LuckyJim

What is Vyre's purpose now?

30 posts in this topic

Moash was one of the characters I was most interested in when starting Rhythm of War, and while I wasn't thrilled with how he was written in Rhythm of War, and I wouldn't say that I'm coming around to it, I am starting to think maybe it could work depending on where the character goes in the future. Which makes me wonder, what even is his purpose in the story now?

I feel his arc as Kaladin's foil has been completed, Moash gave up on caring because it's too painful while Kaladin accepts that caring is painful but he continues to move forward anyway. Even more than that, he even had a confrontation with Navani, who was able to defeat the man who killed her son. He's lost, he could have easily been killed off at the end and I don't think anyone would have felt unsatisfied but he's still standing regardless. Villains in Stormlight don't really last long, after a couple books, most of them either die or switch sides, even Rayse isn't immune to this, especially if you consider that he only actually appears in Oathbringer and Rhythm of War, yet Moash of all people sticks around. He's been an antagonist in three books and he's approaching a fourth, making him one of the longest lasting villains in the series, behind Taravangian. So far Moash has only really served as a counter to Kaladin and Radiants in general (a big theme of RoW was what makes people good is the fact that he can change, but Moash doesn't) but if that's all he is, why hasn't he been killed off yet?

It's possible that Moash could eventually get a redemption, but I kind of doubt it. Throughout Rhythm of War, you constantly have characters remarking about how terrifying, monstrous and evil he is. The same could be said of characters like Szeth or Raboniel, but for those characters there were also moments put in to signal to the readers that these were characters that could be sympathized with, but there's nothing like this for Moash. Even when he gets his pain back for a second, it's made clear that he feels worse for himself than Teft, as if to signal to the reader that we really shouldn't have any sympathy for him. Even if he did get redeemed, what would he do? He can't exactly go to the coalition, the Alethi are notoriously unforgiving of regicide. At one point I thought he'd join the listeners, but I think he missed the boat on that one.

Honestly I'm half expecting it to turn out that he just froze to death on the mountain after the end of Rhythm of War.

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I'm kind of expecting him to go crazy.  He'll continue to deny his pain, and that he made the choices he did, until it drives him insane.  As to what happens after that, I don't know.  Maybe he'll go after Kaladin one last time, maybe he'll just leave the area.  I could see that happening as an interesting narrative choice for the second arc.  Maybe Odium will make him his champion, though that seems unlikely.

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I think he's going to be used to show the limits of how much Odium can take away your pain. I think Teft's murder is going to haunt him, until he has a breakdown.

Don't know where it would go from there, but that's my gut feeling.

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Moash is going to be the Gollum/Smeagal of this series. Maybe he takes up Honor and Odium and becomes a different combination: Vengeance. Maybe he realizes Odium has betrayed him in the last moment, prevents Dalinar from grabbing Odium before the shard is splintered. I just hope its better than Spoiler WoT:

Spoiler

Padan Fain, which ended up being somewhat unsatisfying end for that character for me.

 

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To be a useless evil cripple apparently

Edited by Nymeros
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I kind of want all of Bridge 4 to all swear up to the 4th or 5th Oath and just have a solid beat down and take the Honorblade off him leaving him bruised and broken to live with the pain he’s caused. 

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It's too early to speculate and Brandon having given us no hints, it gonna be airworks down the lane. I'll just note down what I deem possible plots for our Moash/Vyre here. 

Before I begin, I have one sentiment for him. #@$% Moash. 

Yeah, let's go. 

  • Now that El and Nine have knowledge about Anti-Stormlight/Voidlight, they will want to manufacture it in large numbers. Considering Reboniel made Anti-Stormlight like in a blink, within first two days Fused faction will have an amount which could be threatening to at least a small contingent of Radiants. They can't move towards Thaylenah so we can except Todium to order for building reserves around Alethkar and Herdaz since they are on bet. A possibility of strike group moving towards Emul could be chancy but it would be a foolish move. Vyre could possibly be leading this backup anti-stormlight weaponry regiment in Alethkar/Herdaz. 

 

  • Vyre could someone heal his blindness using hybrid Lifelight-Voidlight. 

 

  • Todium could send him to intercept Kaladin and Szeth on their path to Shinovar. We might except him to drop out of thin air and start making foils in our heroes' plan. Additionally, we could see him trying to throw Kaladin over edge again but it will be futile. We can except a clash between them but not his death. 
  • On other hand, just like deaths of Highprince Thalandal, Highprincess Ialai and Brightlord Roshar, Kaladin/Szeth could possibly kill Moash in first part itself- Brandon's way of dropping a surprise, mildly unsatisfying plot. 

 

  • He will be Todium's Champion and fight against Dalinar. I can see Dalinar almost choosing Navani as his champion but perhaps won't happen. 
  • He will be Todum's Chamption and Dalinar will enlist Kaladin to be his champion. A fight between them will decide the fate. 

