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What comes next? Speculation for next book and back 5.


Autobrecciation

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We have two characters that are continually brought up in the context of dueling - Taln and Adolin. Taln, being a herald and the last and maybe only that is still actively a part of the oathpact, has no reason to betray Dalinar, although he might be too lost to hold to it again, even if Dalinar somehow reforges the oathpact. I think we will see an arc where Dalinar convinces Taln to act as his champion, but Taln somehow becomes worse (Maybe following the death of another herald) and cannot function as the champion. I think this means that Adolin will try to step in.

Another possibility I've been toying with is that T-Odium could argue for Adolin to represent him - the murder of Sadeas, the resentment for Dalinar, maybe Maya wakes up to him and tells him that what the Knights Radiant are doing is wrong. Adolin becomes Odiums Champion - maybe for a different type of contest, and Dalinar wins him back. Kind of like Star Wars on its head.

Anyway thats all speculation, but what I'm curous is what the back 5 will focus on. We know that there will be a greater focus on the Heralds, and I think that means we will see the fall of Ashyn. I also think we will get a pivot for the villain, who Dalinar and potentially T-Odium will be working together to defeat:

Ishar. Looking at the conflict, we see mirrors of events - the binding of the Thrill, the death of Jezrien. We see that Ba-Ado-Mishram having been locked away has fundamentally changed the previous singers. What have we not seen? Whatever the heck happened on Ashyn. We know that Ishar was there:

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The powers of a Bondsmith are the powers of creation, the Stormfather said. The powers of gods, including the ability to link souls. Always before, Honor was here to guard this power, to limit it. It seems that Ishar knows how to make full use of his new freedom. The Stormfather paused, then rumbled more softly. I never liked him. Though I was only a wind then—and not completely conscious—I remember him. Ishar was ambitious even before madness took him. He cannot bear sole blame for the destruction of Ashyn, humankind’s first home, but he was the one Odium first tricked into experimenting with the Surges.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 1163). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

What broke Ashyn? The powers of the Bondsmith:

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The Stormfather rumbled in the back of his mind. I was not certain it could be done, he said. The power of Bondsmiths was tempered by Honor, for the good of all. Ever since the destruction of Ashyn.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 768). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

Bondsmith's unchained wrecked Ashyn. We get some clues from Rabonial as to what that entailed for the people there:

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“I wasn’t there when your kind came to our world. My grandmother, however, always mentioned the smoke. At first she thought you had strange skin patterns—but that was because so many human faces had been burned or marked by soot from the destruction of the world they left behind. She talked about the way your livestock moaned and cried from their burns. The result of humans Surgebinding without oaths, without checks. Of course, that was before any of us understood the Surges. Before the spren left us for you, before the war started.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 870). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

So what happened on Ashyn? I think it has to do with the Unmade, who were made then unmade similar to what was happening to the Sibling in this book. Again, I think this was done by Ishar:

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"Yours is the power Ishar once held. Before he was Herald of Luck, they called him Binder of Gods. He was the founder of the Oathpact. No Radiant is capable of more than you. Yours is the power of Connection, of joining men and worlds, minds and souls. Your Surges are the greatest of all."

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“Your abilities are what made the original Oathpact,” she said. “And they existed—and were named—long before the Knights Radiant were founded. A Bondsmith Connected the Heralds to Braize, made them immortal, and locked our enemies away. A Bondsmith bound other Surges and brought humans to Roshar, fleeing their dying world. A Bondsmith created—or at least discovered—the Nahel bond: the ability of spren and humans to join together into something better. You Connect things, Dalinar. Realms. Ideas. People.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 284). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

I'm going to get into some Dawnshard spoilers here, so tagging up but I'll get out of there soon:

Spoiler
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On it's walls they found strange murals. People with hands forward, falling through what appeared to be portals, emerging into . . . light?

Brandon Sanderson. Dawnshard (Kindle Location 2133). Dragonsteel Entertainment, LLC.

So this is the exodus from Ashyn right? On the podcast episode they mentioned this feels different from other mentions of moving to shadesmar ("... light?"). I have no basis for speculation on anything else, other than it would be cool, that humans were trying to tunnel into heaven / spiritual realm and destroyed their planet like a Tower of Babel situation. But I 100% expect its just depicting going through a perpendicularity.

