Odium & Wit: Which is the storyteller, which is the audience? [Discuss]

[mawaschwa]

I, like many others I think, came away from my first reading of the RoW epilogue with a sense of dread: Hoid, our confident, seemingly untouchable Cosmere guru had just been bested. While we've never really been privy to Hoid's true motivations, we've always just sort of trusted him--especially due to his more proactive nature in Stormlight, where he often gives our main characters the wisdom (and compassion) they need exactly when they need it. Seeing Odium mess with Hoid's Breaths/memories was genuinely scary.

However, after a couple days to ruminate and giving the epilogue a reread, I'm beginning to come around more to the idea that Wit might have actually outmaneuvered Odium in the end.

The whole monologue Wit gives before the confrontation is about the dirty tricks of storytelling: how the audience is actively engaging in a shared lie with the storyteller, which enables the storyteller to "make [the audience] know the truths that [the storyteller has] made up." While at first I took this to mean that Wit was talking about himself as "the storyteller," I think in retrospect within this scene Taravangian/Odium is the storyteller and Wit is the willing audience. Why is this distinction important? Because of what Wit later tells Design:

Quote

And when [the audience walks] away at the end, amazed but knowing they've been lied to--with their permission--the performance lingers in their minds. Because the lie was real somehow. Because they know that if they were to rip it apart, they could know how it was done. They realize there must have been some flaws they could have caught. Signs. Secrets.

When Wit says that his first meeting with Odium in over a thousand years had gone "exactly as he imagined," he's not referring to Odium acting like a pompous evil prick; rather, he's referring to the fact that Wit knew Odium was going to lie to him in some capacity. And so, brilliant as ever, Wit actively went into the confrontation as a willing audience ready to accept whatever lie Odium, the storyteller, was going to present.

When Wit leaves, after the redo of their conversation following Odium's Men-in-Black memory erase flash, he first feels like something is wrong before telling himself: "Don't trouble yourself. This is working." Wit is the audience walking away from the story, with Odium's performance lingering in his mind. He knows he can rip it apart, and figure out how it was done--discover the flaws, signs, and secrets. Wit might not know precisely in that moment what those secrets are--but he knows he has enough information to puzzle them out, and I'm confident he will be able to do so.

With this in mind, I think it's fair to assume the memories held in his Breaths were willingly offered up as a sacrifice to play out Wit's role as a willing audience to Odium's lie. Wit knows Odium can't hurt him directly due to the agreement Dalinar just made, but I find it doubtful Wit wouldn't have imagined Odium would take any shots he could at Wit within the consigns of that agreement. Wit knowingly exposes himself to Odium (before both conversations, the text says Wit "made himself available--visible, easy to reach," probably meaning Wit is turning off whatever he does to hide himself from Shards). He's smart enough to know the risks, and while the lost memories and Breaths will probably be missed--I think Wit must have felt their loss would be worth whatever information he would gain by confronting Odium directly.

[Dracnor]

Why not. That would be reassuring (and kind of disappointing since it would undo the catastrophic apparent issue of the epilogue).

I just have one question : what then of the true terror that Wit felt ? We are getting his PoV so that's not a lie, is it ? Would he be that terrified if he knew it could happen ?

[mawaschwa]

3 minutes ago, Dracnor said:

Why not. That would be reassuring (and kind of disappointing since it would undo the catastrophic apparent issue of the epilogue).

I just have one question : what then of the true terror that Wit felt ? We are getting his PoV so that's not a lie, is it ? Would he be that terrified if he knew it could happen ?

"The challenge...is to make everyone believe you've lived a thousand lives. Make them feel the pain you have not felt..." (from Wit's monologue earlier in the epilogue).

I guess my answer to that would be, he's fulfilling his role as a willing audience member, letting Odium believe that he's made Wit feel this fear, and thus "letting [his] willing energy [vibrate] in tune with [Odium's]," so that Odium fully believes he's played Wit like the ten fools.

 

But yeah, either way that "true terror" Wit feels is scary as a reader!