 

  • Or else I can see him doing most of El's bidding along with Heavenly Ones and keep doing bombing dives around Radiant forces. 
  •  He will kill El/Destroy Odium's Vessel and take the Shard for himself

 

 

 

 

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On 11/25/2020 at 1:08 PM, Autobrecciation said:

Moash is going to be the Gollum/Smeagal of this series. Maybe he takes up Honor and Odium and becomes a different combination: Vengeance. Maybe he realizes Odium has betrayed him in the last moment, prevents Dalinar from grabbing Odium before the shard is splintered. I just hope its better than Spoiler WoT:

  Hide contents

Padan Fain, which ended up being somewhat unsatisfying end for that character for me.

 

Adonalsium, please no! I understand why these kinds of characters exist. Believe me, I do. It's important to show how far you can fall down the rabbit hole of dark darkness and evil evilness. But... I never enjoy reading them. They just become page-skip material for me on re-reads. That said... when you really look at how bad some of the things our leading Radiants have done are... I could see him getting a redemption arc. I mean... Dalinar burned an entire city alive. Venli ushered in the apocalypse. And, Shallan committed parents+spren-acide. Heck... Other than Jasnah(as far as we're aware), Kaladin is practically the only one who hasn't committed some kind of formative atrocity in his backstory that lead to becoming a good guy.

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31 minutes ago, BasementDwellingRadiant said:

Adonalsium, please no! I understand why these kinds of characters exist. Believe me, I do. It's important to show how far you can fall down the rabbit hole of dark darkness and evil evilness. But... I never enjoy reading them. They just become page-skip material for me on re-reads. That said... when you really look at how bad some of the things our leading Radiants have done are... I could see him getting a redemption arc. I mean... Dalinar burned an entire city alive. Venli ushered in the apocalypse. And, Shallan committed parents+spren-acide. Heck... Other than Jasnah(as far as we're aware), Kaladin is practically the only one who hasn't committed some kind of formative atrocity in his backstory that lead to becoming a good guy.

I wonder. I will maintain that nothing Moash has done really makes him the worst character in the series. Even attitude wise, he's basically tied with Venli who was, and still is in part, a selfish coward who does the right thing more out of necessity than actual moral obligation (this isn't a criticism, I actually like that aspect of her character).

That being said, I feel like Brandon was really trying to drive home that this a character you should not feel any sympathy for whatsoever. Even when his Connection to Odium is broken, he makes sure to clarify "he feels bad for himself, not Teft, don't have sympathy for this guy". Moash had redeeming qualities in Oathbringer, such as his relationship with Khen and her group, but even that got kinda shoved off to the side.

I'm sort of interested to see where his character goes, but that's mixed with the fear that he'll continue going down the darker and darker direction, until he's bascially just Amaram but with more viewpoints. I guess it could work, but I agree it wouldn't be very interesting to read.

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He encouraged his best friend to commit suicide.  This isn't a complex character anymore like he was before RoW, he exists purely so you can hate him.

Dalinar is good person because he accepted the pain for the bad things he's done.  Moash is bad because the only thing he wants is to never feel pain.  Such seems to be the moral framework of SA.

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I think there is a good chance he'll die and return (due to Odium's investment), showing us that Fused and Heralds are essentially the same thing. If Todium turns upon the Fused at some point, perhaps due to needing to sever his connection to Roshar (he didn't bring anyone with him from previous shard-wrecking campaigns from what we know),  then maybe Vyre will be our viewpoint into that: feelings of betrayal, fury and perhaps relief that it's finally over. I think we'll see him go to Damnation before that, though. We know the Heralds didn't like it one bit there - but what's it like for the other side? And many readers have wanted him to 'go to hell', so actually letting readers experience that in a very literal sense would be an interesting twist. Maybe he'll bump into some unexpected faces on Braize.

Regardless of any theories, he can still serve as a human viewpoint into Odium's forces. I expect books 6 to need a viewpoint into how the Todium transition ripples down into the 'realm' of Odium. So there's plenty of meta-narrative reason to keep him around and I also think his personal arc is not yet done.

Edited by Golstar
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I figure he will either be an example of the idea that "you're never too far gone for redemption" or he'll be directly involved with one of kal's future oaths like "you can't help someone that absolutely rejects your help".

7 hours ago, Golstar said:

I think there is a good chance he'll die and return (due to Odium's investment), showing us that Fused and Heralds are essentially the same thing. If Todium turns upon the Fused at some point, perhaps due to needing to sever his connection to Roshar (he didn't bring anyone with him from previous shard-wrecking campaigns from what we know),  then maybe Vyre will be our viewpoint into that: feelings of betrayal, fury and perhaps relief that it's finally over. I think we'll see him go to Damnation before that, though. We know the Heralds didn't like it one bit there - but what's it like for the other side? And many readers have wanted him to 'go to hell', so actually letting readers experience that in a very literal sense would be an interesting twist. Maybe he'll bump into some unexpected faces on Braize.
 

Oh big fan of this idea I hadn't even considered the idea of him becoming a cognitive shadow or him literally going to hell by being trapped on braize.

One thing though is that there's a big distinction between the heralds and the fused in that the fused require an existing corporeal body upon returning to roshar whereas the heralds seem to be able to manifest a body for themselves so I wonder how that would work for vyre

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He might go to the Nightwatcher and ask her to give him sight again. That’s where I would take this character. It would open up possibilities.

