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Strengths and weaknesses of RoW


Ba-Ado-Fisherman

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Rhythm of War is by no means the best Stormlight book, in my opinion.

 

1. the pacing is poor if you ask me.
 

 Leaving Shadesmar out of part 3 entirely really hurt that arc. I actually really enjoyed the arc in part 2, even if it dragged a little bit.  The relationship between Shallan and her personas, as well as their relationships with Adolin are really well done.  But leaving them at the end of part two, and not coming back for so long left the arc feeling rushed by the end.  The resolution didn’t feel truly realized.  I would have been happy to see an even longer book if that meant getting a more fleshed out Shadesmar arc.

 

2. Not enough Dalinar 

I get it.  Oathbringer was all about Dalinar, and it makes sense to have him take a step back for a book.  It really does say a lot though, just how incredible the short amount of time we had with Dalinar was however.  I’m sure we’ll see a ton of him in book 5.

 

strangely, RoW felt too long and too short at the same time.  I’ve seen many others say the same thing.  There were aspects of the story that NEEDED to be explored, such as Navani and the Sibling, as well as Venli/Singer stuff.  I had very few issues with either of those Arcs.  And I understand that writing a series this massive, with books that reach 450,000 words, are impossible to pace correctly.  It says a lot about how highly I think of Brandon as a writer, that I expect more from him than he should be reasonably expected to deliver.

 

Unfortunately, I don’t think we’re going to get another Stormlight book that is as tight and well-paced as WoR.

 

that being said, the emotional pay-offs and character moments in this book brought me to tears several times.

 

1. Kaladins fourth Ideal was a beautiful moment that felt truly deserved.  He suffered for an entire book, and the breakthrough moments with Wit and Tien were very well written.  Brandon continues to explore things like depression and mental illness with expertise.  
 

2.  I’m not sure why, but I was brought to full on tears when Venli used her powers for the first time.  It was wonderful to experience the deep connection that singers have to Roshar.  They are part of this world in a way that not even Shards can comprehend.  Overall, I was very moved with Venli’s arc throughout the entire book.

 

3.  That last chapter... oh my.  Eshonai got a true send off in this one.  I have a profound new respect for the Stormfather after reading this.  
 

I have many more thought, (TARAVANGIAN WHAT), but overall I was very satisfied with the book.  As a penultimate entry in a 5 book arc, I was prepared for this type of read.  
 

story-7/10

characters-9/10

pacing-5/10

world-building-10/10

ending-8/10 (Rayse really didn’t sit well with me after agreeing to those rust terms of contest with Dalinar)

overall-7.8/10.  When compared to most books, I’d say add 1.5 to make it a solid 9.4/10. 
1. Words of Radiance- 9.8/10

2. Oathbringer- 8.8/10

3. The Way of Kings-8.4/1010

4. Rhythm of War-7.8/10

Edited by ShalladinForever
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17 minutes ago, ShalladinForever said:

2. Not enough Dalinar 

I get it.  Oathbringer was all about Dalinar, and it makes sense to have him take a step back for a book.  It really does say a lot though, just how incredible the short amount of time we had with Dalinar was however.  I’m sure we’ll see a ton of him in book 5.

I agree with you. There wasn't much Dalinar, but I'm not sure if there is really anything more to write about him because most of his problems with his past and whatnot have been resolved. On the other hand, Shallan still has her triple persona problem and Kaladin still had his problem with freezing in combat and not accepting that he can't save everyone. Also there was Venli who thought she was a mistake. So in the end it's probably better for Sanderson to have focused on them more.

 

24 minutes ago, ShalladinForever said:

1. Kaladins fourth Ideal was a beautiful moment that felt truly deserved.  He suffered for an entire book, and the breakthrough moments with Wit and Tien were very well written.  Brandon continues to explore things like depression and mental illness with expertise.  

I loved this part as well. It brought Kaladin's journey altogether, starting as a surgeon, to spearman, to bridgeman, to bodyguard, to Radiant.

