Inconsistencies

[+Oltux72]

Just now, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

Then that specific conversation was with the same Mraize. Or it could have been a lightweaving. Or identical twins. 

That Mraize had mentioned Thaidakar in person, while sending her on that very mission. Of course, it could have been a Lightweaving, but how did he know the need existed?

Just now, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I just realized, have we ever seen a twin in the cosmere? At all? Any twins? 

Vin?

[danex]

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

but how did he know the need existed?

They might just have the lightweaving tied to a sphere, and they’re just always in disguise?

10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Vin?

Mayyybe...coppermind just mentions that they were siblings and that Vin was older. Doesn’t say whether the sister was actually a twin or not, and it’s been too long since I’ve read MB to remember if it’s in the books.

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

They might just have the lightweaving tied to a sphere, and they’re just always in disguise?

If they could do that, why is a Lightweaver so valuable?
If this is a Lightweaving on the other end, it pretty much implies that the conection is not to a Ghostblood member.

 

[StormingTexan]

Besides these two instances Shallan mentions Mraize has used the name Thadakar before when reading Iyatil's notes. 

Quote

 

Circled several times on one page at the end of the list was the word “Thaidakar” with the note, He leads them. But who is he? The name seems a title, much like Mraize. But neither are in a language I know. Shallan was pretty sure she’d heard Mraize use the name Thaidakar before.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

Even if she does not know at the time he is the leader of the GB Mraize later confirms it to her. The Seon conversation is weird and I think it is more than just a reconfirmation for the readers. I do not think Shallan was talking to the real Mraize. It is also weird that Shallan "guessed" this when she clearly knew bit may be reading too much in to that. 

[+robardin]

20 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I agree that’s definitely a possibility. It just feels odd. I mean, the obvious answer is, “you mentioned him multiple times. Something wrong with your memory?”

“What do you know of him?” makes more sense.

Also: Shallan is an idiot for volunteering info. She should have just pointed out that Mraize had mentioned Iyatil reporting to Thaidakar.

Lightweavers in general do not seem to be good spies. Hoid being the obvious exception.

I agree, Mraize saying "what do you (think you) know about Thaidakar [beyond my occasional name dropping]?" would have made more sense; then again it's not like Shallan's ever perked up and asked, "Wait, who's this Thaidakar?" before. He may have noticed her lack of reaction (even curiosity) to that name and had previously assumed it was out of ignorance ("yet another tidbit of mystery Mraize will eventually talk about"), and now suspects it might be due to some other source of information.

And Lightweavers, of course, make excellent spies, as shown by Shallan's multiple identity switches in the mission in Kholinar, and then later gaining access to Ialai. What Shallan is bad at is lying when she hasn't pre-planned out a reason or a way to do so. She isn't cagey-sneaky-crafty by nature (while another LW in Ishnah probably is).

Remember, a Lightweaver's fundamental character trait, what moves them along their Ideals, is that they must confront deep lies they have told to themselves, about themselves. Which makes me really curious what it is that Vathah, Gaz, and Ishnah have had to admit to themselves in forming a Nahel Bond. Or what Childhood Shallan had told Testament as her Truths. (I guess we don't know what Ideal any of Vathah, Ishnah, or Gaz are on - they don't seem to have Blades, or at least, haven't shown them).

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 minutes ago, robardin said:

I agree, Mraize saying "what do you (think you) know about Thaidakar [beyond my occasional name dropping]?" would have made more sense; then again it's not like Shallan's ever perked up and asked, "Wait, who's this Thaidakar?" before. He may have noticed her lack of reaction (even curiosity) to that name and had previously assumed it was out of ignorance ("yet another tidbit of mystery Mraize will eventually talk about"), and now suspects it might be due to some other source of information.

And Lightweavers, of course, make excellent spies, as shown by Shallan's multiple identity switches in the mission in Kholinar, and then later gaining access to Ialai. What Shallan is bad at is lying when she hasn't pre-planned out a reason or a way to do so. She isn't cagey-sneaky-crafty by nature (while another LW in Ishnah probably is).

Remember, a Lightweaver's fundamental character trait, what moves them along their Ideals, is that they must confront deep lies they have told to themselves, about themselves. Which makes me really curious what it is that Vathah, Gaz, and Ishnah have had to admit to themselves in forming a Nahel Bond. Or what Childhood Shallan had told Testament as her Truths. (I guess we don't know what Ideal any of Vathah, Ishnah, or Gaz are on - they don't seem to have Blades, or at least, haven't shown them).

