Inconsistencies

[Kingsdaughter613]

So I just noticed this. In part one Mraize and Shallan are talking and we get this conversation:

“Iyatil has reported to Master Thaidakar,” Mraize said, “and he has accepted—after some initial anger—that we will not be able to control the Oathgates. I explained that there at least is a calming wind in this, like the riddens of a storm. With Dalinar controlling the Oathgates, he can prosecute the war against Odium.”

“And that helps your cause?”

“We have no interest in seeing the enemy rule this world, Shallan. Master Thaidakar wishes only to secure a method for gathering and transporting Stormlight.” Mraize held his broam up again. Like a miniature sun beside the real one.

 

Then in Part Five we have this:

“Perhaps. Can you handle my master? Can you handle her master?”

“Thaidakar?” Shallan guessed.

“Ah, so you’ve heard of him?”

Yes, Mraize. You only mentioned him several times. 
 

More seriously... That comment makes no sense. Of COURSE Shallan has heard about Thaidakar; Mraize name dropped him TWICE when sending her on this mission. And why is Shallan ‘guessing’? She knows Iyatil reports to Thaidakar.

Beta readers, do you know if this was noticed and kept in intentionally? Because it’s a pretty big inconsistency.

If it isn’t an accident, which it probably isn’t, then I have a couple of guesses.

Shallan guessing: she suspects Mraize is referring to Thaidakar, but wants to be certain. So it’s an educated guess. Or the word guess was in error, but that’s a fairly minor one.

Mraize’s statement: he’s drawing attention away from what he just said. He wasn’t referring to Thaidakar as Iyatil’s master, but another high ranking GB on Roshar. It was a slip, and Shallan just gave him the perfect way to cover it up. Notice how quick he is to let her know Thaidakar  isn’t actually on Roshar.

Thoughts?

[Karger]

13 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Thoughts?

It could be a "what do you think you know about him?"  Basically he asks an open ended question in the hopes of getting Shallan to reveal what she knows which she immediately does.  Remember Shallan has "betrayed" him and clearly has access to people/information he does not understand fully.  If I were Shallan I would pretend to have carried out the mission but said that the spirit had left the dagger the way Kelek said it would.  In that case I could still get some information before revealing what happened but I suppose Shallan was just tired.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Just now, Karger said:

It could be a "what do you think you know about him?"  Basically he asks an open ended question in the hopes of getting Shallan to reveal what she knows which she immediately does.  Remember Shallan has "betrayed" him and clearly has access to people/information he does not understand fully.  If I were Shallan I would pretend to have carried out the mission but said that the spirit had left the dagger the way Kelek said it would.  In that case I could still get some information before revealing what happened but I suppose Shallan was just tired.

Shallan is actually pretty bad at subterfuge.
 

I could definitely see that, but it’s an odd kind of phrase considering that she should know of him. 

[Karger]

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I could definitely see that, but it’s an odd kind of phrase considering that she should know of him. 

She knows he exists.  Mraize is checking to see if she knows anything else.  I agree Shallan is actually a pretty terrible liar for a Lightweaver.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Just now, Karger said:

She knows he exists.  Mraize is checking to see if she knows anything else.  I agree Shallan is actually a pretty terrible liar for a Lightweaver.

I agree that’s definitely a possibility. It just feels odd. I mean, the obvious answer is, “you mentioned him multiple times. Something wrong with your memory?”

“What do you know of him?” makes more sense.

Also: Shallan is an idiot for volunteering info. She should have just pointed out that Mraize had mentioned Iyatil reporting to Thaidakar.

Lightweavers in general do not seem to be good spies. Hoid being the obvious exception.

[Karger]

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

“What do you know of him?” makes more sense.

It is what he is asking but he does not want to risk accidentally telling Shallan what he is doing.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Just now, Karger said:

It is what he is asking but he does not want to risk accidentally telling Shallan what he is doing.

Yeah, but it still feels odd. I’ll accept it as a possible explanation for now, but I hope someone can get some clarification from Brandon.

[+Oltux72]

14 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

“Perhaps. Can you handle my master? Can you handle her master?”

“Thaidakar?” Shallan guessed.

“Ah, so you’ve heard of him?”

Yes, Mraize. You only mentioned him several times.

Alternate explanation - it was not Mraize on the other end of this conversation.

[Kingsdaughter613]

53 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Alternate explanation - it was not Mraize on the other end of this conversation.

Oooh. Now that would be a twist.

[SixthIdeal]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Alternate explanation - it was not Mraize on the other end of this conversation.

Ooh cool idea. I think we would have been told if the parshendi had kidnapped Mraize while he was in the tower, but maybe the Oathgate deal went through and he made it offworld. Then someone not in Roshar was speaking for him.

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 minutes ago, SixthIdeal said:

Ooh cool idea. I think we would have been told if the parshendi had kidnapped Mraize while he was in the tower, but maybe the Oathgate deal went through and he made it offworld. Then someone not in Roshar was speaking for him.

Or another GB is using the Seon.

