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Are Adolin and Maya going to lead to mass destruction?


Ba-Ado-Fisherman

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So, if Adolin and Maya eventually figure out a way to restore her completely, will Adolin gain the abilities of an Edgedancer?  If so, does that mean that Adolin will not have to abide by any oaths in order to Surgebind?  Could the deadeyes lead to a situation where anyone can essentially gain their own Honorblade?

 

In Words of Radiance, Syl warns Kaladin regarding Szeth's Honorblade.  

“With this sword, someone can do what you can, but without the . . . checks a spren requires.” She touched it, then shivered visibly, her form blurring for a second. “This sword gave the assassin power to use Lashings, but it also fed upon his Stormlight. A person who uses this will need far, far more Light than you will. Dangerous levels of it.”

I always was perplexed by that last bit... "Dangerous levels of it".  Have we ever had an instance of someone having too much Stormlight, to a point where it became dangerous?  ALSO, notice how Syl says "Light", not Stormlight.  After RoW, this could mean something.  

 

Maybe, before the Recreance, humans and spren were so close that some started to form Connections that weren't Nahel Bonds.  Maybe the Radiants and their spren KNEW that if they abandoned their oaths, all of the other spren would never forgive the humans.  Maybe the Recreance was a staged event specifically meant to make humans look dishonorable and untrustworthy going forward, and so the Radiant's spren made a sacrifice without telling the rest what was really happening. 

 

Now, after such a long time, Adolin inadvertently restarted the process, and Maya has forgotten what happened.  There's probably a bunch of holes in this theory, but I wanted to get it down before I forgot about it. 

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On 11/24/2020 at 0:31 PM, ShalladinForever said:

In Words of Radiance, Syl warns Kaladin regarding Szeth's Honorblade.  

“With this sword, someone can do what you can, but without the . . . checks a spren requires.” She touched it, then shivered visibly, her form blurring for a second. “This sword gave the assassin power to use Lashings, but it also fed upon his Stormlight. A person who uses this will need far, far more Light than you will. Dangerous levels of it.”

I always was perplexed by that last bit... "Dangerous levels of it".  Have we ever had an instance of someone having too much Stormlight, to a point where it became dangerous?  ALSO, notice how Syl says "Light", not Stormlight.  After RoW, this could mean something.  

So to help this make sense, think of Nightblood on a base level as an honorblade. 

Nightblood consumes Investiture, and if you run out of Breath, Stormlight, Voidlight, Lifelight, anything extra, he gnaws on your innate investiture, until you die. 

Honorblades presumably have an unseen negative effect on the wielder when they run out of investiture. 

As to what's going on with Adolin and Maya, well, you just can't make another Honorblade. They are slivers of Honor, and are actually quite different from a shardblade. 

Shardblades are Spren imitating Honorblades. The bonds (and oaths) are what grants the access to surges. A Radiant can still summon a blade without having any Stormlight. Similarly Stormdaddy won't coalesce into a blade for Dalinar but he still has access to his surges. (Weird side note I think it's odd the gloryspren wouldn't plate up around him either at Theylenah)

It's hard to tell what will happen if Maya becomes fully healed. I believe he would have to swear oaths to gain Edgedancer awesomeness, regardless. At best he'll have a living Blade without a nahel bond. There is undoubtedly a bond there, but more of friendship. 

Hope that helps clear up some confusion. Keep theorizing, keep posting (:

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On 11/24/2020 at 0:31 PM, ShalladinForever said:

So, if Adolin and Maya eventually figure out a way to restore her completely, will Adolin gain the abilities of an Edgedancer?  If so, does that mean that Adolin will not have to abide by any oaths in order to Surgebind?

I mean, swearing the Ideals might be part of that process, at least if he plans to get Surges from it. I feel like his current bond is different enough he's not gonna get Surges without swearing proper Ideals.

On 11/24/2020 at 0:31 PM, ShalladinForever said:

Maybe, before the Recreance, humans and spren were so close that some started to form Connections that weren't Nahel Bonds.  Maybe the Radiants and their spren KNEW that if they abandoned their oaths, all of the other spren would never forgive the humans.  Maybe the Recreance was a staged event specifically meant to make humans look dishonorable and untrustworthy going forward, and so the Radiant's spren made a sacrifice without telling the rest what was really happening.

