RLAIN and mateform...

[Gloomspren]

Loved Rlain POV so much, and once again branderson wrote a marginalized underrepresented character so well. Not gonna lie I wanted him to bond the sibling a. Because seeing a marginalized character with that much power... I want it and b. I didn’t really want another kohlin radiant AND bond smith but i was ultimately happy with navani and him being chosen by a truth watcher spren.

Anyways, I’m curious if anyone else picked up on a quote that I simply cannot find in this ginormous volume where he essentially says that mateform doesn’t go right for him...

My immediate thought was that we might have another lgbtq+ icon on our hands, since (as far as we know) mateform seems to be a heterosexual pairing for the purpose of producing children. Anyone else have thoughts on this (or the quote lol).

[Sasja2112]

Such an intriguing line!

Maybe when he goes into mateform, he's attracted to other males, which makes other listners uncomfortable because "uhh... you're not going to make a baby that way bud!" Maybe after trying once he just decided somehow he was a weird case and shouldn't bother again. 

 

I wondered if it could be possible for him to be trans (ie, turning into female mateform instead of male), but there's really nothing else to suggest a) that Rlain has a femalen identitiy outside of mateform, and also b ) until recently he wouldn't have had access to the kind of bond that does large scale physiological changes to match identity.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Sasja2112

[LiftIRL]

Yeah, I felt like there was definitely either ace or gay Rlain on our hands in that line, and I am hype to see how (and if) it plays out. LGBT Icon!

Also. in the end scene with the listeners Thude seemed really excited to hear Rlain is alive.

Edited November 25, 2020 by LiftIRL

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 hours ago, LiftIRL said:

Yeah, I felt like there was definitely either ace or gay Rlain on our hands in that line, and I am hype to see how (and if) it plays out. LGBT Icon!

Also. in the end scene with the listeners Thude seemed really excited to hear Rlain is alive.

I don’t think he can be ace because of how mateform is implied to work. Listeners/Singers are always ace EXCEPT when in mateform. In mateform they essentially get blasted with “have sex and procreate” hormones. They aren’t human, and their bodies and hormones don’t work like humans.

So yes, he’s probably gay. At least, that was my reading of it.

[Sasja2112]

Thude x Rlain is a ship I now support 

Quote

11 hours ago, LiftIRL said:

In the end scene with the listeners Thude seemed really excited to hear Rlain is alive.

 

 

[KandraAllomancer]

On 25.11.2020 at 5:56 AM, Gloomspren said:

My immediate thought was that we might have another lgbtq+ icon on our hands, since (as far as we know) mateform seems to be a heterosexual pairing for the purpose of producing children. Anyone else have thoughts on this (or the quote lol).

Not confirmed explicitly, but as close as we can get right now:

Quote

Questioner

Any teases on upcoming LGBT characters?

Brandon Sanderson

I put some hints in Rhythm of War. I should be making those canon by Book Five for you. But it wasn't quite time. I actually tried writing them harder into Rhythm of War, and they felt like it stood out too much; it was unnatural. So go ahead and begin your theorizing. It's not gonna be a big surprise; I think that people will figure it out pretty easily. But I'm not intending it to be a big surprise; I'm just trying to let things like what happened with Jasnah in this book come out naturally as they fit the characters.

No big surprises, but for those who would rather read about it in the book when it happens, then I will leave it to Book Five.

Tor Instagram Livestream (Nov. 25, 2020)

 

[danex]

I’m all for Rlain being gay, and it does definitely seem like that’s where Brandon’s going, but I wonder if it will make the character seem...idk a little forced? Like, it feels like Brandon is trying to make Rlain as marginalized as possible. 
1. He’s a listener, so discriminated by humans for being a different species.
2. He’s a listener, so discriminated by singers for being a different culture.
3. One of only 2 bridge 4 members without a spren (until the end).
4. When he finally gets a spren, it’s corrupted and different, further making him stand out, even among radiants.
5. And now he’s most likely gay.

It feels like Brandon is trying to shove all the Minority Representation into this one character. 

