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There is one imposter Connected to us [Discuss]


LewsTherinTelescope

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0. TL;DR

Ba-Ado-Mishram is an ancient, natural Bondsmith spren of Odium, and the "spren" of the Eila Stele's "spren, stone, and wind"[27].

1. Wait, isn't that the Sibling?

Spoiler

I originally thought the same. Except, the Sibling says that they were created as the common ground between humans and spren.[1] Problem is, if the Sibling was created to be the common ground between humans and spren.... well, they're probably not old enough to be a god of the Dawnsingers, much less one that the Dawnsingers would feel "betrayed" them by siding with the humans (if the Sibling was partly created for humans, it siding with them would be expected). Thus, we need to find a new suspect.

2. Okay then, why Ba-Ado-Mishram?

Spoiler

Well, first, Mishram has the power to make Light, like the Bondsmith spren:

  • The Stormfather provides Stormlight to the highstorm [2]
  • The Nightwatcher's Valley has Lifelight [3]
  • The Sibling provides Towerlight to Urithiru [4]
  • And interestingly, Ba-Ado-Mishram was able to provide Voidlight  [5]

Second, Mishram's capture apparently screwed Roshar up real bad:

  • The Sibling could no longer make Towerlight after the capture [6]
  • The Sibling says the souls of all who are of Roshar were touched by Mishram's imprisonment [6]
  • The Radiant spren did not expect to go deadeye at the Recreance, implying that spren dying upon a broken Ideal hadn't happened before [7]
  • Kalak says Mishram must be found and freed, because her capture wounded Roshar [8]

And as for which is which:

  • Stormfather = Wind
    • Does this need further explanation?
  • Nightwatcher = Stone
    • The Nightwatcher is of Cultivation, which is often associated with growth. On Roshar, life would likely be associated with the stone of the ground, the hard carapace of almost all native creatures, etc.
    • I do not think she is spren of all stone, just as the Stormfather is not spren of all wind, but of the highstorm. Perhaps the Nightwatcher is the spren of the continent Roshar, although that is a wild guess and not a solid theory I am putting forward.
  • Ba-Ado-Mishram = Spren
    • Her capture clearly wounded spren, which would indicate some form of connection.
    • Again, probably not spren of spren as a whole. Unsure what exactly she's spren of, however.

3. But why do you think she wasn't Unmade?

Spoiler

Roshar naturally has a lot of at least two of the three Shards Invested on it, and indications a third was part of it too (presumably Odium).

  • The spren have lots of Cultivation, and have since the Shattering [9]
  • Originally, Honor and Cultivation were equally Invested [10]
  • Moons (I know, I know, this is flimsy evidence)
    • Salas is violet [11]
    • Nomon is blue and called "Honor's moon" by the listeners [12]
    • Mishim is green [13]
  • System was designed by Adonalsium [14]

Additionally, the Stormfather and Nightwatcher likely predate the Shattering in some form (though not necessarily how they are now:

  • The highstorm predates the Shattering [22]
  • The highstorm and crem were Invested pre-Shattering [23]
  • Animals dependent on the highstorm evolved pre-Shattering [24]
  • Whether or not the Nightwatcher predates the Shattering was RAFO'd on the grounds that the same answer would apply to the Stormfather, which he did not want to answer about [25]
    • This was pre-Oathbringer, so Brandon did not want to touch on the Stormfather in WoBs at the time.

It seems odd to me that the planet would just so happen to have an equal amount of Honor and Cultivation, one Bondsmith spren for each, one moon for each, etc, on a planet and system we know were designed for a purpose. This, along with the likely mention of three Dawnsinger gods, and a moon just so happening to be the color of the Light of the third Shard there, I think indicates Odium may have had Investiture on the planet as well, and perhaps his own Bondsmith spren.