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Moash's arc in Rhythm of War was very unsatisfying, his position as the fandom's lightning rod for hatred aside, he was a complicated character, from his role in Words of Radiance to his point-of-view in Oathbringer, he did seem nuanced. His role in RoW felt kind of like a retcon. Oh well, I suppose we have other characters with redemption arcs, practical mindset and no desire to be the big damn hero™, and Moash's journey will just be a very long fall.

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On 11/28/2020 at 0:11 AM, LuckyJim said:

I wonder. I will maintain that nothing Moash has done really makes him the worst character in the series. Even attitude wise, he's basically tied with Venli who was, and still is in part, a selfish coward who does the right thing more out of necessity than actual moral obligation (this isn't a criticism, I actually like that aspect of her character).

Suicide baiting is a very particular form of evil which deserves no absolution, no forgiveness, no redemption.

What makes him worse than others is that he does not accept responsibility for his own actions.  After WoR, I spoke a lot about Szeth and how he doesn't deserve a redemption arc because of the willful abdication of morality (and I still stand by that), but Moash in RoW exemplifies this attitude far more than Szeth ever did.  Even Mr T, as heinous and despicable as he is, makes no pretense that he is not a monster that deserves the raw hatred people will have for him if they find out what he has done. 

Even if the particular actions that Moash/Vyre have taken are inconsequential in comparison to others, the betrayal is on a deeply personal level and with zero remorse.  If given the opportunity to do everything over again, we're led to believe that he would make the exact same choices and still be left wondering why Bridge 4 stands against him. 

On 11/27/2020 at 11:29 PM, BasementDwellingRadiant said:

And, Shallan committed parents+spren-acide.

Shallan killed her mother in order to save her own life.  She killed her father in order to save the lives of her brothers.  She killed her spren because she was a child, and too young to be making such binding Oaths.  Killing her spren is the only one that has any weight of 'atrocity' attached to it, and I simply fail to see how an 11 year old child can be expected to bear full blame in that instance.  It's a tragedy, for sure, but I don't think it's more than that.

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Moash will most likely get redeemed but will have to pay for his past burdens

in my believe he will receive the odium shard... and... destroy it once and for all killing himself..

and somehow, serving a purpose in solving the fears of the heralds of them always having to die to prevent the desolations

he will somehow take this himself 

Edited by THEFITHSHARD
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21 hours ago, kaellok said:

Shallan killed her mother in order to save her own life.  She killed her father in order to save the lives of her brothers.  She killed her spren because she was a child, and too young to be making such binding Oaths.  Killing her spren is the only one that has any weight of 'atrocity' attached to it, and I simply fail to see how an 11 year old child can be expected to bear full blame in that instance.  It's a tragedy, for sure, but I don't think it's more than that.

Yes. Wow. It's amazing the difference not having three glasses of wine in me makes when I look at that.

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On 11/29/2020 at 8:04 AM, Zea mays said:

He might go to the Nightwatcher and ask her to give him sight again. That’s where I would take this character. It would open up possibilities.

I LOVE this idea! 

I could see TOdium trying to use that to draw out Cultivation too, in order to kill him. 

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On 11/29/2020 at 9:04 AM, Zea mays said:

He might go to the Nightwatcher and ask her to give him sight again. That’s where I would take this character. It would open up possibilities.

For one possibility, you could have a "be careful what you wish for" moment, where in asking "to see", the Nightwatcher makes him able to see in more ways than one, cutting off his Connection to Odium so that he can see everything he's done with full clarity.

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Yup. Between boon and curse, The Nightwatcher (or Mommy Cultivation) could have all kinds of fun with Vyre.

I think we need to see someone go to her on-screen in ‘real-time’, not a flashback.

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.

On 11/29/2020 at 11:08 AM, Honorless said:

Moash's arc in Rhythm of War was very unsatisfying, his position as the fandom's lightning rod for hatred aside, he was a complicated character, from his role in Words of Radiance to his point-of-view in Oathbringer, he did seem nuanced. His role in RoW felt kind of like a retcon. Oh well, I suppose we have other characters with redemption arcs, practical mindset and no desire to be the big damn hero™, and Moash's journey will just be a very long fall.

I think Moash's transition in RoW was intentionally done. Odium has been sucking the nuance outta Moash for over a year, making him more and more one-note, corrupting what was once a human soul. As I think about it,  I can imagine that a similar s was used to create the first Fused. 

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On 12/4/2020 at 4:45 AM, Bigmikey357 said:

I think Moash's transition in RoW was intentionally done. Odium has been sucking the nuance outta Moash for over a year, making him more and more one-note, corrupting what was once a human soul. As I think about it,  I can imagine that a similar s was used to create the first Fused. 

That explains it, but it doesn't make it less disappointing. Moash offers a unique perspective on the story with his relation to class struggle that's basically discarded. Honestly, the way he's written in RoW makes me wonder if he was ever meant to be a nuanced character in the first place.

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