I think there is/was a second Dawnshard in the Rosharan system - and I think it's the one that creates and manipulates connection. We got a clue on a WoB that one Dawnshard is different from the rest - I think it has been subsumed to create the surge of connection - potentially by Ishar.

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“That is human talk,” Raboniel said to Derision. “They claim a tenth, of Honor alone. Adhesion is not a true Surge, but a lie that was presented to us as one. True Surges are of both Honor and Cultivation—Cultivation for life, Honor to make the Surge into natural law. Things must fall to the ground, so they created Surges to make it happen.” “And the Surge of these ones?” Venli asked, gesturing toward the Deepest Ones. “Cohesion,” Raboniel said. “The Surge of Axial Connection—the Surge that binds the smallest pieces of all objects to one another. The Surge that holds us together. The makay-im can meld their essence into the essences of other things, intermingling their axi. All things are mostly emptiness, though we cannot see that it is so. A stone, like a mind, exists to be filled by thought and Investiture.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) (pp. 417-418). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

This is why the Fused who should know something a little more about the surges, profess to have a deeper connection to roshar, and even if they serve Odium I'm tempted to take their word that there is something different about adhesion.

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“Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.”

I know this quote is done to death, but I think this might be less about sticking things in gems, and more about facilitating connection. I think Ba-Ado-Mishram has this Dawnshard (Still even while stuck in a gem somewhere), and that is how she was able to connect to the ancient singers before the false desolation.

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From the coppermind (Might be old version of the article, had this saved away from another thread):

The False Desolation commenced in earnest when Ba-Ado-Mishram, one of the nine Unmade, Connected with the singers. This allowed Ba-Ado-Mishram to provide forms of power to the singers, as well as access to Voidlight.

It is unclear how Ba-Ado-Mishram performed this feat, or why she could not do so sometime prior to the False Desolation. The Radiants were confused as to Ba-Ado-Mishram's new Connection with the singers, which might suggest this was a new development in her abilities, and not a feat she could previously perform. It also seems that she managed to Connect with the vast majority of singers -- all except those who would become the listeners.

The costs to Ba-Ado-Mishram's imprisonment were higher than any Radiant could have expected. Since Ba-Ado-Mishram was Connected to the vast majority of singers, her imprisonment ripped out Connection and Identity from the singers' souls. This meant that these singers were essentially lobotomized--unable to think or act independently. These singers had no form and would later be termed as "slaveforms."

So maybe what is different about the connection Dawnshard is that it is bound in a gem with Ba-Ado-Mishram. I'll probably come back to Dawnshard spoilers because I want to bring in the mural and what I think Ishar might have been doing on Ashyn.

Of all the Heralds, Ishar knew first hand the consequences of breaking oaths - for he was a connection sorcerer who had caused the floating cities of Ashyn to fall. He was the architect of the Oathpact - but also the architect of its deterioration:

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"A…a decision has been made. It is time for the Oathpact to end.”

Kalak felt a sharp stab of horror. “What will that do?”

“Ishar believes that so long as there is one of us still bound to the Oathpact, it may be enough. There is a chance we might end the cycle of Desolations.”

From the Prelude of The Way of Kings

All of the other heralds we have seen basically state that Ishar is still sane, but we know that he is not from his own words

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“I can see clearly,” the voice said from within the perpendicularity. “I do not know why. Has a Bondsmith been sworn? We have a Connection, all of us.… Nevertheless, I feel my sanity slipping. My mind is broken, I do not know if it can be healed. Perhaps you can restore me for a short time after an Ideal is spoken near me. Everyone sees a little more clearly when a Radiant touches the Spiritual Realm. For now, listen well. I have the answer, a way to fix the problems that beset us. Come to me in Shinovar. I can reset the Oathpact, though I must be sane to do it. I must … have help … to…”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 1161). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

We should not believe his words, even when he appears sane.

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Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

Q: I just read Edgedancer. I was just wondering... Did Ishar deceive Nalan on purpose or was he just wrong-- he had wrong information?