4. And if she was Unmade?

Spoiler

I saw a cool theory that hinges upon her actually being Unmade, so I figured I'd collect the reasoning for it here (thanks to whoever it was on the Discord who suggested it, I unfortunately forget who):

  • Honorspren think the singers are traitors [15]
  • Leshwi is happy to learn Venli bonded a spren, because she thinks it means the spren forgave them [16]
  • Truespren do not bond singers due to certain events in the past [17]
  • The Unmaking of Mishram would probably have bad effects on the spren, considering that her capture did (everything in Section 2b)

The theory goes, what if the "betrayal" is that, after Odium corrupted Mishram, the Fused still joined him? The spren would be pretty pissed off at the Fused for that. Possibly pissed off enough to, several millennia later, never bond singers.

5. Why did she gain new abilities at the time of the False Desolation?

Spoiler

I have two theories. One, she just learned to use her power more effectively. Two, she took a Bondsmith, and they used their powers for the craziest feats.

  • Honor in the past limited Bondsmiths [18]
  • Melishi was less bound than earlier Bondsmiths, indicating the limits were breaking [18]
  • A Bondsmith without Honor's limitations can do some crazy stuff [18]
  • Encouraging the Bondsmiths to expand was considered seditious, implying it was at least theoretically possible (which does not always equal actually possible) [19]

Flaw: Nobody ever mentions a Mishram Bondsmith. This theory is thus much more speculative than the rest, as there is little evidence for it,

6. There's a few WoBs and quotes that contradict the theory...

Spoiler

There are a couple WoBs that possibly throw the idea of her being a Bondsmith spren into question:

  • The various Unmade in general are an analogy to the Stormfather and Nightwatcher [20]
  • The Bondsmith Unmade is the missing one, although the association is "fuzzy" [21]

I'll start with the latter first. Mishram was definitely doing some crazy Connection shenanigans. So.... I don't know, that feels odd. For now, I am not trying to fit the WoB into anything, as I have no idea what else it could be.

For the former, all I can say is that Ba-Ado-Mishram appears extremely important to Roshar, and I cannot believe that capturing anything below a Bondsmith-level spren could change every spren that did or would exist in a significant way.

 

For the Bondsmith spren predating the Shattering:

  • Wyndle mentions the Nightwatcher being created by Cultivation to grow up without much external influence [26]

I do not think this actually contradicts the Nightwatcher being pre-Shattering, as I believe "create" here refers to sapience. The Stormfather was incredibly different just pre-Honor's Splintering (describing it as "before I fully lived [18]), I think "creating" could reasonably applied to "shaping into a very different form and bringing it fully to life".

7. References

Spoiler
  1. Rhythm of War chapter 110
    Spoiler

    That is it, the Sibling whispered to the Rhythm of the Tower. My song.

    “Our emulsifier,” Navani whispered to the Rhythm of the Tower.

    The common ground, the Sibling said. Between humans and spren. That is … that is why I was created, so long ago.…

  2. Paris signing (Oct. 22, 2016)
    Spoiler

    Narkac

    Where does the Stormlight in highstorms come from? Is there like a "rain cycle", but for the Stormlight?

    Brandon Sanderson

    The Stormlight in the highstorm is transferred from the Spiritual realm through the Stormfather into the highstorm.

  3. Read For Pixels 2018 (Sept. 1, 2018)
    Spoiler

    MiToRo94

    Honor has Stormlight and Odium has Voidlight, is there a Cultivationlight? If so, can an Invested person use it as a third magic on Roshar or is a boon/curse the only magic of Cultivation/Nightwatcher?

    Brandon Sanderson

    There is more! I'll just say that, the rest is Read And Find Out. You are theorizing in an accurate direction.

  4. Rhythm of War chapter 69
    Spoiler

    Towerlight is my Light, the Light I could create.

    “Did you need a Bondsmith to make it?”

    No. I could make it on my own. And my Bondsmith could create it, through their bond with me.

  5. Oathbringer chapter 80 epigraph
    Spoiler

    Ba-Ado-Mishram has somehow Connected with the parsh people, as Odium once did. She provides Voidlight and facilitates forms of power. Our strike team is going to imprison her.

