Lift, the trans icon

[Koloss17]

Ok, so lift is not trans, so far as I can tell. But her nightwatcher wish portrayed the feeling of physical dysphoria very well. Not wanting the body to change is pretty much what physical dysphoria is. I related with lift so hard on that part. Did anyone else relate?

[Kingsdaughter613]

5 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Ok, so lift is not trans, so far as I can tell. But her nightwatcher wish portrayed the feeling of physical dysphoria very well. Not wanting the body to change is pretty much what physical dysphoria is. I related with lift so hard on that part. Did anyone else relate?

I think you’re missing the point. Lift’s issue isn’t that her body is changing - it’s what the change represents. She doesn’t want to grow up. She doesn’t want to stop being her mother’s little girl. If her body didn’t change but her mind did she would still have all her problems.

The physical change is just the most obvious, and she feels like she can enforce some control over that, like by measuring and binding herself. So that’s what she focuses on.

But her real issue is that she’s maturing mentally. She wants her psychology to stay the same. She doesn’t want to grow up. It’s not her body; it’s her mind.

Honestly, I think she’s a terrible choice for any trans association. Lift wants her mind to stay the same and is projecting that desire onto her body. Trans individuals want their body to reflect their mind.

One of the things trans activists are fighting is the belief that trans individuals are projecting psychological difficulties onto their bodies.  Since that is EXACTLY what Lift is doing, conflating her with the trans experience is a bad idea, as it can lead to the propagation of harmful stereotypes and beliefs.

I can definitely see where her experience can reflect elements of the trans experience, especially where she feels betrayed by her body. But since her issues stem from a source that is too often mistaken as a ‘cause’ for transsexuality it is best not to conflate them.
 

(Specifically, Lift has something more akin to Peter Pan Syndrome with elements of Body Dysmorphia. Since Dysmorphia and Dysphoria are confused far too often, it’s better not to conflate them period. Note that Peter Pan Syndrome is not recognized by the DSM.)

 

[Greywatch]

5 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Ok, so lift is not trans, so far as I can tell. But her nightwatcher wish portrayed the feeling of physical dysphoria very well. Not wanting the body to change is pretty much what physical dysphoria is. I related with lift so hard on that part. Did anyone else relate?

I've seen people say exactly this! The "not wanting to develop the secondary sex traits" are what I saw pointed to, and that makes a lot of sense!

@Kingsdaughter613 Actually, in this case, I think you may have missed the point here. I don't think OP misunderstands what's going on with Lift, but saying that her dysphoria is really relatable to the trans audience. People who are seeing something relatable here aren't necessarily arguing that Lift is 100% trans, and are perhaps not looking to be "corrected".

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I've seen people say exactly this! The "not wanting to develop the secondary sex traits" are what I saw pointed to, and that makes a lot of sense!

@Kingsdaughter613 Actually, in this case, I think you may have missed the point here. I don't think OP misunderstands what's going on with Lift, but saying that her dysphoria is really relatable to the trans audience. People who are seeing something relatable here aren't necessarily arguing that Lift is 100% trans, and are perhaps not looking to be "corrected".

I did say I could definitely see where the experiences correlate. There’s a reason Dysmorphia and Dysphoria are often confused. My problem is using a somewhat Dysmorphic character as an ‘icon’ for Dysphoria when that association is harmful IRL. 
 

I guess what I’m trying to say is that this should be phrased better so as to make the distinction clear. It’s good to have characters to relate to, but we should be careful not to propagate harmful beliefs.

[Greywatch]

I don't find anything harmful about finding this experience relatable to what trans people experience.

[Kingsdaughter613]

9 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I don't find anything harmful about finding this experience relatable to what trans people experience.

There isn’t. Relating to her experience is completely fine and valid and I think it’s wonderful that people can. And if you can, you should. 100%.

Using her as an ‘icon’ could be harmful however. She’s not a good representative because of the RL conflation of the two disorders (without even getting into the trans-agism debate.) In a perfect world people wouldn’t make that error, but this isn’t a perfect world and there are a lot of people who can’t seem to get the difference. (I think it’s obvious, but then I’m in the field.)