BS: All the Heralds are insane. It manifests in different ways. Do not trust anything any Herald says. Ever. Nale trusts Ishar too much. Um... So "on purpose" is a difficult thing when you're referring to someone with the psychology that Ishar has. *sighs* Alright, I'll RAFO that until I get to him, but the answer is kind of a yes and a no. Okay? So there is part of him that knows and there is part of him that doesn't want to believe it. And yet the things he's been doing lately in Roshar are done because he knows what's coming.

I think Ishar was somehow connected to the bringing back of the voidspren too:

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“Shadesmar has been changing these last months,” Pattern explained. “Voidspren have arrived mysteriously just west of the Nexus of Imagination. Near Marat or Tukar on your side.

We also know that he had been collecting spren, bringing them into the physical world for his sick experiments.

So to wrap it up, I think Ishar is Mad. I think his madness was before his herald madness - that he's a mad scientist archetype, and that he will be the villain for the back 5. I also think there will still be a Taravang-ium redemption / de-escalation / needing to work with the Archetype of "God's Wrath", in the back 5 in order to protect the cosmere from whatever Ishar is doing.

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The Surge of Adhesion has purely physical applications. The Stormfather considers those to be toys, but he is a Spren without knowledge of advanced physics.
If we approach this purely as a question of physics, what happens if you  forge bonds between nuclei that can undergo fusion? If you want burns from Adhesion and its applications, there you have a candidate.

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I was thinking the same thing when I read that passage. I can think of nothing more fitting of an exploration of the "Horrors and progress and Science" than the nuclear bomb. I am continually flip-flopping on the implications of real world nuclear power, so it is a great candidate for something I want to explore both sides of.

Spoilers Silence Divine:

Spoiler

Something to consider is also that Ashyn is now a world whose magic system comes from disease. What better way to make some magical diseases than nuclear radiation causing normal diseases to mutate?

 

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I vacillate on this so so much, and surely I will do so more as time goes on and I re-read the series yet again, but I’m wondering about this that Ishar says:

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“I will take this bond to the Stormfather. I will bear it myself. I sense … something odd in you. A Connection to Odium. He sees you as … as the one who will fight against him. This cannot be right. I will take that Connection as well.”

He doesn’t say “Connection to Cultivation” but we know she fiddled with his spirit web too, and immediately after he says that we see Dalinar’s POV again so who knows if there was also a Cultivation connection there to sense. 
 

Who better to combine three shards than someone connected to them all? A shard of Colonialism and Conquest that combines growth/rules/hatred? It would not be a very satisfying ending for me, but could happen. 
 

Alternatively, if Odium is freed but Roshar is saved via an ascendency of Dalinar to Honor, I envision Cultivation being the architect of that and her motivations not being made clear until the Back 5 (where Lift is a main character and she is groomed to be the new Vessel of Cultivation) and Jasnah seeks to find out how to use her knowledge to save the Cosmere. 
 

Im using some hints from the excerpt from the Sixth of the Dust short story in the most recent newsletter for this, but given the timeline is likely hundreds of years in the future, it’s probably not as closely linked as I think. Lol

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Dalinar lowered the Honorblade, looking eastward toward the Origin. Even through the stone walls, he knew that was where to find the Stormfather. “Do you know where they are?”

I have told you. I do not see all. Only glimpses in the storms.

“Do you know where they are?”

Only one, he said with a rumble. I … have seen Ishar. He curses me at night, even as he names himself a god. He seeks death. His own. Perhaps that of every man.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 638). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Saw this quote in another thread, and it made me think about how T-Odium said he was going to "Save them all"... could be another way that he will do this. Essentially, Odium and Dalinar's fight is over with the death of Rayse. Continuing on with the contest of champions seems like an interesting backdrop to trap the shard Odium in the Rosharan system, but what if with the new vessel, Taravangian isn't going to follow Rayse's plan of becoming the king of the hill?

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1 hour ago, Autobrecciation said:

Saw this quote in another thread, and it made me think about how T-Odium said he was going to "Save them all"... could be another way that he will do this. Essentially, Odium and Dalinar's fight is over with the death of Rayse. Continuing on with the contest of champions seems like an interesting backdrop to trap the shard Odium in the Rosharan system, but what if with the new vessel, Taravangian isn't going to follow Rayse's plan of becoming the king of the hill?

