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So who will be Odiums champion


SzethIsBadAsHell

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On 12.12.2020 at 9:38 AM, GameOfGroans said:

This disqualifies children, Adolin, most likely Szeth too - it's highly unlikely Odium at this point would be able to corrupt them that far, and make them willing champions too.

On the other hand there is "something terribly familiar". The question is is it the familiarity of a person, or of a feeling (Thrill)?

I think he was seeing himself, possibly after becoming a Fused. That vision may simply have been a warning of what could have happened had he not refused Odium on Thaylen Field.

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i don't think Todium's champion will be Moash, because Odium clearly believes moash is incapacitated and has abandoned the idea of him being the champion

Quote

You should not tempt me today, Taravangian! Odium thundered. i have lost my champion AGAIN

this makes it clear that odium does not care for him as a champion any longer, but that might have changed because of Taravangians ascension

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4 hours ago, Ookla the Squid said:

i don't think Todium's champion will be Moash, because Odium clearly believes moash is incapacitated and has abandoned the idea of him being the champion

I was under the impression it was Kaladin that Odium was trying to have become his champion, not Moash.

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On 11/30/2020 at 2:06 PM, Ramona Tehradin said:

Ah, I must have mis-phrased my words. 

This is clearly hemalurgic incorporation.

I feel like the pursuer would've mentioned if he had to specifically kill people EVERY time he died. It's possible they're hemalurgy. If it is, this would be dope though. He probably took them from some of his other Fused, since that's the easiest source of other powers.

On 11/30/2020 at 0:29 AM, Hoids Imaginary Friend said:

Who is the unquestionably, no hesitation required best fighter amongst the Heralds?

TALN!! (Seriously, who doesn't want to see this guy fight?)

So I was totally on board with Taln being Honours Champion.. and I had a scary thought.. 

What if Taln did break.. 

And now I'm convinced Taln will be Odiums Champion.

After reading this, I think Dalinar and/or Navani will be working on curing Taln in book 5, setting him up as a Stoneward. That is, if Dalinar can get his head out of his own tight butt and figure out he shouldn't be his own Champion, despite the symbolism. Maybe he going to try to Connect Taln to himself and do some brainmeld stuff to gain his expertise? That could be interesting if that's in a Bondsmith's powerset

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2 hours ago, Roocifer said:

I was under the impression it was Kaladin that Odium was trying to have become his champion, not Moash.

no, Odium wanted Kaladin to commit suicide, because kaladin couldn't be defeated in combat, and kaladin wouldn't join odium and kill the people he wanted to save. i mean, his 3rd ideal was to protect even those he hates, i don't think he would kill those he loves

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  • 2 years later...
4 hours ago, Hmmm lies said:

What if... Taravangian. If Dalinar can be his own champion, why not Odium? Does anything stop him from manifesting in the Physical Realm? He could definitely win, as a Shard, unless Dalinar got Szeth with Nightblood instead.

I feel like competing with the powers of a shard has to be against the rules somehow, because it's such an obvious loophole that I don't think it would be satisfying. I do think it would be smart if Dalinar took Nightblood with him, because, like, that would be epic. I said this in a different thread once, but Dalinar with Nightblood in one hand and the storm father manifesting as a small, shapeshifting dagger in the other would be epic. However I think that Seth might be Odium's champion. He's fairly unstable at the moment, and as long as tOdium kept his identity secret (as in pretending he was still Rayse or something), he could convince Szeth to do a lot in the name of so called justice. Szeth holding Nightblood is really scary, and would probably give Dalinar a run for his money. 

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Still, I feel like Nightblood might object to that, and if it felt Szeth was being evil, it could take over Szeth and stab tOdium. I figure there is some sort of deal Odium made in the past that stops him from harming humans directly, and those deals as seen persist between Vessels, so yeah still unlikely that he can be his own champion. But if he could, what if Dalinar chose Wit, and since neither can harm the other, they just are at a standstill.

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1 hour ago, Hmmm lies said:

Still, I feel like Nightblood might object to that, and if it felt Szeth was being evil, it could take over Szeth and stab tOdium.

I thought that Nightblood killed people who considered themselves evil. If tOdium managed to convince Szeth that what he was doing was right, maybe if he managed to link it to the cleansing of Shinovar and Seth's mission, then I'm not sure if Nightblood would kill him. 

1 hour ago, Hmmm lies said:

But if he could, what if Dalinar chose Wit, and since neither can harm the other, they just are at a standstill.

That would be cool. A standstill of some sort seems likely to me. The one thing is that I don't think Dalinar gets to choose his own champion after he finds out Odiums, he has to choose them before. Dalinar doesn't think that tOdium will choose himself, and I doubt that Dalinar would just randomly choose Wit, especially if Dalinar is expecting a battle of strength and Wit can't harm people. 

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Well if Wit finds out about it (please don't spoil SA 5 preview chapters) he could tell Dalinar about it. Still, it is unlikely that either would predict he would choose himself. Or perhaps he could get an avatar of Autonomy, the two Shards are supposed to be friends. Still, is this really what tOdium wants? I would guess he would want to escape the contract as a whole.