    —From drawer 30-20, fourth emerald

  6. Rhythm of War chapter 49
    Spoiler

    I have … been wounded. Thousands of years ago, something happened that changed the singers. It hurt me too.

    Navani covered her shock. “You’re speaking of the binding of that Unmade, which made the singers lose their forms?”

    Yes. That terrible act touched the souls of all who belong to Roshar. Spren too.

    “How have no spren mentioned this?”

    I don’t know. But I lost the rhythm of my Light that day. The tower stopped working.

  7. Rhythm of War chapter 94
    Spoiler

    “Did you know the full cost, Maya?” Adolin asked, the question suddenly occurring to him. “Did you and your Radiants know that you would become deadeyes?”

    Adolin felt Maya searching deep, pushing through her exhaustion, seeking … memories that were difficult for her to access. Eventually, she shook her head and whispered, “Pain. Yes. Death? No. Maybe.”

  8. Rhythm of War, chaper 97 epigraph
    Spoiler

    As one who has suffered for so many centuries … as one whom it broke … please find Mishram and release her. Not just for her own good. For the good of all spren.

    For I believe that in confining her, we have caused a greater wound to Roshar than any ever realized.

  9.  Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017) 
    Spoiler

    Chaos

    So, at the Forbidden Planet signing you said that when Adonalsium was Shattered, all Investiture in the cosmere was associated to one of the Shards... So, what happened with Adonalsium's spren on Roshar? Were those associated to Honor and Cultivation? What happened with them?

    Brandon Sanderson

    So they were very-- They were already associated to certain parts of Adonalsium and they went with those associations. There's a lot of Cultivation in all of the spren, particularly the natural spren.

    Footnote: Chaos is referencing this exchange.

  10. Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)
    Spoiler

    Volratho

    Was Roshar equally Invested by Cultivation and Honor originally?

    Brandon Sanderson

    Yes.

    [...]

  11. The Way of Kings, chapter 2
    Spoiler

    Violet Salas peeked over the horizon to the east, seeming hesitant at first, as if making sure the sun had vanished.

  12. Rhythm of War chapter 31
    Spoiler

    The bright azure light of Honor’s Moon revealed [...]

  13. The Way of Kings, chapter 23
    Spoiler

    [...] and the small green disk of Mishim—the final moon—was rising in the east.

  14. Words of Radiance, chapter 66 epigraph
    Spoiler

    Is not the destruction we have wrought enough? The worlds you now tread bear the touch and design of Adonalsium. Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain.

  15. Rhythm of War, chapter 87
    Spoiler

    “Be careful what you say—you will encourage us to return to the singers. They betrayed us long ago, but never on the scale of the humans.”

  16. Rhythm of War, chapter 109
    Spoiler

    “Sorry…” Leshwi said. A joyspren burst around her, beautiful, like a blue storm. “Sorry? Venli, they’ve come back to us! They’ve forgiven us.

  17. Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)
    Spoiler

    Questioner

    What would happen if a Parshendi were to attract a spren and bring it into the Highstorm? Like, an Honorspren of some sort?

    Brandon Sanderson

    Sapient spren have a choice of whether they get bonded or not, unless you entrap them some way. But simply attracting them...simply going into the Highstorm with one wouldn't work, what you said is 'attracted a spren', so, to answer that actually... The thing is, honorspren, all the spren of Honor and Cultivation, not honorspren capital, Honorspren or whatever... The spren that create the orders of the Knights Radiant have not, in the past, been attracted to Parshendi because of certain events in the past.

    [...]

  18. Rhythm of War chapter 66
    Spoiler

    “I see them,” he whispered. “Finally.”

    The Stormfather rumbled in the back of his mind. I was not certain it could be done, he said. The power of Bondsmiths was tempered by Honor, for the good of all. Ever since the destruction of Ashyn.

    “How did you know about this ability?” Dalinar said, eyes still closed.

    I heard it described before I fully lived. Melishi saw these lines.

  19. Words of Radiance, chapter 44 epigraph
    Spoiler

    But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.