The thing is, according to Maya, the spren didn't expect to die. So they would still be around after to explain it then, unless they were planning to just refuse to ever talk.

On 11/24/2020 at 0:31 PM, ShalladinForever said:

I always was perplexed by that last bit... "Dangerous levels of it".  Have we ever had an instance of someone having too much Stormlight, to a point where it became dangerous? 

Honestly, I'm still unsure of what this is about too. Savantism, maybe? I believe we know a Nahel bond has some protections against it, but an Honorblade might not.

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I've been giving Adolin and Maya some thought recently, and I was wondering what would be involved in reviving her.

Bit of a wild theory but something I think could be quite cool. What if Adolin is slowly progressing through his oaths without actually swearing the ideals. Like he is exemplifying everything he needs to be to a point where he could swear the oaths in quick succession like the way Dalinar spoke the first and second quite quickly? 

What if Maya and her previous radiant were already of the fifth ideal and Adolin needs to reach that level in order to restore her? 

Seems Adolin is a great pillar of strength to a lot of people and seems to be on his way to something amazing, I would love see the restoration of Maya catapult him to the upper echelons of radiance at a pivotal moment.

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On 24/11/2020 at 7:31 PM, ShalladinForever said:

So, if Adolin and Maya eventually figure out a way to restore her completely, will Adolin gain the abilities of an Edgedancer?  If so, does that mean that Adolin will not have to abide by any oaths in order to Surgebind?  Could the deadeyes lead to a situation where anyone can essentially gain their own Honorblade?

 

In Words of Radiance, Syl warns Kaladin regarding Szeth's Honorblade.  

“With this sword, someone can do what you can, but without the . . . checks a spren requires.” She touched it, then shivered visibly, her form blurring for a second. “This sword gave the assassin power to use Lashings, but it also fed upon his Stormlight. A person who uses this will need far, far more Light than you will. Dangerous levels of it.”

I always was perplexed by that last bit... "Dangerous levels of it".  Have we ever had an instance of someone having too much Stormlight, to a point where it became dangerous?  ALSO, notice how Syl says "Light", not Stormlight.  After RoW, this could mean something.  

 

Maybe, before the Recreance, humans and spren were so close that some started to form Connections that weren't Nahel Bonds.  Maybe the Radiants and their spren KNEW that if they abandoned their oaths, all of the other spren would never forgive the humans.  Maybe the Recreance was a staged event specifically meant to make humans look dishonorable and untrustworthy going forward, and so the Radiant's spren made a sacrifice without telling the rest what was really happening. 

 

Now, after such a long time, Adolin inadvertently restarted the process, and Maya has forgotten what happened.  There's probably a bunch of holes in this theory, but I wanted to get it down before I forgot about it. 

I guess that if he restores her she simply bonds him.

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On the topic of Adolin and Maya, it seems like those who said it is an inverse bond, Maya taking something from Adolin were right. No idea how many heart beats it takes for Maya to form now, but as Adolin and Maya continue to travel in the cognitive realm she is continuing to heal. This may also be true of Shall's dead eye too. So that Adolin would gain Edge Dancer abilities seems right. But have we seen any creation spren surrounding Adolin? What happens if a bunch of glory spren decide to be his plate? Or reviving Maya does something weird and revives his plate too (I wonder if she can wake them up somewhat). Would he get a mixture of powers?

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 12/1/2020 at 8:04 AM, Arch1tect said:

So to help this make sense, think of Nightblood on a base level as an honorblade. 

Nightblood consumes Investiture, and if you run out of Breath, Stormlight, Voidlight, Lifelight, anything extra, he gnaws on your innate investiture, until you die. 

Honorblades presumably have an unseen negative effect on the wielder when they run out of investiture. 

As to what's going on with Adolin and Maya, well, you just can't make another Honorblade. They are slivers of Honor, and are actually quite different from a shardblade. 

