he tried talking to Elhokar, someone would have probably atacked him. hell, Kal might've recovered once he realized what moash was doing. Navani was wounded and alone. It's a false equivalence to compare the two.

Nah, its a valid equivalence. Moash wasn't a ninja, lol. He walked over, cut the guy down, then held a blade in his eye until his Stormlight was burned out and then had time to acknowledge and salute Kaladin all without being disturbed or attacked by anyone. If he wanted to spit some nonsense he could have unless you think Moash couldn't talk and stab at the same time.

Even disregarding that, when do we ever see Moash lie to anyone except in regards to keeping the assassination plot hidden? When does he ever just come up with lies to hurt someone's feelings?

Vyre is just a poorly written plot device; he doesn't feel like any continuation of the character that I had read of before.

 

5 hours ago, kaellok said:

In one situation Moash is supposedly acting without emotion.  In the other, he blatantly isn't.  This is an inconsistency for a character that has supposedly 'given away' his emotion to a godlike being.  However, I think that it is another instance that clearly shows there are limitations on that 'gift', where Moash's true character shines through--he wants vengeance for petty and selfish reasons, because he is a petty and selfish man. 

Read again through every scene that has Moash in it from WoR on.  Every action has, at its core, "I am right to think that lighteyes are evil by definition, and humans deserve to be punished for obeying them."  Even the aid that he provides to the Singers that were being punished for inadvertently helping Kaladin was rooted in this--he didn't help them because it was right to help them, he did so because he did not want to see the Singers acting like human lighteyes; and if Singers were to be no different than humans, then maybe that is a character trait that is learned, and so Moash's hatred is misplaced.

Moash was selfish but not petty at all. Wanting vengeance for the death of his parents against the man responsible for that death isn't petty.

Vyre is extremely petty though. He has a strong desire to kill Navani.....just because she's related to Elhokar? Because he doesn't think she's a good leader? How absurd. He acted with less nonsensical emotional framing as Moash and expressed no ill will towards Dalinar or Navani.

 

He helped the Singers because he felt sorry for them its clear through his thoughts. That's like saying Kaladin is selfish because he chose to help Bridge 4 to distract himself and push himself out of his depression. You can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time which is to say you can have many motives for making a specific decision.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Nymeros

[LuckyJim Vanisher]

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

Moash was selfish but not petty at all. Wanting vengeance for the death of his parents against the man responsible for that death isn't petty.

Vyre is extremely petty though. He has a strong desire to kill Navani.....just because she's related to Elhokar? Because he doesn't think she's a good leader? How absurd. He acted with less nonsensical emotional framing as Moash and expressed no ill will towards Dalinar or Navani.

 

He helped the Singers because he felt sorry for them its clear through his thoughts. That's like saying Kaladin is a selfish because he chose to help Bridge 4 to distract himself and push himself out of his depression. You can walk and chew bubble gum at the same time which is to say you have many motives for making a specific decision.

I agree with you that wanting revenge on Elhokar isn't petty. He's not just the guy who killed his grandparents, and he's not just a corrupt lord either. He's a king (well, prince at the time). What he did wasn't just corrupt or petty, it was a profound betrayal of the people he's supposed to lead. He killed two people for no other reason than that their lives were inconvenient to his friend's business. There's no excuse for what he did, and yet, when Moash confronts Kaladin during the assassination, Kaladin just says "it wasn't his fault". I don't see Moash's motivations as petty, but I think that was the intent when he was written.

After Rhythm of War, I'm not sure that Moash was never meant to be a nuanced or complex character in the first place. He was always meant to be a guy only out for his own satisfaction, and develop into the audience hate sink. He's written to do the most pain to Kaladin and the reader, so he does whatever he needs to do to achieve that. If he needs to be Kaladin's closest friend to make the betrayal sting that much more, we'll be told he is. If he needs to be undisturbed on an active battlefield so that he can kill a guy and salute his captain, no one will notice him. If he needs to be a cartoon villain who dresses in black and taunts his victims, that's how he's written.

Edited December 12, 2020 by LuckyJim

[Nymeros Bloodsealer]

34 minutes ago, LuckyJim said:

I agree with you that wanting revenge on Elhokar isn't petty. He's not just the guy who killed his grandparents, and he's not just a corrupt lord either. He's a king (well, prince at the time). What he did wasn't just corrupt or petty, it was a profound betrayal of the people he's supposed to lead. He killed two people for no other reason than that their lives were inconvenient to his friend's business. There's no excuse for what he did, and yet, when Moash confronts Kaladin during the assassination, Kaladin just says "it wasn't his fault". I don't see Moash's motivations as petty, but I think that was the intent when he was written.