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1 hour ago, Blood Of My Fathers said:

I loved this part as well. It brought Kaladin's journey altogether, starting as a surgeon, to spearman, to bridgeman, to bodyguard, to Radiant.

I know right? A surgeon, a soldier, a bridgeman then a bodyguard, then a Radiant, then Highmarshal and then back to surgeon and then something unfigurable and then the hero/the hope people need, then the storm eternal and then finally Kaladin Stormblessed reborn. Totally worth dying for. 

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11 hours ago, ShalladinForever said:

1. the pacing is poor if you ask me.

 

 Leaving Shadesmar out of part 3 entirely really hurt that arc. I actually really enjoyed the arc in part 2, even if it dragged a little bit.  The relationship between Shallan and her personas, as well as their relationships with Adolin are really well done.  But leaving then at the end of let two, and not coming back for so long left the arc feeling rushed by the end.  The resolution didn’t feel truly realized.  I would have been happy to see an even longer boom if that meant getting a more fleshed out Shadesmar arc.

Couldn't agree more. I found myself constantly itching to get back to the Shadesmar plot, and was a bit let down when I realized we weren't going to get much more. It's got to be tough for Brandon though when there's so much to cover. Honestly, this book almost seemed like setup for book five. I'm sure we'll get something fantastic.

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12 hours ago, Ruin's Scariest Koloss said:

Couldn't agree more. I found myself constantly itching to get back to the Shadesmar plot, and was a bit let down when I realized we weren't going to get much more. It's got to be tough for Brandon though when there's so much to cover. Honestly, this book almost seemed like setup for book five. I'm sure we'll get something fantastic.

I did feel the Shadesmar plotline was underserved, but the book is massive enough and I'm not sure what more depth was needed there. Certainly not 3-5 more chapters of plotting Adolin's legal defense in Lasting Integrity, LOL.

Mainly what I felt off was that, after all that angst Shallan went through - and Veil's unusual override - to select her LW crew to accompany the Stump, Zu, and Felt, all of them were just sent off to "bring word back" to Dalinar of what Adolin, Shallan, and Pattern had agreed to do, unmentioned for the rest of the book.

I'm hoping the 4.5 novella (Horneater) sees Rock entering Shadesmar (possibly exiled there, to join that clan that is always in Shadesmar, maybe as a kind of honor guard on the CR side of Cultivation's Perpendicularity?) and doing something with them that was simply off-screen in RoW. Though even in that case, I'd have liked a kind of hint as to that having happened (like how in RoW they obliquely refer to the trip to Aimia that earlier acquired a cache of Soulcasters and Cord's Shardplate, that are depicted in the Dawnshard novella.)

Edited by robardin
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1 hour ago, robardin said:

I did feel the Shadesmar plotline was underserved, but the book is massive enough and I'm not sure what more depth was needed there. Certainly not 3-5 more chapters of plotting Adolin's legal defense in Lasting Integrity, LOL.

Mainly what I felt off was that, after all that angst Shallan went through - and Veil's unusual override - to select her LW crew to accompany the Stump, Zu, and Felt, all of them were just sent off to "bring word back" to Dalinar of what Adolin, Shallan, and Pattern had agreed to do, unmentioned for the rest of the book.

I'm hoping the 4.5 novella (Horneater) sees Rock entering Shadesmar (possibly exiled there, to join that clan that is always in Shadesmar, maybe as a kind of honor guard on the CR side of Cultivation's Perpendicularity?) and doing something with them that was simply off-screen in RoW. Though even in that case, I'd have liked a kind of hint as to that having happened (like how in RoW they obliquely refer to the trip to Aimia that earlier acquired a cache of Soulcasters and Cord's Shardplate, that are depicted in the Dawnshard novella.)

Actually, Felt stuck around. Which I suspect may be rather important considering who Thaidakar is heavily implied to be. He’s either going to be our info dump or a sleeper agent. Or both!