Shardblades are Spren imitating Honorblades. The bonds (and oaths) are what grants the access to surges. A Radiant can still summon a blade without having any Stormlight. Similarly Stormdaddy won't coalesce into a blade for Dalinar but he still has access to his surges. (Weird side note I think it's odd the gloryspren wouldn't plate up around him either at Theylenah)

It's hard to tell what will happen if Maya becomes fully healed. I believe he would have to swear oaths to gain Edgedancer awesomeness, regardless. At best he'll have a living Blade without a nahel bond. There is undoubtedly a bond there, but more of friendship. 

Hope that helps clear up some confusion. Keep theorizing, keep posting (:

Sorry for the late reply, but when I said that anyone could essentially gain their own Honorblade, I meant that anyone could form a strong enough Bond with a Spren that gives them access to Surgebinding without the limitations of sworn Oaths.  Sort of like Szeth wielding Jezerien's blade.  He committed awful acts of violence that no Knight Radiant would be able to do without severing their Nahel Bond.  

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I don't think reviving Mara would be enough to make Adolin a Radiant, I think the bound between tehm would just be a stronger version of the normal shardblade-user bound and not a Nahel bound and while I think Adolin will probably be able to form a Nahel bound with her it's because he's already acting like a decent Edgedancer.

On 19/12/2020 at 3:09 AM, ShalladinForever said:

Sort of like Szeth wielding Jezerien's blade.  He committed awful acts of violence that no Knight Radiant would be able to do without severing their Nahel Bond.  

A Skybreaker with Taravangian as their third oath would have no problem doing that, and if Jasnah really thought she had to do it I think she would (remember her plan for the Herald in Oathbringer?)

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 11/24/2020 at 11:31 AM, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

I always was perplexed by that last bit... "Dangerous levels of it".  Have we ever had an instance of someone having too much Stormlight, to a point where it became dangerous?  ALSO, notice how Syl says "Light", not Stormlight.  After RoW, this could mean something.  

In the end of WoK, Kaladin used too much Stormlight while trying to get Bridge 4 to the chasm to save Dalinar and his army. He had to swear the 2nd Ideal to overcome the negative effects of using as much Stormlight as he did.  I believe we've also seen Szeth and Kaladin freezing their clothing from using large amounts of Stormlight. So it's mostly a problem for Radiants that are on the earlier Ideals, Honorblade wielders, and possibly even Soulcasters. I would guess that Szeth had a lot of training to make sure he knew the limits of the Honorblades. We haven't really seen Moash cut loose with the Honorblade, otherwise I'd think he'd run up against that limit, could be something we see in book 5. 

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14 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

In the end of WoK, Kaladin used too much Stormlight while trying to get Bridge 4 to the chasm to save Dalinar and his army. He had to swear the 2nd Ideal to overcome the negative effects of using as much Stormlight as he did.  I believe we've also seen Szeth and Kaladin freezing their clothing from using large amounts of Stormlight. So it's mostly a problem for Radiants that are on the earlier Ideals, Honorblade wielders, and possibly even Soulcasters. I would guess that Szeth had a lot of training to make sure he knew the limits of the Honorblades. We haven't really seen Moash cut loose with the Honorblade, otherwise I'd think he'd run up against that limit, could be something we see in book 5. 

The description looked a lot like what happened to Lift and Szeth with Nightblood, or to Ann with the Shades

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On 3.12.2020 at 8:46 PM, Holy Kayak said:

I've been giving Adolin and Maya some thought recently, and I was wondering what would be involved in reviving her.

Bit of a wild theory but something I think could be quite cool. What if Adolin is slowly progressing through his oaths without actually swearing the ideals. Like he is exemplifying everything he needs to be to a point where he could swear the oaths in quick succession like the way Dalinar spoke the first and second quite quickly? 

What if Maya and her previous radiant were already of the fifth ideal and Adolin needs to reach that level in order to restore her? 

Seems Adolin is a great pillar of strength to a lot of people and seems to be on his way to something amazing, I would love see the restoration of Maya catapult him to the upper echelons of radiance at a pivotal moment.

This.

