On Cultivation's Intent restricting her moves against Odium

[mawaschwa]

Just a thought I've had about Cultivation's plan re: preparing Taravangian to take up the Shard of Odium. Cultivation has held her Shard for thousands of years at this point, so I think it's safe to assume at this point that the Intent of the Shard restricts her ability to act with her power in ways that contradict that Intent. When Vin took up Preservation, she was so new that she could use the power of Preservation to attack Ruin more directly--she hadn't been molded by the Intent of the Shard quite yet. But Cultivation does not have this liberty--she can only Cultivate, and this seems pretty counter to her being able to Splinter Odium once Rayse was killed.

Knowing this, I believe her only option was to Cultivate someone who could replace Rayse as Vessel to Odium. Her touch on Taravangian was exactly this--she says as much at the end of RoW when she greets Taravangian as he ascends. We still don't know her true motives or endgame, but I've got to say I'm impressed with her ability to work within the confines of her Intent to counter Odium (even if, in doing so, she's created a bigger monster).

[+JesterLavorre]

I really like this idea, that Cultivation can’t act in an instantaneous manner. I’ve always thought of the cultivation shard as having very few downsides, and this weakness seems like something to fill that hole.

[+Oltux72]

On 24.11.2020 at 7:18 PM, mawaschwa said:

Just a thought I've had about Cultivation's plan re: preparing Taravangian to take up the Shard of Odium. Cultivation has held her Shard for thousands of years at this point, so I think it's safe to assume at this point that the Intent of the Shard restricts her ability to act with her power in ways that contradict that Intent.

Yes.

On 24.11.2020 at 7:18 PM, mawaschwa said:

When Vin took up Preservation, she was so new that she could use the power of Preservation to attack Ruin more directly--she hadn't been molded by the Intent of the Shard quite yet. But Cultivation does not have this liberty--she can only Cultivate, and this seems pretty counter to her being able to Splinter Odium once Rayse was killed.

Cultivation is not Preservation. She can kill, she just cannot destroy. If she needs to clear a forest to plant fields, she can do that if the fields are better. She can prune and weed.

She likely would not even have a problem with a conqueror. He is replacing the weaker with the stronger. Just punitive expeditions that only leave scorched earth are not her thing. The thorns are included in her domain.

 

[Golstar]

I think an important aspect of Cultivation is passivity. She plants a seed and waits for it to sprout. She trims the branches and waters the soil. She may even yank up some weeds - or sacrifice life to create mulch. But a gardener does not constantly interfere with plants. She sets events in motion and guide them to fruition. Even though Odium may be a wild beast chained in the middle of her garden, I think the intent still governs her way of responding.

Splintering as a concept raises some interesting questions when it comes to Cultivation. First off, I think splintering is misunderstood as merely *the* way to "pacify" a Shard. I disagree - Odium dealt with the three previously defeated shards by making it impossible for new vessels to take them up. Weakening and splintering a Shard probably makes this a lot easier to accomplish - but additional measures need to be taken. Devotion and Dominion were trapped in the Cognitive Realm. Ambition was finished off after escaping Threnody - and thus splintered in an unknown location.

Breaking off part of an unlimited power doesn't diminish it. I would think that splintering as a concept (setting aside the Odious use of it) is extremely in-tune with Cultivation's intent. The splinter is essentially a sapling. But trapping a Shard and preventing a new Vessel from taking it up? That implies stunted growth, stagnation and sterility. Incidentally, the cycle of Desolations - the Rhytm of War - also seems opposed to her intent. Such a cycle needs to go somewhere - branch out - change - evolve - live. I would not be surprised if she had a hand in breaking the stalemate.

Cultivation has now dealt with Rayse. Why would she want to trap or harm Odium the Shard? Splintering Odium would make sense, but only for the purpose of cultivating the splinters into something new, and not to prevent a new Vessel. Redirecting Odium seems much more in-line with her intent. 

She has successfully cultivated a replacement Vessel for Odium, and manipulated circumstances to facilitate the Ascension to occur. I don't think her plans end at this point - she must have already sown the seeds that eventually lead to Odium leaving her garden for good - either on his own or as a Shard of War. I think she would like to keep a few striplings of his power, as that's in-line with her intent, but I think neither alliance nor hostility are of interest to Cultivation.

As for Cultivation and Honor's relationship - I see him as the Sun to her Garden. Honor's Perpendicularity seems to be the most powerful conduits into the Spiritual Realm that we know of. Having access to constant Stormlight seems to fit Cultivation, and gives an extra layer to the relationship of the two Shards, as I don't think prior romantic relations will necessarily carry over to post-Ascension attachment. Except perhaps that Honor may have been bound by pre-Ascension oaths to his love, and thus fulfilled his intent by providing protection and power. This also explains the Stormfather/Cultivation/Odium stand-off - if he is de facto acting as power source to her garden, then she would be rather upset if Odium went and destroyed him.

Very tangential, but we know the Everstorm existed prior to the Shattering. I think Honor and Cultivation nabbing the Everstorm greatly angered Odium and is what made him target Roshar. I think he invaded using the humans of Ashyn - then Honor won the humans over (because he can do that - Honor lives in the hearts of men), Odium created the Fused, the Heralds used the Oathpact to bind the Fused of Braize, and this bound Odium to Braize by extension (as they are immortal Cognitive Shadows invested by Odium).

I think Odium needs to destroy the Heralds and/or the Fused to gain freedom. But they're all immortal so Odium needed Honor to dissolve the Oathpact, which he of course wouldn't do as that would act against his intent. I think now that anti-Light has been created, Odium has a way out, regardless of the outcome in the Contest of Champions. How will Cultivation react to anti-Light?