The Lightweavers as an Order are good spies. As individuals... not so much. They need a lot more training in that art. Compared to the real spies they could use a lot more work.

That conversation just feels off though, especially with how Mraize seemed to assume Shallan knew Thaidakar was his boss back in part one. And I doubt it’s an accident. It’s not obvious (especially considering the major revelation in that conversation) but when you put the two conversations side-by-side it becomes clear that something doesn’t quite add up.

[WhiteLeeopard]

Like it was pointed out, Shallan is wildly unreliable as a narrator. The inconsistencies I'd like to believe are on purpose but I'm a little concerned they could be editing errors.

The GB so far seem to be an order to dance a lot of complex steps for little gain, a group of people convinced they are first level players when they are not even close to real power. Their biggest strength is knowledge, and they barely if ever use it. I know some will disagree with me, but you can't put Dalinar, or Navani or even Kaladin next to the GB and say the GB actually have more power over what happens in Roshar than those three characters to put out some examples. 

The GB's biggest claim to importance this book was: kill a has been no-one cared about, put someone to spy on Dalinar (basically everyone has spies on the KR, just the KR don't have spies on anyone since the Lightweavers are useless at it) and try to kill a Herald which after Jethrien's death is not too important at first glance (it may be important due to the stuff of BAM later on, but we'll see). However, the GB are very interesting to the readers since they bring in Cosmere easter eggs (or in this book easter mountains).

Regarding how terrible Lightweavers are as spies I agree. I spent all RoW thinking the KR needed an order of spies and assasins, both to find problems and to eliminate them. Sadly if the LW are the best order they have for that purpose they may need to give up the whole area of spionage. Shallan and her group spent 1 whole year in Urithiru next to T who all the Kholins (as such Shallan by extension too) knew was a traitor, and Shallan didn't even bother to take a look at him. There were some whispers that the Dustbringers were unreliable, but again Shallan did not bother to infiltrate them nor have one of her squires do it. One whole order of KR and the king of Jah Keved were problems a little bit bigger than rusting Ialai. 

Knowledge falls into Shallan's lap due partly to her powers, but to say she is good at gathering information is like saying Jasnah is good at diplomacy. She does something that faintly resembles it, but at the end of the day has little clue of how to do it. 

Edited December 1, 2020 by WhiteLeeopard
Some more thoughts

[Kingsdaughter613]

29 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Like it was pointed out, Shallan is wildly unreliable as a narrator. The inconsistencies I'd like to believe are on purpose but I'm a little concerned they could be editing errors.

The GB so far seem to be an order to dance a lot of complex steps for little gain, a group of people convinced they are first level players when they are not even close to real power. Their biggest strength is knowledge, and they barely if ever use it. I know some will disagree with me, but you can't put Dalinar, or Navani or even Kaladin next to the GB and say the GB actually have more power over what happens in Roshar than those three characters to put out some examples. 

The GB's biggest claim to importance this book was: kill a has been no-one cared about, put someone to spy on Dalinar (basically everyone has spies on the KR, just the KR don't have spies on anyone since the Lightweavers are useless at it) and try to kill a Herald which after Jethrien's death is not too important at first glance (it may be important due to the stuff of BAM later on, but we'll see). However, the GB are very interesting to the readers since they bring in Cosmere easter eggs (or in this book easter mountains).

Regarding how terrible Lightweavers are as spies I agree. I spent all RoW thinking the KR needed an order of spies and assasins, both to find problems and to eliminate them. Sadly if the LW are the best order they have for that purpose they may need to give up the whole area of spionage. Shallan and her group spent 1 whole year in Urithiru next to T who all the Kholins (as such Shallan by extension too) knew was a traitor, and Shallan didn't even bother to take a look at him. There were some whispers that the Dustbringers were unreliable, but again Shallan did not bother to infiltrate them nor have one of her squires do it. One whole order of KR and the king of Jah Keved were problems a little bit bigger than rusting Ialai. 

Knowledge falls into Shallan's lap due partly to her powers, but to say she is good at gathering information is like saying Jasnah is good at diplomacy. She does something that faintly resembles it, but at the end of the day has little clue of how to do it. 

The editing question is why I wanted one of the Beta readers to weigh in on this.