[Greywatch]

5 minutes ago, Danex said:

I’m all for Rlain being gay, and it does definitely seem like that’s where Brandon’s going, but I wonder if it will make the character seem...idk a little forced? Like, it feels like Brandon is trying to make Rlain as marginalized as possible. 
1. He’s a listener, so discriminated by humans for being a different species.
2. He’s a listener, so discriminated by singers for being a different culture.
3. One of only 2 bridge 4 members without a spren (until the end).
4. When he finally gets a spren, it’s corrupted and different, further making him stand out, even among radiants.
5. And now he’s most likely gay.

It feels like Brandon is trying to shove all the Minority Representation into this one character. 

Normally I resist objections of representations being forced on principle, but ultimately, this is my worry as well. Especially if we don't get any major human gay characters, if it ends up only being Rlain in the end... I'm not sure how I'll feel about that.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

Oh I noticed this line and wrote in my notes “what happened when my boy tried to storm?” I hadn’t considered that mateform might be different for lgbt people, I like this theory

 

EDIT: Apparently this site changes f*ck to storm lol

Edited December 15, 2020 by Stormtide_Leviathan

[Comatose]

Ace or gay was definitely my takeaway.  Although sexuality works a little different for Singers/Listeners, and I think a singer who has an aversion to the only form they experience sexual attraction in, that would basically match our understanding of asexuality.  I think a gay reading definitely works as well.  

Here I am, just hoping against hope it might mean we get Corrupted Truthwatcher Boyfriends.  Renarin and Rlain have had a couple of cute scenes, and it's touching that Renarin specifically recommended Rlain as a candidate for Sja-Anat's latest child.  

[wordspren]

On 11/26/2020 at 1:49 PM, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

I’m all for Rlain being gay, and it does definitely seem like that’s where Brandon’s going, but I wonder if it will make the character seem...idk a little forced? Like, it feels like Brandon is trying to make Rlain as marginalized as possible. 
1. He’s a listener, so discriminated by humans for being a different species.
2. He’s a listener, so discriminated by singers for being a different culture.
3. One of only 2 bridge 4 members without a spren (until the end).
4. When he finally gets a spren, it’s corrupted and different, further making him stand out, even among radiants.
5. And now he’s most likely gay.

It feels like Brandon is trying to shove all the Minority Representation into this one character. 

Eh, I don't think it's all that forced. People have been speculating that Rlain was gay for forever. Besides, while certainly there are more people irl who are marginalized on one axis and not on another, there are also many who are marginalized on several axes. 

I do agree with @Greywatch in that I'd like to see a major human character be gay as well. But I'm optimistic that we'll get that at some point, at least in the larger Cosmere. BS has clearly become much more comfortable writing queer characters in the last several years than he was before, and I imagine that trend will continue.

On 11/26/2020 at 2:13 PM, Comatose said:

Here I am, just hoping against hope it might mean we get Corrupted Truthwatcher Boyfriends.  Renarin and Rlain have had a couple of cute scenes, and it's touching that Renarin specifically recommended Rlain as a candidate for Sja-Anat's latest child.  

Same!!!! I'm really into this ship. I was hoping Rlain was who Renarin had in mind, and I'm very excited to see how their relationship in general might develop in future books. 

[Dreamwa1ker]

On 11/24/2020 at 10:56 PM, Gloomspren said:

My immediate thought was that we might have another lgbtq+ icon on our hands, since (as far as we know) mateform seems to be a heterosexual pairing for the purpose of producing children. Anyone else have thoughts on this (or the quote lol).

Here is the quote, chapter 79:

Quote

Should they … try to rebuild? The idea nauseated him for multiple reasons. For one, the times he’d tried mateform himself, things hadn’t gone the way he—or anyone really—had expected.

I missed it totally the first time - read it as he wouldn't want to mate with Venli because he doesn't like her or what she did. But now that I reread I missed the two big flags - the fact it says MULTIPLE reasons, (so probably not just that it's Venli specifically), and that last line is a really big hint.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Dreamwa1ker

[Quantus]

Late to the game, sorry, came looking to see if anyone else thought this line was significant.  

 

On 11/30/2020 at 11:08 PM, Dreamwa1ker said:

Here is the quote, chapter 79:

Quote

Should they … try to rebuild? The idea nauseated him for multiple reasons. For one, the times he’d tried mateform himself, things hadn’t gone the way he—or anyone really—had expected.