I’m thinking of Sja-Anat’s interlude:

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However, she felt a surging to the power that moved within him. The mind did not like being questioned, but the power … It liked questions. It liked arguments. It was passion. There was a weakness here. In the division between the Vessel and the Shard.

I imagine that Rayse was trying to be too strategic here. So long as he was attacking with the force of passion, he seemed to be okay. But when he became to divorced from the power, he became weaker.

I think that this is the same that T will find. Saying “I want to save them all” is not at all aligned with the power, it seems? So how will that play out?

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I don't think T is going to let it come down to a battle of champions at all. At least not one that lets either him or Dalinar win. The terms were that either way Odium is stuck on Roshar. Before they set the terms they did talk about what would happen if either of them broke their word. T's plan is probably to make Dalinar and co think everything is going to plan, then subvert them causing Dalinar to break his word. This will cause to Dalinar to fall completely into Odium's control, and T will be able to start working his way into the rest of the cosmere. 

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I think that this is the same that T will find. Saying “I want to save them all” is not at all aligned with the power, it seems? So how will that play out?

Depends on his intent, and the way he  goes through with his plan, especially if he is passion and not just wrath. Like, him doing something like following the Diagram feels cold and analytical, but the shear amount of work put into it, that was what illustrated the passion.

I keep thinking back to that convo between Dalinar and King T about the murderer among the Shepherds. If T is overthinking it, I think it shows his personal passion, and can be folded into his shards alignment.

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For me the speculation about Odiums champion is the big one, since Dalinar seems set to fight himself.

When Dalinar asked the the storm father who was the greatest of the heralds, after being slapped around by Ishar (average amongst the heralds) despite a whole retinue of windrunners,  I instantly thought oh no, Odium will make Taln his champion.

Why wouldn't Odium set it up so that he can't loose? He picks the best there ever was right. We know Talns mind is feeble and since Odiums minions were the ones to break him, they seem like the ones who would know how to make him able to fight again, but for the wrong side.

I'd be interested to hear more theorycraft on this subject.

 

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I think the things we thought were extremely important aren't anymore.  Rayse dying completely reshuffled the deck.  The contest of champions is practically a sideshow.  The eternal war is going to end because it's in nobody's interest for it to continue.  There isn't going to be a planetary apocalypse or mass extinction of either humans or singers caused by war between the shards.  Even the Oathpact itself will soon be superfluous now that Fused can be killed with Anti-voidlight.

The future will be cold war on Roshar.  Everyone will coexist in an awkward peace during the timegap between the front 5 and back 5.  The growing threat on Roshar will be the lack of Honor's previously enforced "limits" on surgebinding.  Ishar currently personifies the problem that will soon become widespread amongst Radiants in general of higher oaths - how do we stop Surgebinders from nuking the planet like they did Ashyn?

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45 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I think the things we thought were extremely important aren't anymore.  Rayse dying completely reshuffled the deck.

Yes

45 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

 The contest of champions is practically a sideshow.

No. For Odium wants to be free. The contest affects that.

45 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

  The eternal war is going to end because it's in nobody's interest for it to continue.

This is incorrect. It is in the interest of the rest of the Cosmere as being represented by Hoid. If the Rosharans want to make peace or a truce Hoid turns into an enemy.

The eternal conflict weakens Odium and keeps him contained buying the rest of the Cosmere time.

45 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

There isn't going to be a planetary apocalypse or mass extinction of either humans or singers caused by war between the shards.  Even the Oathpact itself will soon be superfluous now that Fused can be killed with Anti-voidlight.

Ehm. Can they? I mean it is scientifically possible, but it needs Raysium for now. Odium is not going to provide that to the Knights Radiant.

45 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

The future will be cold war on Roshar.  Everyone will coexist in an awkward peace during the timegap between the front 5 and back 5.

Cultivation would have gone for all that trouble just to buy a few decades at most?

 

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This is incorrect. It is in the interest of the rest of the Cosmere as being represented by Hoid. If the Rosharans want to make peace or a truce Hoid turns into an enemy.