The GBs don’t care about most of Rosharan politics. They aren’t interested in control. They don’t want Odium free, but that’s the limits of their interest in ‘local politics.’

They didn’t want Kalak killed; they wanted him captured so they could interrogate him and possibly experiment on him. And I’m not so sure they lost either; if Shallan had gone through with the attack Kalak would be dead. He’s still alive, which means they still have a chance at learning what he knows. And there is a Scadrian in the group... and not just any Scadrian.

“Felt, one of the House Venture chief spies, climbed into the carriage, nodding his hawkish, mustached face respectfully to Elend, then Jastes.”

A spy. A spy who served Elend, who comes from the Final Empire, who saw Kell’s death, who has proven himself capable before. If Felt is a GB sleeper agent I would not be remotely surprised.

And Shallan is about to lead her group to the very thing the GBs wish to find. 
 

Lightweavers may make good spies in theory. The problem seems to lie in the fact that none of the current batch have much training.

[Nebelskind]

On 11/29/2020 at 0:08 PM, Karger said:

She knows he exists.  Mraize is checking to see if she knows anything else.  I agree Shallan is actually a pretty terrible liar for a Lightweaver.

I think she mostly lies to herself.

 

hopefully her sneakiness gets better after reabsorbing Veil and her spy knowledge. For all of a year, but still.

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Debarra said:

Could it be an unamussed Thadikar themselves fishing for information?

Weirdly, this was where my head was going too. But I thought it was less ‘fishing for information’ and more goading Shallan into going after BAM so she can lead the GBs there.

[GameOfGroans]

I tend to see such details simply as proof that authors of huge fantasy books don't have photographic memory and can't always make everything fit perfectly. Although, in Sanderson's case, such an attitude often means I miss a lot of foreshadowing. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, GameOfGroans said:

I tend to see such details simply as proof that authors of huge fantasy books don't have photographic memory and can't always make everything fit perfectly. Although, in Sanderson's case, such an attitude often means I miss a lot of foreshadowing. 

Which is why I want to know if this came up in Beta. Because that’s where it would have come up. If it came up and was left unchanged it’s intentional. If it never came up, then it may just be a mistake.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Pagerunner]

While not quite the same, I've been struck as I've been going through the book again (did a day 1 read, still working through a slower in-depth reread) about several sentences that appear in two places, almost word-for-word. There's a line about how spren don't die if they're killed, they reform in the Cognitive Realm; it gets dropped in two different passages. (There were at least two more that I can't remember off the top of my head; I wasn't taking notes on the phenomenon until I got to the third one.) And in a similar vein, in Lasting Integrity, we've got Shallan observing how if stuff gets too far "up" from any one face, it gets caught in the normal Shadesmar gravity; but soon afterwards, Adolin spends some time wondering about why the buildings are all so short and what would happen if you got too far up, as if the reader hadn't just seen that in action a few pages earlier.

The stuff I noticed is more out-of-universe, yours was in-universe, but I think both are ultimately due to a lack of editing. When an author finally makes it big, you hear a lot of the criticism mention "editors don't even try"; Robert Jordan, George Martin, Brandon Sanderson, I've heard it pretty frequently for all of them. Usually, it comes up for bigger-picture story grievances; how does the publisher let him get away with dragging these sequences out or putting the character down such-and-such a path. But where I think it actually hits is in the smaller stuff. Brandon does have a new Tor editor (she appeared on one of the release day YouTube videos), and the timeline for editing is as fast as the publisher can get it. What's been striking me on this book (and maybe it's been there for previous books, and I just didn't notice it) was the lack of polish on little things like this.

It's not stuff that'll ruin the book, by any means. And with the way Dragonsteel has been treating the leatherbounds, using them to catch up on ten years of crowdsourced editing, I think it matters even less in the long run, since the release day book isn't the "definitive edition." So I wouldn't be surprised if Mraize's lines got tweaked at some point down the road, if they were just an oversight that got lost in a 1200 page book.

[Kingsdaughter613]

36 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

While not quite the same, I've been struck as I've been going through the book again (did a day 1 read, still working through a slower in-depth reread) about several sentences that appear in two places, almost word-for-word. There's a line about how spren don't die if they're killed, they reform in the Cognitive Realm; it gets dropped in two different passages. (There were at least two more that I can't remember off the top of my head; I wasn't taking notes on the phenomenon until I got to the third one.) And in a similar vein, in Lasting Integrity, we've got Shallan observing how if stuff gets too far "up" from any one face, it gets caught in the normal Shadesmar gravity; but soon afterwards, Adolin spends some time wondering about why the buildings are all so short and what would happen if you got too far up, as if the reader hadn't just seen that in action a few pages earlier.

