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THEORY: Honor is Not Dead - [Discuss]


Wit Beyond Measure

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"Honor is dead" ... "But I'll see what I can do."
--Kaladin, WoR 664

Honor died, but we have several clues in RoW indicating that he may be re-emerging. 

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“The Almighty cannot die. People can die. Heralds can die. Even Honor could die. But Honor, people, and Heralds will all live again—transformed, Soulcast through His power.”

--Goedeke, RoW Chapter 22 (no page #s yet in Kindle!!!) 

 

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“Honor is not dead so long as he lives in the hearts of men!”

--Notum repeats over and over, RoW Chapter 87 

 

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“Honor…” Navani whispered. “Honor is not … dead. He lives inside the hearts … of his children.…”

--RoW Chapter 110

We've known since OB that Dalinar has taken up Honor's perpendicularity.  Rayse believes Dalinar ascended, but I don't think Dalinar is the one ascending, actually.

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His eyes were glowing like a Radiant’s, his face a mask of pain and anguish, but the eyes … she swore the light had a yellowish-red cast to it. Like … like …

...

The Pursuer charged forward. The soldiers followed, then shied away. They wouldn’t face Stormblessed and those eyes of his, so the Pursuer was left with no choice but to engage.

--Venli, RoW Chapter 106

Like ... like ... like Odium.  Everywhere we see red and gold together, it is Odium.  Perhaps this is merely an indication that Kal is close to becoming a Child of Odium at this particular moment, howling after losing Teft and then these eyes.  At the same time, Odium-red eyes have previously always been caused by a bond with voidspren, which seems not to be the case here.  And why would soldiers fear a child of Odium, like themselves?

Instead, perhaps these colors point to Kaladin's coming ascension.  Honor's robes are gold, as well.  Moash's continual insistence surrounding Kaladin's immortality certainly points to ascension.

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“Kaladin can’t be killed,” Vyre said. He knew it, sure as he knew the sun was hot, and that it circled Roshar forever.

--RoW, I-4

 

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“With all due respect to him,” Jasnah said, “Kaladin is just one man—and one you relieved of duty before we left.”

She was correct, of course. Common sense dictated that one man was nothing against an army of Fused. Yet Dalinar wondered. Once, in the warcamps, he’d argued with Kaladin’s soldiers who had set up a vigil for the young Windrunner—then presumed dead. Dalinar had been proven wrong that time. Now, he found himself possessing some of the same faith as those soldiers.

--Dalinar, RoW Chapter 101

 

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“You will kill him,” Raboniel said.

“No enemy can kill Kaladin Stormblessed,” Moash said.

“You promised that—”

“No enemy can kill Stormblessed,” Moash said. “He is a force like the storms, and you cannot kill the storms, Fused.”

--RoW Chapter 102

 

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"There are two paths open to him. One is to take the route I did, and give up his pain. The other is the route he should have taken long ago. The path where he raises the only hand that can kill Kaladin Stormblessed. His own.”

--Moash, RoW Chapter 105

 

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“Run,” Kaladin told [the Pursuer]. “Flee. I’ll chase you. I will never stop. I am eternal. I am the storm.”

--RoW Chapter 105

Finally, Tara-Odium notices a "growing" and "verdant" power, which is clearly pointing toward Cultivation.  However, just as the back of RoW falsely implies that Navani will be a Lightweaver with its half-dozen references to truths and lies, I believe this most obvious allusion to Cultivation is not the one actually intended.  Verdant can also mean brand new and budding.  Growing points to something new.

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Taravangian was startled as he became aware of something else. A growing power nearby, visible only to one such as him. A godly power, infinite and verdant. He was not alone.

--RoW Chapter 114

 

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Wow. 