This is true if T-Odium wants the same thing Rayse wanted. This is a big if, because if I'm understanding correct, the shard Odium doesn't want anything other than the intent its limited to - in this case, God's Wrath / Passion. Taravangian could be convinced by the shards intent to go through with it, if it aligns with his goals, and at this point the only thing we have seen of his goals was that he was going to "save them all". I keep falling into the trap that T-Odium will be evil, but he might just be vindictive, like Old Testament God, turning people who fight against him into pillars of salt, that sort of thing.

We also have no idea what Hoid's goal is - in the Rosharan system its to fight Odium because Odium is trying to become king of the hill, but what if T-Odium doesn't want that?

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I think the things we thought were extremely important aren't anymore.  Rayse dying completely reshuffled the deck.  The contest of champions is practically a sideshow.  The eternal war is going to end because it's in nobody's interest for it to continue.

The only reason I'm not behind this now is Spoilers Release Event Reading from sequel to First of Dusk:

Spoiler

We see that the ones above are in conflict with a Knight Radiant, probably a Skybreaker. Does this mean that at that time the Skybreakers still follow Odium? Does it mean there has been a unification?

I'm leaning towards complex ethics and morals guiding both sides in that conflict, but I think it needs to be set up by the back ten. We know that the Scadrians at that point have access to connection storing devices that allow anyone to essentially act as a Allomancer, perhaps even widespread. Does the same exist for the Knights Radiant? Who knows.

 

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1 hour ago, Autobrecciation said:

This is true if T-Odium wants the same thing Rayse wanted.

I cannot follow your logic. Rayse-Odium wanted to settle on a long confinement to the Rosharan system. The point in the change is that Taravangian-Odium does not want to take the deal.

1 hour ago, Autobrecciation said:

This is a big if, because if I'm understanding correct, the shard Odium doesn't want anything other than the intent its limited to - in this case, God's Wrath / Passion. Taravangian could be convinced by the shards intent to go through with it, if it aligns with his goals, and at this point the only thing we have seen of his goals was that he was going to "save them all". I keep falling into the trap that T-Odium will be evil, but he might just be vindictive, like Old Testament God, turning people who fight against him into pillars of salt, that sort of thing.

We also have no idea what Hoid's goal is - in the Rosharan system its to fight Odium because Odium is trying to become king of the hill, but what if T-Odium doesn't want that?

Hoid said it clearly. He is ready to let Roshar burn if that's what it takes. That is kind of incompatible with him truly caring about what happens on Roshar. Hoid has one overriding mid-term goal. He wants to keep Odium confined.

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I cannot follow your logic. Rayse-Odium wanted to settle on a long confinement to the Rosharan system. The point in the change is that Taravangian-Odium does not want to take the deal.

I mean, we know T-Odium wants to get off world, but do we know he wants to destroy all other shards so he can be the last god standing? I think that is what Hoid wants to prevent on Roshar, and I assume his personal (Former?) friendship with Rayse is also involved. So the question is whether Taravangian's goal is becoming the last god, which I'm leaning towards not... at this point in time.

Hoid's over-arching goal (or one of them) is "indicated as" the re-unification of Adonalsium, though I'm sure its much more involved and complicated than just that, plus I think he has other goals.

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Questioner

So, Hoid was there during the Shattering of Adonalsium. Odium is going around, like, destroying other Shards. We know that Hoid is collecting and has pieces of some of the other Shards.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Since Hoid was there at the original Shattering of Adonalsium. Is there an echo image of the original Adonalsium in Hoid?

Brandon Sanderson

Uh, that's a RAFO. Here's your card. But it is a valid theory.

Questioner

I have a two-parter on that.

Brandon Sanderson

You can ask me the next part, but it is a RAFO.

Questioner

Is his end goal trying to join as many pieces of Adonalsium together to *inaudible*

Brandon Sanderson

Um, that, I will give a "that's a very good guess." And that is what the books seem to indicate is happening.

Salt Lake City ComicCon 2017 (Sept. 21, 2017)

 

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4 hours ago, Autobrecciation said:

This is true if T-Odium wants the same thing Rayse wanted. This is a big if, because if I'm understanding correct, the shard Odium doesn't want anything other than the intent its limited to - in this case, God's Wrath / Passion. Taravangian could be convinced by the shards intent to go through with it, if it aligns with his goals, and at this point the only thing we have seen of his goals was that he was going to "save them all". I keep falling into the trap that T-Odium will be evil, but he might just be vindictive, like Old Testament God, turning people who fight against him into pillars of salt, that sort of thing.