I don't think she is opposed to pulling out weeds - and I think that is what she thinks of Fused and Heralds. Persistent weeds chaining a bull in her garden. She's calmed the bull by swapping Rayse for Taravangian - next up is getting rid of those weeds, so the bull can finally leave her garden..

[mawaschwa]

On 11/28/2020 at 10:12 AM, Golstar said:

As for Cultivation and Honor's relationship - I see him as the Sun to her Garden. Honor's Perpendicularity seems to be the most powerful conduits into the Spiritual Realm that we know of. Having access to constant Stormlight seems to fit Cultivation, and gives an extra layer to the relationship of the two Shards, as I don't think prior romantic relations will necessarily carry over to post-Ascension attachment. Except perhaps that Honor may have been bound by pre-Ascension oaths to his love, and thus fulfilled his intent by providing protection and power. This also explains the Stormfather/Cultivation/Odium stand-off - if he is de facto acting as power source to her garden, then she would be rather upset if Odium went and destroyed him.

I was following up until about here. Cultivation is a Shard--she holds infinite Investiture. I don't think Honor's Perpendicularity--which no longer even exists in a stable form--is of any particular use to her. I'd be willing to be their Connection pre-Shattering had some impact on them settling in the same system.

On 11/28/2020 at 10:12 AM, Golstar said:

Very tangential, but we know the Everstorm existed prior to the Shattering. I think Honor and Cultivation nabbing the Everstorm greatly angered Odium and is what made him target Roshar. I think he invaded using the humans of Ashyn - then Honor won the humans over (because he can do that - Honor lives in the hearts of men), Odium created the Fused, the Heralds used the Oathpact to bind the Fused of Braize, and this bound Odium to Braize by extension (as they are immortal Cognitive Shadows invested by Odium).

The Everstorm didn't exist pre-Shattering, the Highstorm did. Several characters in the books tell us the Everstorm is a new phenomenon. Either way, I don't think Honor/Cultivation "nabbed" the Highstorm--I think it's more likely that human perception of the storm as a foundational force on Roshar was later conflated with their concept of divinity, which might have made it possible for Honor's cognitive shadow to merge with the Stormfather spren after Honor's death.

Odium has clearly had the goal of shattering the other Shards (to make himself the single-most powerful entity in the cosmere) for a long time. I think he wanted the humans on Ashyn for the same reason he wanted the humans now on Roshar: to serve as his minions in the war for the cosmere. He let the folks on Ashyn experiment with the surges in some way that rendered the planet inhospitable, hence their mass exodus to Roshar.

On 11/28/2020 at 10:12 AM, Golstar said:

I think Odium needs to destroy the Heralds and/or the Fused to gain freedom. But they're all immortal so Odium needed Honor to dissolve the Oathpact, which he of course wouldn't do as that would act against his intent. I think now that anti-Light has been created, Odium has a way out, regardless of the outcome in the Contest of Champions. How will Cultivation react to anti-Light?

I don't think Odium needs to destroy the Fused. Something either about the Oathpact or Honor's death has bound Odium to Roshar--and the one holding Honor's power can release him (Odium pretty much tells Dalinar this during their first confrontation).

Not sure how anti-Light means Odium has a way out. I don't think anti-Light could destroy a Shard, but I guess we don't really know enough about it yet.

On 11/28/2020 at 10:12 AM, Golstar said:

I don't think she is opposed to pulling out weeds - and I think that is what she thinks of Fused and Heralds. Persistent weeds chaining a bull in her garden. She's calmed the bull by swapping Rayse for Taravangian - next up is getting rid of those weeds, so the bull can finally leave her garden..

I don't think Cultivation views the Fused and Heralds as weeds, nor of Odium as a bull in her garden. And I definitely don't think she's "calmed" the bull--I think people are universally agreed that Taravangian being Vessel to Odium is certainly a more dangerous prospect.

Rather, I think you're right that Cultivation views the current stagnation on Roshar--this repetitive war that never ends--as counter to her Intent. The seeds she's planted--via her touch on Dalinar, Lift, and Taravangian (and possibly others we don't know about yet) look to be successful in ending this stasis. We'll have to wait and see how these seeds bear further fruit.

[Golstar]

On 11/29/2020 at 7:32 PM, mawaschwa said:

I don't think Odium needs to destroy the Fused. Something either about the Oathpact or Honor's death has bound Odium to Roshar--and the one holding Honor's power can release him (Odium pretty much tells Dalinar this during their first confrontation).

Just to clarify - I think that whatever Honor did to bind Odium on Braize was initially the only thing keeping him here. But I think that the many cycles of war, in which Odium has invested himself into not just the Fused but also the Unmade has changed this. But once he's released from whatever Honor did, I don't think he will have any compunctions about destroying what invested beings/objects are keeping him chained to Roshar/Braize - and that's where I think anti-Light is helpful to him. Especially if Honor has somehow intervened in the Fused cycle of rebirth, so that Odium can't stop it (even if it's "Odium investiture" being recycled)

We also have this WoB, that to me indicates that keeping the Fused locked away is part of chaining Odium. I am also a bit iffy about this whole Odium-Dalinar thing, I think there's some key aspect Dalinar is completely unaware of, and Hoid+Rayse were both trying to trick him. Maybe Dalinar being bonded to the Stormfather really is enough to free Odium, but that just seems weird to me. The Stormfather is a weak shadow of Honor and is afraid of Odium. I'm sure there's something going on we simply haven't learned yet. But whatever it is - investiture chains a Shard to a system, and Odium is significantly invested in Roshar. 

 

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Eric

For the second letter, Rayse is captured and cannot leave the system he inhabits, Roshar. Is the fact that Odium can't leave Roshar a direct result of the Oathpact, or something else?

Brandon Sanderson

Not a direct result of the Oathpact, but the Oathpact was part of it.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)