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1 hour ago, Hmmm lies said:

I would guess he would want to escape the contract as a whole.

Yeah, I feel like he wants to find a way out. I'm not sure that I like the child champion theory, but I feel like the answer might be something similar. I hope the contest still has some sort of cool fight though. There's been so much build up that it might be disappointing if tOdium is just like "haha loophole" and then it's over.

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17 hours ago, Hmmm lies said:

What if... Taravangian. If Dalinar can be his own champion, why not Odium? Does anything stop him from manifesting in the Physical Realm? He could definitely win, as a Shard, unless Dalinar got Szeth with Nightblood instead.

The idea of the champion is that it is a person representing a side of the conflict. Dalinar doesn't represent himself - he represents Honor itself - he is bound to its Cognitive Shadow, which holds the biggest piece of Splintered Honor. Honor is the real side of the conflict. Odium representing himself isn't right, it'd probably be against the core idea of the champion.

And yes, it's theoretically possible for a Shard to manifest a physical body:

Spoiler

Argent

Can Shards manifest a physical body that can actually interact with the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

If they wanted to, yes.

Argent

Was that the thing that Odium did at the end of Oathbringer or was that just a projection?

Brandon Sanderson

Umm, it starts to be really difficult to define when you're getting to these points because they generally are such massive wells of Investiture themselves that it's like, is this thing they're creating, like, they are kinda, y'know, then bending the three Realms around the like spacetime with lots of gravity so is that a projection? Is that a real thing? Does it matter? Does that definition--

Argent

Oh! At that point they are almost the same thing, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, exactly.

JordanCon 2018 (April 20, 2018)

 

13 hours ago, The Sibling said:

I do think it would be smart if Dalinar took Nightblood with him, because, like, that would be epic.

You mean that would be stupid? The only thing Odium's champion would need to do is run around in circles avoiding Dalinar - Nightblood would consume Dalinar within a few short minutes.

13 hours ago, The Sibling said:

However I think that Seth might be Odium's champion. He's fairly unstable at the moment, and as long as tOdium kept his identity secret (as in pretending he was still Rayse or something), he could convince Szeth to do a lot in the name of so called justice.

I don't believe that. Szeth already rejected Odium in favor of Dalinar, Szeth's third Ideal is to follow Dalinar - Szeth becoming Odium's champion would be in direct violation of his personal code and the Ideal he had sworn. 

12 hours ago, Hmmm lies said:

Still, I feel like Nightblood might object to that, and if it felt Szeth was being evil, it could take over Szeth and stab tOdium.

No, Nightblood trusts in his wielder's judgment, he doesn't know what evil is. Moreover Szeth is immune to Nightblood's influence now, because he used it.

Spoiler

Questioner

How does Nightblood determine who is evil and who is not?

Brandon Sanderson

He is not very good at that, which is the joke. He needs someone else.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

 

Spoiler

Travis Gafford

End of [Words of Radiance], Szeth meets Nightblood. Nightblood normally makes people feel very sick as a test. He does not have this. And I'm curious if there's a reason for that other than you didn't want to end your book with Szeth puking in a corner.

Brandon Sanderson

What happens when you take Nightblood is based entirely on what your desire on how to use Nightblood is. If your intent does not align with Nightblood's created Intent, which is kind of a deep, Cosmere sort of thing. But, basically, if you want Nightblood because you can then destroy all of your enemies, you're not gonna match to that Intent. If your desire to use Nightblood is either: "I don't even want to use Nightblood," you're actually gonna be fine; or if your desire to Nightblood is matching what Nightblood's view is... And Szeth is, like, the perfect person, because Szeth only wants to do what he's told, and Nightblood kind of only wants to do what he's told. So there's, like, a perfect alignment. They're both messed up in the same way, and they both view the world in the same way, and it's hard to find a more perfect alignment than those two. And so, because of that, there was just no reaction. And that should be something that I wanted people to pick up on.

Miscellaneous 2022 (Nov. 28, 2022)

Warbreaker spoilers WoB:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Another note here is that Nightblood can sense where Vasher is. This is because Nightblood has ingested and fed off Vasher's Breaths in the past. When he does that, it connects him to someone. It's also, by the way, one of the secrets as to why Vasher doesn't get sick when holding Nightblood, even though he's a good person. It's not simply familiarity (though that is part of it). Nightblood has a built-in test. If he feeds off you and you survive, then you become somewhat immune to his powers.

Warbreaker Annotations (June 22, 2011)

 

12 hours ago, Hmmm lies said:

I figure there is some sort of deal Odium made in the past that stops him from harming humans directly

It's the restraints put onto him by Honor when Honor imprisoned Odium on Braize. RoW ch 112:

Quote

“Basically?” Dalinar pressed. “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.”
“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void."

 

12 hours ago, Hmmm lies said:

But if he could, what if Dalinar chose Wit, and since neither can harm the other, they just are at a standstill.