We also have no idea what Hoid's goal is - in the Rosharan system its to fight Odium because Odium is trying to become king of the hill, but what if T-Odium doesn't want that?

The only reason I'm not behind this now is Spoilers Release Event Reading from sequel to First of Dusk:

  Hide contents

We see that the ones above are in conflict with a Knight Radiant, probably a Skybreaker. Does this mean that at that time the Skybreakers still follow Odium? Does it mean there has been a unification?

I'm leaning towards complex ethics and morals guiding both sides in that conflict, but I think it needs to be set up by the back ten. We know that the Scadrians at that point have access to connection storing devices that allow anyone to essentially act as a Allomancer, perhaps even widespread. Does the same exist for the Knights Radiant? Who knows.

 

Ok I'm very confused I read first of the dusk and i definitely didn't remember that happening. 

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Coming back around to Ishar, I wonder if he was the one who bound Ba-Edo-Mishram. It's in the name kinda, Melishi~Ishar. Plus Melishi seemed to have abilities that were unexpected for a bondsmith. Several of the heralds were present at the binding, including at least Kalek and Nale. Maybe they weren't completely insane yet and were trying to help fight the false desolation.

As for T-Odium, going back to Renarin's vision in RoW and interpreting it in the light of Taravangian's ascension leads me to believe that T-Odium will try for a stalemate in the contest of champions, that way there can be no end to the war. Permawar seems to align well with Odium's intent, and it would mean the preservation of humanity on some level which is what Taravangian wanted.

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1 hour ago, Zanarkand said:

Coming back around to Ishar, I wonder if he was the one who bound Ba-Edo-Mishram. It's in the name kinda, Melishi~Ishar. Plus Melishi seemed to have abilities that were unexpected for a bondsmith. Several of the heralds were present at the binding, including at least Kalek and Nale. Maybe they weren't completely insane yet and were trying to help fight the false desolation.

Melishi is not Ishar. The Sibling was Melishi's bonded spren and he imprisoned BAM in presence of Heralds (at least Kelek and Nale we know off). Ishar could be present.

Ishar became Bondsmith unchained a couple of years after Szeth was declared Truthless and exiled from Shinovar because we know Herald Isi's Honorblade's former bearer was Szeth's father and Ishar said that he had taken it from him and given him a much needed death. The events are very recent 

 

 

 

Edited by Ramona Tehradin
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I think realistically in the back 5 we have to see either: the action taken to Braize or Ashyn 

 

Or

Odium escapes the system and we swing from Fantasy with a SF touch to SF with a Fantasy touch. I think more likely this option, because it allows for more possibilities to Splinter or neutralise Odium (Shards like Mercy could do the latter, Dawnshards that could sort Odium out exist but need a Shard and its Intent to do that, we think). Also I'm sure Cultivation is trying to find a way to get Odium off her system. 

However, locking Odium to Roshar, a sacrifice made by other players like Wit, would fit some themes and be interesting to see how Sanderson finds a solution. 

 

As for the next book, we will see the Duel either happen or more likely be sabotaged by Todium by the end of Part 2. We will see Shinovar, hopefully see some more of the Radiant Spren civilisations in Shadesmar. We will see a confrontation with the GBs and learn more about them and Thaidakar but Shallan won't meet him until the back 5 for obvious reasons (another reason to expect the series to leave Roshar). The book will end up in a giant, all pieces we have seen so far, pitched battle, and it will end with a huge twist of either Odium appearing dead, escaping or the battle and Radiants locked back on Braize or Ashyn, possibly with Roshar wrecked like Ashyn was. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, Autobrecciation said:

I mean, we know T-Odium wants to get off world, but do we know he wants to destroy all other shards so he can be the last god standing? I think that is what Hoid wants to prevent on Roshar, and I assume his personal (Former?) friendship with Rayse is also involved. So the question is whether Taravangian's goal is becoming the last god, which I'm leaning towards not... at this point in time.