I just think the wording should be phrased differently. Like: Lift’s feelings correlate really well to my personal experience. Which they don’t for me, but do for the OP, which is wonderful. I’m glad that they can find their experiences reflected in Lift.

[Greywatch]

28 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Using her as an ‘icon’ could be harmful however. She’s not a good representative because of the RL conflation of the two disorders (without even getting into the trans-agism debate.) In a perfect world people wouldn’t make that error, but this isn’t a perfect world and there are a lot of people who can’t seem to get the difference. (I think it’s obvious, but then I’m in the field.)

I just think the wording should be phrased differently. Like: Lift’s feelings correlate really well to my personal experience. Which they don’t for me, but do for the OP, which is wonderful. I’m glad that they can find their experiences reflected in Lift.

Using the word "icon" is just common, popular language used by queer folks, and trans people are no exception. I strongly believe objecting to the word "icon" is being overly litigious.

[Koloss17]

Yeah, I see where some issues can stem. I do relate to some of the stuff, but yeah, some might not relate, which is fine.

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Honestly, I think she’s a terrible choice for any trans association.

I mean, I associate with it, but I get what you mean generally

 

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Trans individuals want their body to reflect their mind

A bit of a generalization, but yeah, most feel that. Personally, my body is kind of a burden. Being a shapeless void wearing a hoodie would be my ideal form, but I can’t have that, so here I am.

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

One of the things trans activists are fighting is the belief that trans individuals are projecting psychological difficulties onto their bodies.

Could you elaborate on that one? I bets it’s a fact, but my brain can’t quite compute what it is supposed to fully mean with that wording.

 

1 hour ago, Greywatch said:

People who are seeing something relatable here aren't necessarily arguing that Lift is 100% trans, and are perhaps not looking to be "corrected

you get what I mean, but I dunno if you get what kingsdaughter means. I think she’s saying that her symptoms aren’t quite what trans peeps feel, and it could in fact be a bad idea to say the two are the same. 

 

39 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

without even getting into the trans-agism debate.

Oh I want to get into that! But maybe in private message chats.

 

40 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Lift’s feelings correlate really well to my personal experience.

That titling doesn’t quite hit as hard as “lift, the trans icon,” but yeah. Icon in this case has lost its meaning a tad. In this case, it doesn’t quite mean a role model or somethin, just someone to relate to. I might be stretching the word a tad, but that’s what I meant. 
 

Yeah, I dunno what the title could be. This title hits right on the emotional level, but does not quite compute on the logical level.
 

[Kingsdaughter613]

17 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Using the word "icon" is just common, popular language used by queer folks, and trans people are no exception. I strongly believe objecting to the word "icon" is being overly litigious.

Why does everyone assume I’m not queer? (Mutters irritably about the alienating language.)

I also have a NVLD, so my primary means of understanding the world is through language. Not everyone uses or knows the most modern slang, nor are slang terms consistent across cultures, nations or demographics.

On the other hand, I've had to explain the dysphoric/dysmorphic difference to far too many people. It really is a problem and a little caution to avoid exacerbation can go a long way.

@Koloss17 Yeah, that’s pretty much what I meant. I think it’s awesome that people can relate to her that way, but I’m worried about people conflating two very different things that are often conflated to the detriment of both. Also, I’ve been writing analysis papers, so I’ve been going crazy with definitions and the need to be VERY specific. (School, right?)

Edited November 26, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Koloss17]

2 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Why does everyone assume I’m not queer? (Mutters irritably about the alienating language.)

 

It’s interesting how humans do that. Generally us beings default to thinking that others are not part of our group, which ends up not being too great.

[Greywatch]

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Why does everyone assume I’m not queer? (Mutters irritably about the alienating language.)

I also have a NVLD, so my primary means of understanding the world is through language. Not everyone uses or knows the most modern slang, nor are slang terms consistent across cultures, nations or demographics.

On the other hand, I've had to explain the dysphoric/dysmorphic difference to far too many people. It really is a problem and a little caution to avoid exacerbation can go a long way.