Nahel Bond isnt simply Connection between human and Spren. Bonded with Nahel Bond Spren and Human becoms one Entity from the point of view from Spiritual Realm. They are meldet into one. Probably adding also corresponding lesser spren to it, because Plate has also the same Identity. All elements of Investet System Radiant-True Spren-Lesser spren have the same Identity.

So Spren and Radiant are meldet into one entity, and when Bond is broken, Spren has part of itself, this part meldet with human, literaly ripped off. So to restore this part, Spren needs to meld with human again and rebuild it, using human mind and human Innate Investiture. Practicly, new Bond is needet.

Also, probably human has to progress Oaths to the 3th level at least, because this is when Spren manifested itself as a Blade, so this is also when Spren can return from material Blade form to the normal cognitive form.

On 3.12.2020 at 9:39 PM, Master Silver said:

On the topic of Adolin and Maya, it seems like those who said it is an inverse bond, Maya taking something from Adolin were right. No idea how many heart beats it takes for Maya to form now, but as Adolin and Maya continue to travel in the cognitive realm she is continuing to heal. This may also be true of Shall's dead eye too. So that Adolin would gain Edge Dancer abilities seems right. But have we seen any creation spren surrounding Adolin? What happens if a bunch of glory spren decide to be his plate? Or reviving Maya does something weird and revives his plate too (I wonder if she can wake them up somewhat). Would he get a mixture of powers?

Shallan will have much easier job with Testament, because she was its Radiant, so need to just rebuild their previous Bond.

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Kaladin al'Thor

I noticed my last time reading Words of Radiance that there were several times-- vines that were on Adolin's shardblade as he summoned it. So I was wondering if maybe the Radiant who used it had was an Edgedancer?

Brandon Sanderson

You are right.

Kaladin al'Thor

You mentioned before that it would be possible to revive a dead shard[blade], but it would be very difficult--

Brandon Sanderson

Very difficult.

Kaladin al'Thor

Like I think what you said is that it would have to be the same person that broke the bond?

Brandon Sanderson

That would be the-- Yeah.

Kaladin al'Thor

So if it was an Edgedancer's blade if he made those same oaths could potentially he…

Brandon Sanderson

That would most likely not be enough. Something else would have to happen. Good guess though.

His old Dead Plate was probably Dustbringer Plate, so no connection (and Connection) with Maya. We dont know witch lesser spren will respond to Edgedacer, probably Lifespren.

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On 11/24/2020 at 1:31 PM, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

There's probably a bunch of holes in this theory, but I wanted to get it down before I forgot about it. 

I think you're on to something with the "dangerous levels of light" bit, but the Recreance reaction couldn't have been that well planned in advance, seeing as the spren didn't even think they would die, and I find it hard to believe that Adolin wouldn't need to say oaths. I think his bond with Maya is just similar to Kal's at the start of book 1. 

The oathless surges idea is an interesting one though, there have been a ton of mentions from the Stormfather about how the oaths aren't working the same way anymore, etc.

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Question, what makes you think his old plate is Dustbringer plate? Also, in regards to Shallan. I think you are correct that it will be easier for her to revive her old blade. Assuming her new bond doesn't interfere with it. It would also be interesting if the reason she is rubbish at the surge of transformation is because that is what her and Testament excelled at, and now she has a mental block. So in an ironic twist she was the soul caster that first made her family wealthy. And when she finishes re-swearing her old oaths, she will soul cast like Jasinah and and light weave like Shallan. Also, isn't there a form of fighting with two blades? Adolin/Dalinar's Reshadium should get the extra set of plate since Shallan won't need it. 

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10 hours ago, Master Silver said:

Question, what makes you think his old plate is Dustbringer plate? Also, in regards to Shallan. I think you are correct that it will be easier for her to revive her old blade. Assuming her new bond doesn't interfere with it. It would also be interesting if the reason she is rubbish at the surge of transformation is because that is what her and Testament excelled at, and now she has a mental block. So in an ironic twist she was the soul caster that first made her family wealthy. And when she finishes re-swearing her old oaths, she will soul cast like Jasinah and and light weave like Shallan. Also, isn't there a form of fighting with two blades? Adolin/Dalinar's Reshadium should get the extra set of plate since Shallan won't need it. 