 

 

On 11/25/2020 at 0:03 AM, Sasja2112 said:

I wondered if it could be possible for him to be trans (ie, turning into female mateform instead of male), but there's really nothing else to suggest a) that Rlain has a femalen identitiy outside of mateform, and also b ) until recently he wouldn't have had access to the kind of bond that does large scale physiological changes to match identity.

He does have access to major physical modifications, just not the more open-ended Stormlight Spiritual Healing.  But the Forms already change a singer's Gender.  "Male" and "Female" exist almost Exclusively, in Mateform, for the vast majority of the other forms, they get the neutered Malen and Femalen genders, and WOB confirms that Singer culture recognizes at least one more, a 5th non-binary gender.  

All that to say that given the cultural views and the fact that Gender change is already part of the Form Change, I could easily see Rlain being Gender-fluid more than anything, spending most of his time (and viewing his self-identity) as the Malen we've mostly seen, but making a change to Femalen if he goes into Mateform.  Given the "or anyone really" part of the quote, I suspect whatever happened was clearly visible/obvious to the others of his community.  

[Rushu42]

On 1/21/2021 at 2:26 PM, Quantus said:

Given the "or anyone really" part of the quote, I suspect whatever happened was clearly visible/obvious to the others of his community.

The "or anyone, really" does make a big impact. Rlain being gay is the obvious conclusion, (it's the one I drew while reading) but that would have to mean that being gay among listeners is pretty unprecedented. I mean, maybe that just means that it's unusual, but having no one at all anticipate it seems like a stretch. Obviously he could be exaggerating, or maybe it's just because he went into expecting heterosexuality, but it seems to imply something particularly odd.

[mathiau]

21 hours ago, Rushu42 said:

The "or anyone, really" does make a big impact. Rlain being gay is the obvious conclusion, (it's the one I drew while reading) but that would have to mean that being gay among listeners is pretty unprecedented. I mean, maybe that just means that it's unusual, but having no one at all anticipate it seems like a stretch. Obviously he could be exaggerating, or maybe it's just because he went into expecting heterosexuality, but it seems to imply something particularly odd.

Also, am I the only one who remember Rlain commented he felt something weird when he first transformed to warform?

 

On 25/11/2020 at 9:49 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I don’t think he can be ace because of how mateform is implied to work. Listeners/Singers are always ace EXCEPT when in mateform. In mateform they essentially get blasted with “have sex and procreate” hormones. They aren’t human, and their bodies and hormones don’t work like humans.

They're probably not ace in dullform too.

Singers seems to be "no sex drive" ace, Rlain could be "disgusted by the idea of sex" ace, I see no reason mateform would change that. And being both constantly aroused and squeaked would definitely count as a weird thing happening.

On 26/11/2020 at 2:28 PM, KandraAllomancer said:

Not confirmed explicitly, but as close as we can get right now:

Are we sure he's not talking about Renarin? He confirmed he had a crush on Rlain and I don't know if it was before or after the WoB you quote.

[KandraAllomancer]

18 hours ago, mathiau said:

Are we sure he's not talking about Renarin? He confirmed he had a crush on Rlain and I don't know if it was before or after the WoB you quote.

Hints about Renarin come from Oathbringer (chapter 55) and WoBs; RoW, on the other hand, points to Rlain

Actually, the whole thing was resolved just a few days ago: Brandon was part of the last Shardcast. At 1:31:00 he talks about Renarin and Rlain, and how he wanted a same sex relationship from two PoVs to avoid tokenism and have more variety in representation

[CameronUluvara]

Rlain can't be genderfluid in mateform or he wouldn't have thought that rebuilding with Venli would be possible, if not desirable.

[Kyn]

6 hours ago, CameronUluvara said:

Rlain can't be genderfluid in mateform or he wouldn't have thought that rebuilding with Venli would be possible, if not desirable.

Genuinely curious, how does genderfluidity relate to the rest of what you said?

[CameronUluvara]

 the idea that Rlain could consider himself to be male but be biologically female, which would show up obviously in mateform, can't be right because in rhythm of war he thought briefly about trying to continue the listener race with Venli, so he must have thought that it was biologically possible, therefore not genderfluid. Sorry for the lack of clarity...maybe transgender is the appropriate term?

Edited February 24, 2021 by CameronUluvara