Apologies for the confusion, but I'm used to arguing against pushback like this from people who are decidedly not queer. The specific dysphoric/dysmorphic thing may be true, but I also witnessed a conversation somewhere else literally today between trans people who were really excited about Lift and found her issues with her body relatable. So again, if it's coming down to use of the word "icon", I can't go with that, and I find it uncharitable.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Just now, Greywatch said:

Apologies for the confusion, but I'm used to arguing against pushback like this from people who are decidedly not queer. The specific dysphoric/dysmorphic thing may be true, but I also witnessed a conversation somewhere else literally today between trans people who were really excited about Lift and found her issues with her body relatable. So again, if it's coming down to use of the word "icon", I can't go with that, and I find it uncharitable.

I’m in the field AND I’ve been writing analyses papers lately. So I’ve actually had to deal with the confusion and have had to be super accurate with EVERYTHING I write lately. And I have a NVLD which means the meanings of words are really, really important.

Basically: Lift is a great person for trans individuals to relate to and I am super happy they can. However, she would make for a very bad symbol for the movement because her issue is something often mistakenly conflated with gender dysphoria.

And you probably shouldn’t assume whether or not people are LGBTQ+. Not everyone is obvious about it or considers it a super important part of their identity. And a person’s views are certainly not a good indicator; the community is hardly monolithic.

[Greywatch]

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I’m in the field AND I’ve been writing analyses papers lately. So I’ve actually had to deal with the confusion and have had to be super accurate with EVERYTHING I write lately. And I have a NVLD which means the meanings of words are really, really important.

Basically: Lift is a great person for trans individuals to relate to and I am super happy they can. However, she would make for a very bad symbol for the movement because her issue is something often mistakenly conflated with gender dysphoria.

And you probably shouldn’t assume whether or not people are LGBTQ+. Not everyone is obvious about it or considers it a super important part of their identity. And a person’s views are certainly not a good indicator; the community is hardly monolithic.

That is all totally fair, as your experience is your experience. It's just that the use of the word "icon" is just... lingo. It's just for fun? Saying... she would make a bad symbol is like... people are going to be drawn to what they're going to be drawn to. She isn't a symbol of anything right now.

[Kingsdaughter613]

6 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

That is all totally fair, as your experience is your experience. It's just that the use of the word "icon" is just... lingo. It's just for fun? Saying... she would make a bad symbol is like... people are going to be drawn to what they're going to be drawn to. She isn't a symbol of anything right now.

Icon means symbol. I was unaware of a modern slang usage for the term until you told me. No one I know uses it that way. You can’t assume people will understand what the term is intended to refer to.

What the OP seems to actually be saying is that she resonated with Lift’s experiences. Which I think is great. There is definitely a lot of overlap where people can relate, which is a good thing.

[Greywatch]

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Icon means symbol. I was unaware of a modern slang usage for the term until you told me. No one I know uses it that way. You can’t assume people will understand what the term is intended to refer to.

What the OP seems to actually be saying is that she resonated with Lift’s experiences. Which I think is great. There is definitely a lot of overlap where people can relate, which is a good thing.

Glad we agree.

[Koloss17]

Oh wait I was going to say that I’m glad the argument is over because the mods are not happy when arguments break out, but I just noticed one of the arguers IS a mod. Huh.

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Koloss17 said:

Oh wait I was going to say that I’m glad the argument is over because the mods are not happy when arguments break out, but I just noticed one of the arguers IS a mod. Huh.

Lol!

[LiftIRL]

As someone who had the whole I-Dont-Want-To-Grow-Up emotional turmoil in my preteen and THEN as a teen Got Transed TM (/J) I felt Lift's interlude resonated so much with both of these. there is definitely a line between them but it felt to me like Lift was dangling about it Mission Impossible style xD

I wanted to make a post about this and got Very Nervous so I'm glad you did and i'm here to go Same Hat!

Also just because she uses the term girl doesn't mean she's entirely cis. for instance I am an AFAB nonbinary and I refer to myself, my gender preception and my presentation goals sometimes as various types of "Boy"s, but the same thought replaced with "Man" or "Young Man" fills me with unease, even tho I can sometimes, depending oncontext, refer to myself and my aesthetic goals as Young Woman, and sometimes I will reject gendered language entirely.
I'm not saying she's canonically nonbinary or even implied or whatever, I'm saying I can view her as NB if i want (honestly, I can always do that, even if this interlude wasn't a thing- basis for headcanons is nice but it is not ever truly Required as long as you acknowledge them as HEADcanons- personal interpertations without auhority over anyone else.)