    —From Words of Radiance, chapter 16, page 14

  20.  JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016) 
    Spoiler

    Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

    1) The Nightwatcher and Stormfather are parallel entities such that Nighwatcher:Cultivation :: Stormfather:Honor.

    2) There is sort of a parallel for Odium, but the parallel is the various Unmade instead of a single entity.

    3) They are parallel in that they are all Splinters.

    4) The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily Splintered part of it's power.

    5) The Stormfather is different from the others because it's a Sliver.

  21. Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)
    Spoiler

    XS-Terrain

    Also, does each of the Unmade have a corresponding order of the Knights Radiant?

    Brandon Sanderson

    Eh... Kind of.

    XS-Terrain

    Ok. So there are nine Unmade right, so which one is left out?

    Brandon Sanderson

    Bondsmith. But it's not as one to one, there's some fuzziness in there.

  22. Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)
    Spoiler

    Questioner

    Pre-Shattering magic in books?

    Brandon Sanderson

    Let's see. I would count the highstorms as that. Highstorm predates the Shattering. Now, the highstorm has been changed dramatically by certain events, but the highstorm does predate the Shattering.

  23. Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)
    Spoiler

    Questioner

    Has stormwater tasted metallic always?

    Brandon Sanderson

    Yes.

    Questioner

    Even pre-Shattering?

    Brandon Sanderson

    Even pre-Shattering it would get a metallic taste, that's the crem. So. That is an indication of Investiture and things. But it was there-- it was in place first, before.

  24. JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)
    Spoiler

    Questioner

    You mentioned the ecology on Roshar, and also you mentioned that mostly the non-sentient spren predate the Shattering of Adonalsium. So my question is about the evolution of life on Roshar, and how essential the highstorms are to life on Roshar, how the plants evolved, so can we assume that life that is dependent on the highstorms predates the Shattering of Adonalsium?

    Brandon Sanderson

    Um… You--

    Questioner

    Can we correctly assume?

    Brandon Sanderson

    --yeah, *laughter* I'll tell you this. The highstorms predate, and there was a lot of natural evolution on Roshar, resulting in a lot of what we have there.

  25. JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)
    Spoiler

    KolinahrMaster (paraphrased)

    Does the Nightwatcher predate the Shattering?

    Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

    RAFO'ed on the grounds that the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather are parallel (see 1 above) and whatever he reveals about the Nightwatcher by extension spoils Oathbringer which will be heavy on Dalinar and Stormfather reveals

  26. Rhythm of War interlude 5
    Spoiler

    “I have met the Nightwatcher,” Wyndle said. “She does not … think the same way the rest of us do. Cultivation created her to be apart, separated from humankind, un-Connected. Mortal perception of the Nightwatcher does not influence her like it does other spren. Mother wanted a daughter whose shape and personality would grow organically.

    “This makes the Nightwatcher less … well, human … than a spren like me. Still, I don’t believe her capable of lying. It isn’t something she could conceive of, I believe.”

  27. Oathbringer chapter 111
    Spoiler

    We took them in, as commanded by the gods. What else could we do? They were a people forlorn, without home. Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind.

 

Edited by beewall
Added: Source #27 (Eila Stele)
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Fantastic write-up.

I think you're mostly right, but I think that the Unmade are collectively the counterpart to the Stormfather/Nightwatcher (instead of just Ba-Ado-Mishram).

My personal theory is that the Unmade were once a single entity that was shattered/unmade into the entities we have now.  I think that this "Made" would be your bondsmith spren.  As to whether bonding Ba-Ado-Mishram would result in a bondsmith now?  Brandon has said bonding one of the Unmade is possible.  I would be interested to see what happened.

 

The coppermind and Hessi's Mythica think that Ba-Ado-Mishram was unmade:

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ba-Ado-Mishram

The Unmade are collectively parallel to the Stormfather/Nighwatcher:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1) The Nightwatcher and Stormfather are parallel entities such that Nighwatcher:Cultivation :: Stormfather:Honor.