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The Shallan/Adolin arcs had a number of great scenes but I also felt that there were some stumbles, mainly towards the end. These stumbles felt particularly annoying because they felt quite glaring to me and also easy to fix. I might comment on the other arcs later, but for now I'll just focus on the Shallan/Adolin ones:

Part 1: No particular complaints. On the minor side I'd say it was a shame we never found out why Ialai seemed to trust Shallan enough to tell her some things. Slightly more significantly, it's a shame the book never explicitly clarified exactly why Shallan started going down the path she's on 6 months ago - what caused/triggered this? I'd guess it's because her memories about Testament started to come back strongly enough.

Part 2: Very close to perfect but the whole "Shallan tries to find the spy" thing felt a little too low stakes. It mattered to Shallan but not so much to the reader.

Part 3: All the tension that gets built up in Part 2 goes to waste with the gap here. It's a huge gap too - from chapter 36 to 75. About a quarter of the whole book. Adding 1 or two Adolin/Shallan chapters in Part 3 would have been worth it, I think.

Part 4: In Part 2 we see Adolin worrying about about whether he can succeed at all and takes a big risk when it looks like he's about to fail. That had ramped up the tension nicely but the trial itself feels weak - it feels like a farce and therefore not very threatening. In short, the tension I felt from Adolin in Part 2 somewhat fades away when it would likely have been better to do the opposite. I don't want to try to write the book myself and give specific suggestions but I think there were a number of options to do this. On a minor note, I think it might have been a bit better to make clear that Adolin wanted to do this himself and didn't want to rely so much on others (eg Shallan), since Shallan's lack of involvement with Adolin's situation feels a bit off. On another minor note, it might have been interesting to tie Adolin's strained relationship with his father into his arguments - I felt that while I was reading the book it could have made a good argument if Adolin told the honorspren how he still loves and trusts his father despite how he killed Adolin's mother / his own wife.

On the Shallan side of things, the tension is very much there. Shallan is clearly falling apart and it feels like the chull is about to hit the fan. The scene where Shallan and Adolin are cuddling together and then Shallan suddenly goes Formless is deliciously dark and high tension. While Shallan's plot twists and reveals are fairly rewarding I felt that they were undercut by adding too much new much complexity to sort out. For example, the text never makes it clear when Shallan "killed" Testament - I presume it's just after her mother's death but if so then this should have been stated and I think we should have seen more of Shallan's immediate reaction at the time to make it more real and help tie it into Shallan's overall problems.

I also felt that the overall arc was cut a bit short and just felt rushed in general - the last we see of Shallan, she's probably being confined with Kelek. We never see how exactly that bit got resolved, even if we could guess. Imagine showing Shallan and Kelek stuck in the same room but hearing loud noises coming from the courthouse and them worrying what it means. I think it might have been better to end Part 4 with Shallan starting to tell Adolin about Testament.

Part 5: The little scene with Shallan near the end was very welcome and very tasty but it was really frustrating having to wait so long to get it. Might have been nice to hint earlier on in the arc that some more was coming - eg a little scene from Wit (and perhaps Jasnah) talking to Shallan (and perhaps Adolin) and it ends with Wit asking Shallan to pass on a message to Mraize when she calls him. 

On a minor note, since we know that Shallan and Wit at least have been in contact, I'm sure Shallan would have told Wit about the situation. But we never see Wit tell Jasnah or Dalinar about this. That have helped connect the various arcs together better - there's a bit of a risk that Adolin's success might feel a bit superfluous due to other events.

On an overall note, I was somewhat frustrated at the lack of Shallan herself. While I felt that the personas were written a LOT better this time, I also wanted to read Shallan's perspective more - I don't find Veil and Radiant to be all that interesting. It's rather frustrating overall that we went through two books (or almost three since this started from the very end of WoR) with Shallan being in particularly bad mental shape due to being forced to remember her mother's death. That's half the entire series so far and it feels a bit of a waste of such an interesting character.

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Weaknesses:

I think the Flashbacks needed to be spread throughout. It killed the Pacing of the later parts since we had about the same amount of flashbacks just spread throughout less of the book. 
 