After Rhythm of War, I'm not sure that Moash was never meant to be a nuanced or complex character in the first place. He was always meant to be a guy only out for his own satisfaction, and develop into the audience hate sink. He's written to do the most pain to Kaladin and the reader, so he does whatever he needs to do to achieve that. If he needs to be Kaladin's closest friend to make the betrayal sting that much more, we'll be told he is. If he needs to be undisturbed on an active battlefield so that he can kill a guy and salute his captain, no one will notice him. If he needs to be a cartoon villain who dresses in black and taunts his victims, that's how he's written.

Geez, I genuinely forgot that he was wearing an evil Windrunner costume.

Many readers including myself find Moash in Oathbringer to be complex, nuanced, and realistic in a way that most other Sanderson characters are not and it hard to believe this was done accidentally.

Frankly, I believe that Vyre's portrayal and role in this book was a direct reaction to the "Screw Moash" meme that the fanbase fell so in love with.

[trav Forescout]

my love for Moash took a huge hit. 

why does he care about Teft? 

is Moash second guessing his actions now? come on. 

Moash did nothing wrong.

Brandon did Moash dirty in this book. its not even funny. he was perfect and right. now hes depicted as evil. why? 

Edited December 12, 2020 by trav

[Nymeros Bloodsealer]

18 minutes ago, trav said:

my love for Moash took a huge hit. 

why does he care about Teft? 

is Moash second guessing his actions now? come on. 

Moash did nothing wrong.

Brandon did Moash dirty in this book. its not even funny. he was perfect and right. now hes depicted as evil. why? 

How did you feel about Moash murdering Jezrien?

[Nameless* Steel Inquisitor]

I've seen a lot of people saying that Moash is emotionless, but that is not true. Moash is without negative emotions.

[trav Forescout]

14 hours ago, Nymeros said:

How did you feel about Moash murdering Jezrien?

justified. 

Jezrien is a mass murderer. all the Heralds are. 

[Nymeros Bloodsealer]

23 hours ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

I've seen a lot of people saying that Moash is emotionless, but that is not true. Moash is without negative emotions.

The story shows otherwise.

[Nameless* Steel Inquisitor]

5 hours ago, Nymeros said:

The story shows otherwise.

How so?

[Nymeros Bloodsealer]

3 hours ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

How so?

He shows anger and hatred

Edited December 14, 2020 by Nymeros

[LuckyJim Vanisher]

I think "negative emotions" is too general a term. in this case, "giving away your pain" seems to be meant to rid a person of feelings that would get in the way of their passions, and help them "reach their potential". In this case, Moash is rid of his guilt, shame and sadness, so he can focus on his passion for vengeance (and hauling stones, I guess).

[trav Forescout]

he is supposed to be void of limiting emotions. thats probably vague on purpose.
it could mean anything. for him it means emotions that would hold him back in what he wants to do. whatever that is.

I really dislike what Brandon did with Moash. idk why any of this was even necessary. he already picked a side.
his regret for betraying Kaladin gave him depth. now hes hollow.
destroyed an otherwise good character for me.

I appreciate Moash, I don't appreciate Vyre.

[Nymeros Bloodsealer]

8 hours ago, trav said:

he is supposed to be void of limiting emotions. thats probably vague on purpose.
it could mean anything. for him it means emotions that would hold him back in what he wants to do. whatever that is.

I really dislike what Brandon did with Moash. idk why any of this was even necessary. he already picked a side.
his regret for betraying Kaladin gave him depth. now hes hollow.
destroyed an otherwise good character for me.

I appreciate Moash, I don't appreciate Vyre.

Totally agreed. Could be some sort of amazing payoff in book 5 but I doubt it.

[Nameless* Steel Inquisitor]

15 hours ago, Nymeros said:

He shows anger and hatred

I should have been more clear. As @LuckyJim said, it is the guilt, shame, and sorrow that are taken away from Moash. That's why he reacted so strongly to the anti-Odium rhythm, because it hurt his connection to Odium, allowing him to feel guilt for killing Teft.

[Nymeros Bloodsealer]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

I should have been more clear. As @LuckyJim said, it is the guilt, shame, and sorrow that are taken away from Moash. That's why he reacted so strongly to the anti-Odium rhythm, because it hurt his connection to Odium, allowing him to feel guilt for killing Teft.

He specifically indicates it takes his anger away from him.

[Nameless* Steel Inquisitor]

Just now, Nymeros said:

He specifically indicates it takes his anger away from him.

Okay. So where does he show anger?

[Nymeros Bloodsealer]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Unnamable said:

Okay. So where does he show anger?

When confronting Navani. What emotions lead to sadism?

[kaellok Truthless]

24 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

When confronting Navani. What emotions lead to sadism?

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

[Nymeros Bloodsealer]

19 hours ago, kaellok said:

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.

I'll admit it.....I laughed out loud