2) There is sort of a parallel for Odium, but the parallel is the various Unmade instead of a single entity.

3) They are parallel in that they are all Splinters.

4) The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily Splintered part of it's power.

5) The Stormfather is different from the others because it's a Sliver.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

Unmade (much?) less powerful than the Stormfather:

Spoiler

Questioner

You've previously said that Nightblood is the most powerful non-Shardic being in the Cosmere. Is he more powerful than the Unmade or Stormfather in terms of raw Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Raw Investiture? Here's the thing, when you say powerful, it can mean lots of different things. More raw Investiture than the Stormfather... probably not. Than the Unmade, probably. I would have to look, I don't have the numbers on this. But the Stormfather is very restricted in what he can do.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

Unmade (and presumably "Made") can be bonded...

Spoiler

Questioner

Can the Unmade be bonded?

Brandon Sanderson

Wow, plausible... Yes, or possible, I should say.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

...but have not been

Spoiler

Questioner

Someone asked you last year if the Unmade could be bonded and you said technically yes. Have we seen any evidence of this, or will we?

Brandon Sanderson

Uhh, you-- Eh-- Not yet, no. It doesn't really happen. Technically it could but it just doesn't really happen.

Shadows of Self London UK signing (Oct. 19, 2015)

The unmade were something before they were unmade (not necessarily a single something, though):

Spoiler

Sja-anat in Oathbringer, Ch. 84: "We were made, then unmade."

 

Symmetry is definitely a huge thing on Roshar, religiously and otherwise, so an Odium bondsmith (or at least the spren) makes a lot of sense, and is my main reason for thinking that the Unmade used to be a single entity (to closer match the Stormfather/Nightwatcher).

Edited by 7h3w1zz
clarity
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38 minutes ago, 7h3w1zz said:

My personal theory is that the Unmade were once a single entity that was shattered/unmade into the entities we have now.  I think that this "Made" would be your bondsmith spren. 

Personally, my thought is the Unmade are from various sources. Some were powerful spren, maybe Cusicesh-level, while others may have originally been human, or singer, or who knows.

40 minutes ago, 7h3w1zz said:

The coppermind and Hessi's Mythica think that Ba-Ado-Mishram was unmade:

I think Ba-Ado-Mishram is one of the nine powerful Splinters of Odium referred to as "the Unmade". However, I think she is a bit of an exception to the norm among them, and never went through the process of Unmaking, instead being of Odium naturally.

42 minutes ago, 7h3w1zz said:

The Unmade are collectively parallel to the Stormfather/Nighwatcher:

I responded to this WoB in the main post, though if you feel my response isn't satisfactory, I don't disagree lol. What I put is:

Quote

For the former, all I can say is that Ba-Ado-Mishram appears extremely important to Roshar, and I cannot believe that capturing anything below a Bondsmith-level spren could change every spren that did or would exist in a significant way.

I doubt Nergaoul's capture had as dramatic an effect as Mishram's seems to have had, hence I find it likely Mishram is more "fundamental" than the other Unmade.

45 minutes ago, 7h3w1zz said:

Unmade (much?) less powerful than the Stormfather:

Most of the Unmade, probably are. I think Mishram's special. (And even then, the Stormfather is..... a strange case. So even if originally she was equal, all the weirdness that happened with the Stormfather around the time of Honor's Splintering probably makes him more powerful than her now.)

47 minutes ago, 7h3w1zz said:

...but have not been

Thanks for this WoB! While it's possible to weasel it to "well we just hadn't seen proper evidence at the time" or something, I think it likely kills the idea she created a Bondsmith for the False Desolation.

49 minutes ago, 7h3w1zz said:

The unmade were something before they were unmade (not necessarily a single something, though):

I'd say 8 of the 9 still were. I feel like Mishram is unique among the Unmade in having not gone through an Unmaking, if my theory is in fact correct.

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Very well articulated, @beewall! The idea of Ba-Ado-Mishram possibly bonding at the time of the False Desolation makes sense! I'm not sure the timeline allows for Ba-Ado-Mishram's restrictions to be lifted after Honor's Death as he seems to have died after the Recreance, which took place after the False Desolation.