Kaladin and Navani needed a lot of trimming for Part 3 and 4. I felt some of those chapters dragged a lot and get repetitive. 
 

Venli needed something bigger to do as main character. She ultimately sucks in Stormlight as her big moment and it’s largely overshadowed by the Heavenly Ones switching sides and fighting. Compare that to Kaladin saving Dalinar, Shallan fixing  the Oathgate and Dalinar uniting the realms. 
 

Personal gripe. Kaladin Lost his lashings and I thought this would be a great moment for him to train and become competent in Adhesion. Instead he’s just given a Fabrial which works the same. Just give him his powers if you wanted to do this. 
 

Strengths: everything else. 

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For me the biggest weakness, by far, was that throughout the occupation of Urithiru, I never felt like the tower was in any real danger. Brandon was so careful to have the invasion and occupation occur with a minimum of bloodshed, with all the depowered/comatose Radiants properly cared for, most tower residents being free to go about their daily lives, Navani being well cared for, Kaladin being able to allude pursuit pretty easily. Plus the singers' victory was based entirely on switching the tower's defenses from anti-Fused to anti-Radiant, and it was pretty obvious that once the heroes found a way to switch it back, they'd win pretty handily. It all just felt very safe and low stakes, which really shouldn't be the case when most of the book is focused on the villains taking control of the heroes' home base.

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As far as pacing I felt the same about Shadesmar but I think it was more the gap of when it was picked back up again that bothered me more. I am not sure I really wanted to see more time or more depth there I think we got what we needed. The Emul plot line however did feel like it lacked some depth. Not necessarily more Dalinar but I really thought we were going to get to see more KR orders using their powers in battle and we did no. I really wanted more Jasnah too. 

The Interludes seemed a little weird to me this time. There were a few good one churi churi and of course all the Taravangian ones but I guess I am more used to the format of the previous books where these are not so engrained with the main story and more random. 

The flashbacks just were not interesting at all to me besides the one Venli palace scene and the last chapter. 

These are all very minor complaints though I felt like the character moments in this book are some of the best so far. The Taravangian twist is also one of Brandon's best. I also loved all the Cosmere bombs. 

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2 hours ago, Debarra said:

The biggest weakness for me was oddly the structure of the book. I never really felt it was Venlis book or felt any particular attachment to her or the Willshapers. The book would have worked better as Navani's book or something.

Yeah, I went into reading it thinking that there was going to be a lot of Venli and Listener stuff, except it really is Kaladin's or Navani's book. There is some Venli, but not enough to make the entire focus of the book on her.

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On 12/1/2020 at 5:12 PM, THEFITHSHARD said:

Could you elaborate further on what you meant when saying WoR

was well paced, and tight?

personally i believe this was one of the best books

but would like to hear what you meant

When I go back and read Words of Radiance, I always get completely sucked in to the plot.  It feels like something exciting happens in every chapter, and there is always mystery and a constant sense of dread leading up to the ending.  In WoR, we get to see our main characters from WoK meet and interact, which Brandon does in a fantastic way.  

 

The action in WoR is spaced out extremely well.  We don't get a ton of it, but it always feels like it comes at the perfect time.  We get the fight between Szeth, Kaladin, Adolin, and Dalinar.  We get the scenes of Szeth going on a rampage around Roshar.  We get the duel scenes with Adolin, as well as the best action scene of the entire series IMO: The duel with Adolin and Kaladin vs. 4 Shardbearers.  And then we get the awesome climax.

 

Shallan's arc in WoR is the best Shallan we've ever gotten IMO.  We get introduced to her ability to split into separate personas, and we get to see her interact with the Ghostbloods.  I also enjoyed the relationship between Shallan and Adolin the most in WoR.  By my username, you should tell that I strongly ship Shallan/Kaladin, and the chapters with those two in the chasms were amazing for me.

 

Overall, there isn't a single chapter in WoR that I don't love.  The book is massive, but I can read it easily in two days.  It's honestly a perfect book in my opinion.

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