The stuff I noticed is more out-of-universe, yours was in-universe, but I think both are ultimately due to a lack of editing. When an author finally makes it big, you hear a lot of the criticism mention "editors don't even try"; Robert Jordan, George Martin, Brandon Sanderson, I've heard it pretty frequently for all of them. Usually, it comes up for bigger-picture story grievances; how does the publisher let him get away with dragging these sequences out or putting the character down such-and-such a path. But where I think it actually hits is in the smaller stuff. Brandon does have a new Tor editor (she appeared on one of the release day YouTube videos), and the timeline for editing is as fast as the publisher can get it. What's been striking me on this book (and maybe it's been there for previous books, and I just didn't notice it) was the lack of polish on little things like this.

It's not stuff that'll ruin the book, by any means. And with the way Dragonsteel has been treating the leatherbounds, using them to catch up on ten years of crowdsourced editing, I think it matters even less in the long run, since the release day book isn't the "definitive edition." So I wouldn't be surprised if Mraize's lines got tweaked at some point down the road, if they were just an oversight that got lost in a 1200 page book.

The problem is that Brandon ALSO does this intentionally very often. In Mistborn the epigraphs didn’t match the words in Sazed’s copy. And that was important. A handful of inconsistencies there turned out to be Kell playing around behind the scenes in HoA. (Also in WoA, but those ended up not working.) Odds are the same will be true of Era 3.

So if an author has a history of using minor in-world inconsistencies to hint at big plot twists, I’m going to be suspicious. I would like to know if it came up in beta though.

[Pathfinder]

On 11/29/2020 at 10:20 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

An unusually good memory. But it’s still a weird comment. If I tell you about someone, I’m more likely to recall it than you are. Mraize told Shallan about Thaidakar; it’s very odd that he doesn’t seem to remember doing so.

Just a little addition. Her unusually good memory is only with images. She commented how she has difficulty even with written words. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

30 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Just a little addition. Her unusually good memory is only with images. She commented how she has difficulty even with written words. 

True. But she does have a very good memory for random facts and details.

[Jofwu]

On 12/1/2020 at 6:01 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Which is why I want to know if this came up in Beta. Because that’s where it would have come up. If it came up and was left unchanged it’s intentional. If it never came up, then it may just be a mistake.

Beta readers are restricted from commenting on details about what the beta draft was like, so there's probably not a straight answer to be given on that. And I doubt any beta readers are fully aware of every comment that was made during that process. Peter has mentioned that there word count of beta feedback exceeded the word count of the book itself.

Also isn't necessarily a beta-level error. It's possible, for example, that there were not no "Thaidakar" references during beta and Brandon got a lot of "Who is this?" comments, which drove him to add more references while forgetting to rephrase the ending. And then it didn't get caught in gamma. Or something like that.

It definitely looks like an error to me, in any case. Worth reporting in the typos thread for sure, at least.

On 11/30/2020 at 2:17 AM, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

All of the Mraize-Shallan interactions are a little weird TBH. I found another inconsistency somewhat similar to this. 

Copied from my notes:

I don't see any issues with this one though?

The "prison of three planets" is proceeded by:

Quote

Radiants, spren—anyone Connected to Roshar is bound by these laws, and cannot travel farther than Ashyn or Braize.

Rosharan's can see Ashyn and Braize in the sky, presumably. It makes sense they would have names for those planets and be aware that they are planets.

Damnation is a totally separate concept that she would know through Vorinism. The thing she ISN'T clear on is the connection between them--that Braize IS "Damnation"--and that's what Mraize is clarifying.

Ash does the same thing with Jasnah in chapter 17 when Jasnah refers to Damnation as "another realm of reality". Though admittedly I can't tell if Jasnah was out of the loop there, like Shallan, or if she is just internally rolling her eyes at Ash being pedantic.

[StanLemon]

On 11/30/2020 at 1:49 AM, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

Ok, here me out here, what if there are two Mraizes. It would fix most of the inconsistencies, and we know that Mraize is a title, not a name. 

There's a thought. *puts on tinfoil hat* What if Mraize is actually just an identity taken up by multiple Kandra.