That was well put. I am not going to go deep into it, but I got strong vibes that honor is reviving too, I just did not link it with Kal, and all the times they say he's more than just a man... It is definitely looking interesting, and the texts you selected do feel like foreshadowing

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There is also this (and I know you could argue about it just being literary style), that Kaladin during his fight with the Pursuer was feeding off the faith the crowd had in him (almost like stormlight, almost like a spren becomes what men imagine it to be in their hearts). Finally, you could say that Kaladin's movement was being powered by Odium, but on Roshar only Heralds have moved that fast. So the Stormfather got some of Honor's power, merged with his cognitive shadow, but I think Kaladin might have infused with his soul, something akin to an Honor Blade, part of Tanavasts soul. If Honor was shattered in Alethkar, perhaps part of it latched onto Kaladin. Does that remind you of any other series?? 

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2 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

It would be interesting if the shard of bonds tended to reform those bonds on its own. 

 

Given Adhesion is apparently an Honor-unique power, this is possible.

Or if a highly invested individual who could Connect things could mend Honor. 

 

Either way, I'm certain Honor had a plan other than just "I guess I'll die then".

Maybe I've read too much Sandman, but I'm not entirely convinced Honor didn't choose to die, in a sacrifice. It would fit a growing theme of SA and certainly RoW, with Tien, Maya, the Recreance etc.

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I find the concept of " honour isn't dead as he lives in the hearts of men" really interesting because honour is personified in SA but having him shatter, it depersonified honour. It would be cool to think honour decided to die so he could ultimately win by reaching the hearts of every person, therefore outmatching odium. It would also parallel what odium did to create the fused. 
therefore the game plan was for honour to reach every human to outmatch odium and defeat him?

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Fascinating. 

I can see that happening in book 5 for sure and several WoBs have stated that: 

  • Shards are power of Adonalsium i.e Powers of creation. They are same energy which a particular universe is built on and if they are energy, then we know it cannot be ever destroyed...only transferred. 
  • Shards, if splintered, cannot be actually destroyed. WoBs can confirm it. 
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LITTLE WILSON

You mentioned that "half-ish" of the existing Shards are whole at the time of Shadows of Self. Is that counting splinters?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No. Splintered is one of the ways they are not considered whole. (He's thinking about Dominion and Devotion and says that's the opposite of whole)

(- AKA Absorbed into something else?)

LITTLE WILSON

I was thinking about shattered versus splintered, and going with shattered with Devotion and Dominion. And then splintered would be Honor separating a piece of himself to create the spren (pre-Shattering).

BRANDON SANDERSON

On Scadrial, Ruin and Preservation did the same thing. Their bodies are part of the world. Things on the spiritual realm don't matter where they are in relation to each other. All those spren are still Honor, when he was alive. Does that make sense? Yes, they're splinters of Honor, but they're still Honor. It's not like he's diminished, because his whole essence is the world. There's no diminishing that. So we're talking about the fracturing of the mind and killing of the Shard. That's the distinction between whole and not whole.

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MASON WHEELER

You've said that Splintering a shard is essentially the same thing as the shattering of Adonalsium, repeated on a smaller scale.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah.

MASON WHEELER

And a while ago, someone asked you if Splintering was permanent or reversible, and you said that it can be reversed.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah.

MASON WHEELER

And shard holders tend to take the name of the shard they hold. So you've got Sazed, who goes by "Harmony" now, after taking up Ruin and Preservation. That makes me wonder, does he hold two shards... or one?

BRANDON SANDERSON

You could really answer that either way. The distinction is a really subjective one, and you could say that he's holding both shards, or that he holds one single Harmony.

We know that Hoid's plan are to assemble something together but that's not Adonalsium probably since scholars of cosmere argued it would be dangerous, the intent began as a useless purpose. Whatever Hoid's plan are....let's keep them aside. 

We know that destroyed Shards can be reforged or combined together to form themselves again or a brand new dishard like Harmony. In Mistborn Era 1, we saw destruction of Ruin and Preservation but they their 'essence' was combined to form Harmony. It means Shards might get splintered but the energy within cannot be destroyed every. The followed letters from RoW confirm it which I had mentioned in a separate threat. 

Spoiler
  • To combine powers would change and distort who Odium is. So instead of absorbing others, he destroys them. Since we are all essentially infinite, he needs no more power. Destroying and Splintering the other Shards would leave Odium as the sole god, unchanged and uncorrupted by other influences.