[+Oltux72]

29 minutes ago, SixthIdeal said:

Ooh cool idea. I think we would have been told if the parshendi had kidnapped Mraize while he was in the tower, but maybe the Oathgate deal went through and he made it offworld. Then someone not in Roshar was speaking for him.

If you cannot be sure that it was Mraize then you are sure of almost nothing. That Shallan talked with abother Ghostblood is a guess. In fact, how sure are we that the box Shallan took to Shadesmar was the original? We don't even know that the dagger was the real thing. Shallan did not use it.

The only other thing we really know for sure is that whoever was on the other end of the conversation had a Seon. Even that it showed Mraize's face means nothing. Several parties on Roshar alone are capable of Lightweaving. Alternatively there may be a way to make a Seon transmit a false image.

[Rorzikel]

Honestly, I think it’s probably that Brandon knows that they’re big books separated in release dates by several years and wants to remind readers of who a minor character mentioned a few times but never actually seen onscreen is. To us it might seem obvious and stick out, but a casual reader might not even remember the name Thaidakar at all. It’s a little “As you know” exposition, yes, but I expect it’s a strategic choice made by Dragonsteel.

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 hours ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

Honestly, I think it’s probably that Brandon knows that they’re big books separated in release dates by several years and wants to remind readers of who a minor character mentioned a few times but never actually seen onscreen is. To us it might seem obvious and stick out, but a casual reader might not even remember the name Thaidakar at all. It’s a little “As you know” exposition, yes, but I expect it’s a strategic choice made by Dragonsteel.

Except this was in the same book. That’s why it stuck out to me. If you’re reading straight through it stands out.

It’s not like something that was mentioned in OB; it happened during a plot relevant conversation that the characters had not that long ago. It’s not that hard to remember - and plenty of readers will go back to double check the original conversation anyway.  

So it just seems very odd.

[Honorless]

We, as readers, notice the name Thaidakar. It's more difficult to remember names when you're hearing them and when you have no idea who the name refers to. Shallan just has a good memory.

[Kingsdaughter613]

12 minutes ago, Honorless said:

We, as readers, notice the name Thaidakar. It's more difficult to remember names when you're hearing them and when you have no idea who the name refers to. Shallan just has a good memory.

An unusually good memory. But it’s still a weird comment. If I tell you about someone, I’m more likely to recall it than you are. Mraize told Shallan about Thaidakar; it’s very odd that he doesn’t seem to remember doing so.

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

An unusually good memory. But it’s still a weird comment. If I tell you about someone, I’m more likely to recall it than you are. Mraize told Shallan about Thaidakar; it’s very odd that he doesn’t seem to remember doing so.

From Mraize's end, I thought he was just fishing for how much she knew and what her source of information was, which she provided.

[danex]

All of the Mraize-Shallan interactions are a little weird TBH. I found another inconsistency somewhat similar to this. 

Copied from my notes:

Quote

Back into Cosmere stuff again. And waitwaitwaitwaitwait, Shallan (as Radiant) recognizes that Ashyn and Braize are other planets in the Rosharan system. (When she says “A prison as large as three planets”) I thought Rosharans only knew Braize as Damnation and Ashyn as some kind of Tranquiline Halls. 

…

Okay, yeah, like 2 pages later, Mraize says “Braize, the place you call Damnation”. So does Shallan know about the structure of the Rosharan system or what???

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

33 minutes ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

All of the Mraize-Shallan interactions are a little weird TBH. I found another inconsistency somewhat similar to this. 

Copied from my notes:

 

Something is off with their interactions.

[ftl]

Possibly Mraize is used to repeating himself for Veil, Radiant, and Shallan separately? Since we know the personalities don’t always share info.

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 minutes ago, ftl said:

Possibly Mraize is used to repeating himself for Veil, Radiant, and Shallan separately? Since we know the personalities don’t always share info.

Ooh! Good point.

[danex]

Ok, here me out here, what if there are two Mraizes. It would fix most of the inconsistencies, and we know that Mraize is a title, not a name. 

[Geoffray]

I'm not there yet (but it's not a big deal for me to read some spoilers), but, maybe we shouldn't trust ANY of what is "written" when it's a Shallan chapter and she's alone (i.e without any other POV). I mean, she's an unrealiable narrator over 9000 ^^'. For me, nothing that she hear, sees, say, smell is a truth. It's to be taken with a grain of big big salt.

 

But, all explanation in this topic also work (i'm partial for the "repeating" thing from Mraizes or the "two" Mraizes).

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

Ok, here me out here, what if there are two Mraizes. It would fix most of the inconsistencies, and we know that Mraize is a title, not a name. 

The face was shown. Before Mraize knew that the box had been opened.

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Something is off with their interactions.

Yes. A hypercompetent operative falling for a trick that goes back to the Bronze Age?

[danex]

17 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The face was shown. Before Mraize knew that the box had been opened.

Then that specific conversation was with the same Mraize. Or it could have been a lightweaving. Or identical twins. 

I just realized, have we ever seen a twin in the cosmere? At all? Any twins?