Dalinar saw it in one vision. This one on the Purelake. He recognizes this Plate, and Radiant is most likely Dustbringer.

Smokestance has variation for dual-wielding. But I think after reviving Testament Shallan will safely unbond one of her Spren - we know it is possible, though somewhat painfull for spren.

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Great discussion... so many interesting questions.  We've been told repeatedly that the Recreance (and surrounding events) changed how spren and surges work, and that things are fundamentally different now.  I get a good laugh at the impressive number of times the Stormfather says "this is not possible" about something that is clearly happening.  

I won't say using past examples to predict future events is wrong, per se, but - knowing Brandon - my spheres are on Adolin and Maya becoming something completely new that has NEVER been seen before.  Not only do we NOT know what will happen, we CAN'T know.  But it's still fun to guess!

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On 1/5/2021 at 3:14 AM, Lunu’anaki said:

I think you're on to something with the "dangerous levels of light" bit, but the Recreance reaction couldn't have been that well planned in advance, seeing as the spren didn't even think they would die, and I find it hard to believe that Adolin wouldn't need to say oaths. I think his bond with Maya is just similar to Kal's at the start of book 1. 

The oathless surges idea is an interesting one though, there have been a ton of mentions from the Stormfather about how the oaths aren't working the same way anymore, etc.

What piques my interest is that Adolin is one of the last remaining main characters that isn't a Radiant, and I know I'm not alone in wanting him to stay that way.  Seeing all of our main characters become KR's gets a little repetitive after a while, and I think Brandon has a really nice opportunity to make Adolin something different.  Now, he could just stay a normal person and never gain the ability to surgebind, which I would be fine with.  But I think it would be really cool to see unlock the ability to surgebind through a different path with Maya.  

 

I definitely think you're right though.  The Nahel Bond allows Radiants to access Investiture through the Spiritual Realm, so without that bond, I don't see how Adolin could surgebind.  My most likely theory is that once Ba-Ado-Mishram is released, Adolin will be able to form a Nahel Bond with Maya and become an Edgedancer.  Maybe even a special Edgedancer with a corrupted cultivationspren?  It would be cool to have both Renarin and Adolin with corrupted spren.

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1 hour ago, Ba-Ado-Fisherman said:

Maybe even a special Edgedancer with a corrupted cultivationspren?  It would be cool to have both Renarin and Adolin with corrupted spren.

It would definitely not be the same kind of corruption though

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If Adolin doesn't become a full Radiant, and he just ends up with a stronger connection to Maya as a blade, what would that entail? 

Besides that, we don't really even understand how deadeye Shardblades work. Are they just manifesting in the Physical Realm without a bond? We know something like that is possible from Soulcasters and similar, but how they make it happen is still kind of vague.

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I suspect that there were Nahel bonds between singers and intelligent spren before, but they didn’t grant as much of the powers of surgebinding until however the Knights Radiants were founded. Leshwi obviously had a close relationship with an honorspren, which I suspect was the old type of Nahel bond. We also saw ancient singers creating stone tools from that memory of the stones Venli saw when experimenting with stoneshaping.

I think Adolin may be on track to a similar version of an old, less formal bond with Maya, before the oaths of the Knights Radiants were needed.

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27 minutes ago, Bri-Y said:

I suspect that there were Nahel bonds between singers and intelligent spren before, but they didn’t grant as much of the powers of surgebinding until however the Knights Radiants were founded. Leshwi obviously had a close relationship with an honorspren, which I suspect was the old type of Nahel bond. We also saw ancient singers creating stone tools from that memory of the stones Venli saw when experimenting with stoneshaping.

I think Adolin may be on track to a similar version of an old, less formal bond with Maya, before the oaths of the Knights Radiants were needed.

I really like this idea. It's directly foreshadowed and it would make sense for a lot of healed deadeyes to avoid Radiant Bonds and go back to the Old Ways. It also works really well with the points about Adolin as a character which @Ba-Ado-Fisherman made.

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