Honor is not dead. His vessel is destroyed- his holding confinement as a Shard is gone but his essence, his energy is still influential in Rosharan system. Tanavast, the vessel is dead but Honor isn't hence he can be reforged. We all are directing our eyes at Dalinar to ascend and take this Shard but I don't believe that'd be the case. He might fail and someone has to take its place...someone who's bonded to an ancient, secretive and highly coveted Honorspren and is perhaps the most honorable man alive in Roshar currently.

Edited by Ramona Tehradin
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7 hours ago, Ramona Tehradin said:
  Reveal hidden contents
  • To combine powers would change and distort who Odium is. So instead of absorbing others, he destroys them. Since we are all essentially infinite, he needs no more power. Destroying and Splintering the other Shards would leave Odium as the sole god, unchanged and uncorrupted by other influences.

Honor is not dead. His vessel is destroyed- his holding confinement as a Shard is gone but his essence, his energy is still influential in Rosharan system. Tanavast, the vessel is dead but Honor isn't hence he can be reforged. We all are directing our eyes at Dalinar to ascend and take this Shard but I don't believe that'd be the case. He might fail and someone has to take its place...someone who's bonded to an ancient, secretive and highly coveted Honorspren and is perhaps the most honorable man alive in Roshar currently.

This could imply Kaladin then because he did bond with the oldest honour spren. Syl was around before the Recreance therefore could insinuate that Kaladin could reach ascension. 

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1 hour ago, Eris said:

This could imply Kaladin then because he did bond with the oldest honour spren. Syl was around before the Recreance therefore could insinuate that Kaladin could reach ascension. 

More importantly, he has weird Highstorm based powers that seem unique and is the Son of Tanavast.

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Interesting tidbit of info: Sanderson responded to a question on Reddit a few days ago, which asked if Honor is really dead or if the shard can be reclaimed. His response was that this will be answered in book 5. (And...I just spent way too much time going back through the massive ROW thread to find it. Here is the question and link: )

Q: The really question is, given the death of Rayse, is honor really dead? Or is his essence out there, still available to be claimed?

A: I will answer this for certain by the end of Book Five. For now, RAFO.

And there was this WOB from an event a few days ago:

Q: What would happen to a spren if someone with a Nahel bond Ascended?

A: It's a good question, and it is also a RAFO.

These seem to imply that someone with a nahel bond might try to reform/take up the shard of Honor in the next book. Pre-ROW I assumed this would be Dalinar, but post-ROW I'm leaning towards Kaladin (for the reasons pointed out in the thread, along with a few other small quotes and hints in the book that made me go hmm while reading). I'm not sure why or how he would be in the situation to attempt this, or if it is possible at all, but I am certainly curious to find out.

 

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On 11/26/2020 at 6:47 AM, Wit Beyond Measure said:

Finally, Tara-Odium notices a "growing" and "verdant" power, which is clearly pointing toward Cultivation.  However, just as the back of RoW falsely implies that Navani will be a Lightweaver with its half-dozen references to truths and lies, I believe this most obvious allusion to Cultivation is not the one actually intended.  Verdant can also mean brand new and budding.  Growing points to something new.

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Taravangian was startled as he became aware of something else. A growing power nearby, visible only to one such as him. A godly power, infinite and verdant. He was not alone.

--RoW Chapter 114

So, the rest of what you have posted is great, but the page after this one Cultivation is talking to Toadium.  Growing can also point to something becoming larger, even if only by appearance from it coming closer.  I think that this is a stretch too far.

To help fuel your theory, I would also like to point out two conversations Jasnah and Hoid have had.  In the epilogue of WoR, where Hoid says that salvation will be found in the hearts of men.  And then again in RoW:

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"Because he knows--same as I'm telling you--that the contest won't only be about who can stab the hardest with their spear."

"What will it be about then?"

"Same thing it's always been about, Jasnah," Wit said.  "The hearts of men and women."