Hoid's over-arching goal (or one of them) is "indicated as" the re-unification of Adonalsium, though I'm sure its much more involved and complicated than just that, plus I think he has other goals.

 

T's intention was to save and be seen as a saviour. But I think Odium's Intent will corrupt how he interprets that. We know, and it's key as a foil to the Honorable characters like Kal and Dalinar and the overall take on ethics of Radiants, that T's take on ethics is very End justify the Means. And SA at its heart has to be an evaluation of that ideal vs the ideal that Journey comes over Destination.

That's why it fit so nicely that T became Odium because whereas we don't know what ethics Rayse followed or even know whether Rayse had any ethics, we know T has a strong ethical code, and it's exactly against the Radiant one. 

I'm intrigued as to whether Sanderson fully commits to one ideology or not, or shows that both can be valid.

 

I'm also scared for Jasnah as her ethics, whilst not utterly clear, have hinted at Ends Justify Means before (although in not killing Renarin she went against that). Maybe she'll be "logical deontology", Kant's Categorical Imperative, in the end?

Edited by IndigoAjah
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On 11/27/2020 at 2:40 PM, IndigoAjah said:

I think realistically in the back 5 we have to see either: the action taken to Braize or Ashyn 

 

Or

Odium escapes the system and we swing from Fantasy with a SF touch to SF with a Fantasy touch. I think more likely this option, because it allows for more possibilities to Splinter or neutralise Odium (Shards like Mercy could do the latter, Dawnshards that could sort Odium out exist but need a Shard and its Intent to do that, we think). Also I'm sure Cultivation is trying to find a way to get Odium off her system. 

However, locking Odium to Roshar, a sacrifice made by other players like Wit, would fit some themes and be interesting to see how Sanderson finds a solution. 

 

As for the next book, we will see the Duel either happen or more likely be sabotaged by Todium by the end of Part 2. We will see Shinovar, hopefully see some more of the Radiant Spren civilisations in Shadesmar. We will see a confrontation with the GBs and learn more about them and Thaidakar but Shallan won't meet him until the back 5 for obvious reasons (another reason to expect the series to leave Roshar). The book will end up in a giant, all pieces we have seen so far, pitched battle, and it will end with a huge twist of either Odium appearing dead, escaping or the battle and Radiants locked back on Braize or Ashyn, possibly with Roshar wrecked like Ashyn was. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shallan will not be a major POV in the back 5. As such, her GB plot needs to wrapped up before the time skip. MB era 3 will also be written between SA5&6, so the ramifications of that plot are going to be dealt with. Which means the GB plot needs to be finished beforehand, although the GBs won’t be.

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9 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Shallan will not be a major POV in the back 5. As such, her GB plot needs to wrapped up before the time skip. MB era 3 will also be written between SA5&6, so the ramifications of that plot are going to be dealt with. Which means the GB plot needs to be finished beforehand, although the GBs won’t be.

Hard to see that happening though, with Shallan tied to Roshar and Thaidakar by definition unable to go there.  I can't see where any meaningful confrontation is going to occur. 

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28 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

Hard to see that happening though, with Shallan tied to Roshar and Thaidakar by definition unable to go there.  I can't see where any meaningful confrontation is going to occur. 

Avatar? And Shallan may end the book by learning to Worldhop - or Thaidakar may end up free. Yes, I know we have a WoB, but I think he changed when Thaidakar’s identity was going to be revealed/heavily implied. This changes other plot elements.

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10 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Avatar? And Shallan may end the book by learning to Worldhop - or Thaidakar may end up free. Yes, I know we have a WoB, but I think he changed when Thaidakar’s identity was going to be revealed/heavily implied. This changes other plot elements.

I personally am pretty sure that isn't what Avatar means in this context, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm nearly 100% sure that Avatar simply refers to his "body" given everything we know from SH and BoM.

I wouldn't be surprised if one of those things does happen by the end of the book, but it has to happen quite a lot earlier in the book to realistically get them to interact. 

Shallan no longer being a main PoV character does not mean they will complete the arc, depending on how long our inter-arc gap is going to be. Placing a PoV character next to a character that knows too much to be a PoV but progresses the plot is a common literary tool.

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