Then Wit would be dead, because Hoid is in direct violation of agreements he made. RoW ch 80:

Quote

“I can’t keep this bubble up much longer, I’m afraid,” Wit said. “He’ll notice if I do—and then he’ll destroy me. I have violated our agreement, which exposes me to his direct action. I’d rather not be killed, as I have seven more people I wanted to insult today.”

 

Spoiler

Questioner

Memory is tied to some level or portion of Spiritual Identity, or else Feruchemists would not be able to store it. So, Hoid lost memories at the end of Rhythm of War in his exchange with Odium. Would that mean part of his soul was stolen and then absorbed into Odium, and if so, what is stopping Odium from doing that with all of his enemies?

Brandon Sanderson

Basically, what Odium split off is stuff that Hoid is storing in excess Investiture. (Basically, it was Breaths, in Hoid’s case.) And this sort of thing, where this extra memory… One of the reasons that Hoid is able to function better than, perhaps, some other very long-lived individuals is: he has found out how to keep some of this Identity in, shall we say, SD cards made of Investiture. Imagine that sort of thing. So what Odium was stealing from Hoid was straight out of an SD card. Which means that it’s not nearly as deeply ripping into someone’s soul, and it is also not nearly as noticeable.

But the other thing is: Hoid is directly in violation of certain agreements that have been made, which therefore exposes him to… He is lacking protections. As you’ll notice in the end of Book Three, where he’s like, “I need to be careful, because I am in violation.”

And so, there’s a couple things going on here. Number one, much more easy to access those memories. Number two, Hoid’s in direct violation and under no protections of any sorts of agreements and things like this.

Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022)

 

Edited by alder24
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I think Hoid will be Todium's champion. I dont think original Odium would have done this, but Todium has seen the opportunity. 

Surely Odium can offer Hoid something that he wants. Add that to all the minor betrayals from Hoid to Jasnah and Hoid's "I would watch this world burn" comment, and I think we have a pretty foreshadowed solution. 

Hoid can't kill and basically cant be killed, so the battle will come out in a way that the contrsct didn't expect. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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19 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I think Hoid will be Todium's champion. I dont think original Odium would have done this, but Todium has seen the opportunity. 

Surely Odium can offer Hoid something that he wants. Add that to all the minor betrayals from Hoid to Jasnah and Hoid's "I would watch this world burn" comment, and I think we have a pretty foreshadowed solution. 

Hoid can't kill and basically cant be killed, so the battle will come out in a way that the contrsct didn't expect. 

Interesting idea but I think it is unlikely since: (spoiler for the sunlit man)

Spoiler

It will be weird for Sigzil to not mention this when confronting Hoid.

 

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2 hours ago, Yaganim said:

Interesting idea but I think it is unlikely since: (spoiler for the sunlit man)

  Hide contents

It will be weird for Sigzil to not mention this when confronting Hoid.

 

I do admit that your spoiler makes things less likely, but I also think Hoid betraying Dalinar could have stopped being top-of-mind for that character anymore and also could have helped create a bigger wedge between them. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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  • 1 month later...
1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

What about Kaladin's little brother as Odium's champion. Could a void spren pretend to be an honor spren? Bond him and get him to agree to a contest of champions as if it were a game?

How? It only takes his mother to say no and he won't agree. He needs to be a willing champion and he has no reasons to do that. Voidspren can't just bond him - it took months of preparation, growing hatred and desperation and a physical manifestation of Thrill to bond Voidspren with humans during the OB battle. With Oroden there is none of that. He is a happy, loved kid, with no issues (hopefully forever). 

Gavinor, Elhokar's son, at least has a reason and strong feelings attached to it - avenge his father's death. He hates Moash.

I'm still not a fan of the child-champion theory. It's a big let down in my opinion.

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Your points/ objections are good. I was just thinking that what a brilliant way to get Kaladin and Dalinar on opposite sides. One of the early chapters has Kaladin's brother in it. That is what made me think of it. The thing is, if it is a child then it is a stalemate, which the old Odium didn't want. Perhaps the new Todium doesn't mind if the fighting continues. But it seems like the Radiants keep getting stronger, whereas the Fused are all on the brink of insanity. 

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2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That still leaves a basic question unmentioned. As Odium wants to be out of the contest, will there be a contest and hence champions at all?

Yes, there has to be. The deal between Rayse and Dalinar carries through to Taravangian and Dalinar. Both agreed to send a willing champion on the tenth day of the new month to the top of Urithiru. If Odium were to not send a champion, he would be in violation of the contract and would then be in Dalinar's power. I'm not sure how Odium would convince Dalinar that they should both break the contract, or even if that could work. 

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There is always the chance that Taravangian convinces Dainar he already won. Rayse and Taravangian have distinctly different motivations. Taravagian ultimately sided with Odium because he though that was the best they could do. Save one city of humanity with all of the knowledge they had amassed. He essentially was trying to create a Uritheru. Rayse said he would have to destroy the world in order to not leave his investiture behind. Taravangian said he was going to "save them all." It is a matter of what mankind's existence looks like. 

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