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3 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I'm not sure the timeline allows for Ba-Ado-Mishram's restrictions to be lifted after Honor's Death as he seems to have died after the Recreance, which took place after the False Desolation.

Reference 18:

On 11/24/2020 at 7:44 PM, beewall said:

Rhythm of War chapter 66

  Hide contents

“I see them,” he whispered. “Finally.”

The Stormfather rumbled in the back of his mind. I was not certain it could be done, he said. The power of Bondsmiths was tempered by Honor, for the good of all. Ever since the destruction of Ashyn.

“How did you know about this ability?” Dalinar said, eyes still closed.

I heard it described before I fully lived. Melishi saw these lines.

You're definitely correct, Honor was not dead yet at the time of the False Desolation. But he was dying, and the bounds he put on the powers were clearly weakening, as Melishi was able to see the lines, which the Stormfather here implies is something Honor used to stop. 

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This is a well-researched theory, @beewall
 Good job!

Thoughts:

*Three does seem to come up on Roshar a bunch. One that comes to mind is the Horneaters origin myth with the gods of mountain, forest, and water. Since the Horneaters have singer ancestry, there could be a connection here to the three gods of the Dawnsingers.

*Syl does tell Dalinar that the Bondsmith powers were named before humans came to Roshar. Perhaps multiple Shards have the potential for Bondsmiths, or perhaps it was even something that happened with Adonalsium pre-Shattering. Perhaps BAM before being unmade was part of this process and rediscovered it during the False Desolation.

*I think BAM was "Unmade" like the rest, but it is likely Odium picked a spren that was already heavily Connected to and Invested in Roshar and twisted it to his ends. This may also explain the color of Voidlight matching the third moon. Odium's colors appear to be white and gold (every appearence of Odium uses those colors, and Raysium is those colors), so Voidlight being violet seems to point to Odium co-opting and already existing magic for himself. Perhaps unmaking BAM was central to this co-opt.

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2 minutes ago, Weux082690 said:

One that comes to mind is the Horneaters origin myth with the gods of mountain, forest, and water. Since the Horneaters have singer ancestry, there could be a connection here to the three gods of the Dawnsingers.

I actually forgot all about those, lol. I'd have to reread the story, but my gut says forest = NW, water = SF (highstorms have a lot of water, and I could see a "water god takes to the air" sort of mythology), and mountain = Sibling (yes, I believe Mishram was the Dawnsinger god, but I feel it's likely the Horneaters split off more recently, and so the Sibling would be the one they would be more familiar with, especially when we're talking about mountains).

5 minutes ago, Weux082690 said:

Syl does tell Dalinar that the Bondsmith powers were named before humans came to Roshar. Perhaps multiple Shards have the potential for Bondsmiths, or perhaps it was even something that happened with Adonalsium pre-Shattering.

My interpretation of this was Ashyn, since we know they used similar powers there. This would likely mean Odium, but could also mean H+C. Depends on if Odium gave them powers or just encouraged them to use preexisting ones at dangerous levels of power.

7 minutes ago, Weux082690 said:

I think BAM was "Unmade" like the rest, but it is likely Odium picked a spren that was already heavily Connected to and Invested in Roshar and twisted it to his ends.

That's very possible, and I'll admit to that part being a little more gut feeling-based than the main theory.

8 minutes ago, Weux082690 said:

Odium's colors appear to be white and gold (every appearence of Odium uses those colors, and Raysium is those colors)

To be fair, iirc, atium and lerasium aren't exactly their Shards' colors either (though honestly I don't know for 100% certain if we got a description or if I'm misremebering).

Voidlight being violet and Odium being associated with gold is a bit odd, for sure, but I haven't heard any explanation that's fully satisfactory to me, so I tend to err on the side of "Brandon thought it was more appealing, and Shards don't have to have everything the same color" (which itself isn't fully satisfactory either).

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