Rhythm of War, Ch. 99 "Not Bound", p.1076 hardcover

 

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On 11/26/2020 at 8:47 AM, Wit Beyond Measure said:

“Kaladin can’t be killed,” Vyre said. He knew it, sure as he knew the sun was hot, and that it circled Roshar forever.

--RoW, I-4

Wait - does the sun circle Roshar? I'm like 90% sure it's the other way around. This feels like it might be Brandon being cheeky or something - Moash knew Kal can't be killed, sure as he knew... some other things that he doesn't actually have the level of understanding to know. I don't think this is evidence against the theory because there's DEFINITELY something weird going on with Kal and Honor. My guess is that he can die, but the result of his death will not be exactly what was expected.

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Regarding Kaladin's golden glow: Odium likes to portray himself as a golden being in a golden realm, but his core essence and light color are violet.  I wonder if gold color might be a more generic indicator of divinity in general, or perhaps even a fusion of Honor and Odium's powers.  The one time we saw Tanavast (during Dalinar's vision at the end of tWoK) he was wearing clothing made of gold.  Also the gloryspren (which seem closely tied to Honor and Bondsmiths) are gold in color.

Thus I think Kaladin having that glow is a sign that he's tapped into the Rhythm of War.  Indeed Navani is surprised shortly thereafter to hear the Rhythm of War inside the Tower, and identifies it as coming from the humans and some singers working together to protect the unconscious Radiants after being inspired by Kaladin's display.

e: Nohadon also wore gold robes and had gold threads in his hair!

Edited by Subvisual Haze
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1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Regarding Kaladin's golden glow: Odium likes to portray himself as a golden being in a golden realm, but his core essence and light color are violet.  I wonder if gold color might be a more generic indicator of divinity in general, or perhaps even a fusion of Honor and Odium's powers.  The one time we saw Tanavast (during Dalinar's vision at the end of tWoK) he was wearing clothing made of gold.  Also the gloryspren (which seem closely tied to Honor and Bondsmiths) are gold in color.

Thus I think Kaladin having that glow is a sign that he's tapped into the Rhythm of War.  Indeed Navani is surprised shortly thereafter to hear the Rhythm of War inside the Tower, and identifies it as coming from the humans and some singers working together to protect the unconscious Radiants after being inspired by Kaladin's display.

e: Nohadon also wore gold robes and had gold threads in his hair!

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ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)
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Play/PauseQuestioner

So, we know in Mistborn there is this running... you can say, motif about Ruin being associated with the color black and Preservation with the color white, we see a lot of very subtle and a lot of very unsubtle...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yes.

Questioner

Is such a motif present in any other books? I think I see it in Stormlight.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, in Stormlight you can see it. So, Ruin is a red-gold... not Ruin, Odium. Odium is a red-gold. Honor is a blue-white and Cultivation is green, obviously. So, those motifs stay, when you... when you see a red or a gold, it's a reddish gold sort of thing, either of those colors, it's going to be Odium.

Questioner

Even when we something we might suspect to be outside influence in other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Not necessarily, because red can also mean corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere. So, I would call Odium's real color gold, because you're going to see red when Odium is corrupting other things, so...

Questioner

It's not necessarily on Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not necessarily Odium. So, you're asking for the invading force on Mistborn, it doesn't necessarily mean Odium because it's red. So red just kind of means corruption. I've talked about that before, so. Not necessarily, not definitive, yeah.

@Subvisual Hazenot sure if you'd seen this WoB before.  There are some...wobbly factors that this doesn't take into consideration, like the color of Voidlight, but that might be due to the interaction with the gem (similar to how Stormlight-infused gems don't glow Blue unless its a sapphire).

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Agreed and you my friend are SPOT on

the foreshadowing is blatant

I am of the mind honor  the vessel is dead

but... that shard...

will someone become the new vessel?

hence the budding quote by our lovely todioum

this new honor is being forged somehow, and of course is taravangians number one threat?

 

to me its dalinar

 

 

i do agree with u on the venli part.. his eyes reminding her of someone..

 

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