Edited November 26, 2020 by LiftIRL

[jamesbondsmith]

First off, I'm cis male so I'm sorry if I come across as not treating this as sensitively as someone with first hand experience.

I saw the binding chapter, but it definitely had a vibe of 'not wanting to accept puberty has come' rather than 'trans radiant'.

Also, I feel that having a 'trans icon' still being referred to by other characters and the narration as 'she' (I assume given the binding if Lift were trans she would be FTM, or at very least identified as non-exclusively female enough to suppress physical signs of it) is a little problematic. People have talked about Brandon's somewhat anti-LGBT letter before, but from what I remember even that had vibes of 'I don't agree with what you do but you don't affect me by doing it so you do you'. I'd like to think that he's grown enough that he wouldn't intentionally misgender one of his major characters.

On the trans Radiant angle, did anyone else catch Formless being referred to as 'he', or was that a typo (I seem to remember when Formless 'took over' that female pronouns were used)? I legitimately wondered if Shallan's secret might have been she was trans, and that she had built up some internalised transphobia which fueled her 'everyone will hate me' thoughts. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

6 hours ago, jamesbondsmith said:

First off, I'm cis male so I'm sorry if I come across as not treating this as sensitively as someone with first hand experience.

I saw the binding chapter, but it definitely had a vibe of 'not wanting to accept puberty has come' rather than 'trans radiant'.

Also, I feel that having a 'trans icon' still being referred to by other characters and the narration as 'she' (I assume given the binding if Lift were trans she would be FTM, or at very least identified as non-exclusively female enough to suppress physical signs of it) is a little problematic. People have talked about Brandon's somewhat anti-LGBT letter before, but from what I remember even that had vibes of 'I don't agree with what you do but you don't affect me by doing it so you do you'. I'd like to think that he's grown enough that he wouldn't intentionally misgender one of his major characters.

On the trans Radiant angle, did anyone else catch Formless being referred to as 'he', or was that a typo (I seem to remember when Formless 'took over' that female pronouns were used)? I legitimately wondered if Shallan's secret might have been she was trans, and that she had built up some internalised transphobia which fueled her 'everyone will hate me' thoughts. 

If she was trans she would have transitioned as soon as she had access to Lifelight. So she’s pretty obviously not.

Lift has  Peter Pan syndrome with related body dysmorphia.

[Koloss17]

6 hours ago, jamesbondsmith said:

First off, I'm cis male so I'm sorry if I come across as not treating this as sensitively as someone with first hand experience.

I saw the binding chapter, but it definitely had a vibe of 'not wanting to accept puberty has come' rather than 'trans radiant'.

Also, I feel that having a 'trans icon' still being referred to by other characters and the narration as 'she' (I assume given the binding if Lift were trans she would be FTM, or at very least identified as non-exclusively female enough to suppress physical signs of it) is a little problematic. People have talked about Brandon's somewhat anti-LGBT letter before, but from what I remember even that had vibes of 'I don't agree with what you do but you don't affect me by doing it so you do you'. I'd like to think that he's grown enough that he wouldn't intentionally misgender one of his major characters.

On the trans Radiant angle, did anyone else catch Formless being referred to as 'he', or was that a typo (I seem to remember when Formless 'took over' that female pronouns were used)? I legitimately wondered if Shallan's secret might have been she was trans, and that she had built up some internalised transphobia which fueled her 'everyone will hate me' thoughts. 

So, I’ll resay what I said in this opening post. lift is not trans, so far as I can tell. But her nightwatcher wish portrayed my feeling of physical dysphoria very well. I do not think lift is trans. Sorry if the title confused you.

[Eri]

I think y'all may like this WoB if you haven't seen it. Unfortunately it isn't a clear yes/no answer. Personally, I read this answer as "I didn't plan for her to be, but since you mentioned it, it makes sense and I would consider canonizing this" but it's vague.

 

(PS: I'm cis so not gonna comment on whether Lift sounds trans because IDK, just on the wording of the answer.)

Edited December 23, 2020 by Eri