[Chalke219]

I like this but i think it overlooks that Wit thinks he is dealing with Rayse, a known entity to him. We know this not to be the case so we finally know something Hoid does not, and that is truly terrifying 

 

My take on the storyteller analogy was that its in reference to Brandon himself, and how he has always said not to expect big crossovers with main characters but the recent Odium development and that Thaidakar reveal leave me thinking otherwise 

[TheTuninator]

My fundamental issue with this explanation is that the scene is a third-person limited narrator. Wit isn't telling the audience "I felt true terror", which would certainly be subject to the vagaries of a unreliable narrator. The narrator is telling the audience about Wit, and telling them a raw, emotional reaction by Wit. An unreliable narrator would manifest itself in ways such as Wit making incorrect judgements about himself, or about other people, but this statement isn't portraying a coherent thought process on Wit's part - it's conveying sheer, naked emotion, in this case terror. The meta-textual analysis supports this too. If the scene is of Taravangian-Odium besting Wit, there is a clear narrative purpose: it conveys how much more dangerous Taravangian is than Rayse as Odium by having Taravangian best the savviest, most invulnerable character in the entire series. If the scene is of Wit setting up Taravangian-Odium to destroy some memories, what's the point?

Wit just lost this one, folks.

[mawaschwa]

10 minutes ago, Chalke219 said:

I like this but i think it overlooks that Wit thinks he is dealing with Rayse, a known entity to him. We know this not to be the case so we finally know something Hoid does not, and that is truly terrifying 

 

My take on the storyteller analogy was that its in reference to Brandon himself, and how he has always said not to expect big crossovers with main characters but the recent Odium development and that Thaidakar reveal leave me thinking otherwise 

Fair point. I wholly agree Wit did not know (had no way of knowing) that Taravangian had taken up the Shard. But I also don’t think that negates the fact that Wit was preparing for something unexpected—even if the scope was so much bigger than he anticipated.

Re: being a reference to Brandon himself—sure, I mean I think it’s pretty clear Brandon has frequently used Wit (and his monologues in particular) as a way to inject his own musings about storytelling and art in general. But I don’t think this precludes those musings from also serving a narrative function.

[mawaschwa]

9 minutes ago, TheTuninator said:

My fundamental issue with this explanation is that the scene is a third-person limited narrator. Wit isn't telling the audience "I felt true terror", which would certainly be subject to the vagaries of a unreliable narrator. The narrator is telling the audience about Wit, and telling them a raw, emotional reaction by Wit. An unreliable narrator would manifest itself in ways such as Wit making incorrect judgements about himself, or about other people, but this statement isn't portraying a coherent thought process on Wit's part - it's conveying sheer, naked emotion, in this case terror. The meta-textual analysis supports this too. If the scene is of Taravangian-Odium besting Wit, there is a clear narrative purpose: it conveys how much more dangerous Taravangian is than Rayse as Odium by having Taravangian best the savviest, most invulnerable character in the entire series. If the scene is of Wit setting up Taravangian-Odium to destroy some memories, what's the point?

Wit just lost this one, folks.

Both valid points, and I can’t disagree with you on either. I do think Wit lost in some aspects, I guess my argument is it was a calculated loss (though of course I won’t dismiss the possibility I just really really don’t want Wit to have been bested and am trying to rationalize it post-fact).

I guess my only rebuttal would be, I don’t think Wit feeling true fear wholly negates my points. His emotion might be entirely genuine—he couldn’t have predicted the absolute twist that is Taravangian ascending—and thus his fear might be totally raw and damning. Perhaps this is Odium truthfully hitting Wit where he wasn’t expecting. But Wit still is a master of the dirty tricks of storytelling, and I think despite his fear he was prepared for something unexpected. His fear tells us how much danger we’re now truthfully in—but Wit has valuable info now, despite the blindside.

[TheTuninator]

13 minutes ago, mawaschwa said:

Both valid points, and I can’t disagree with you on either. I do think Wit lost in some aspects, I guess my argument is it was a calculated loss (though of course I won’t dismiss the possibility I just really really don’t want Wit to have been bested and am trying to rationalize it post-fact).

I guess my only rebuttal would be, I don’t think Wit feeling true fear wholly negates my points. His emotion might be entirely genuine—he couldn’t have predicted the absolute twist that is Taravangian ascending—and thus his fear might be totally raw and damning. Perhaps this is Odium truthfully hitting Wit where he wasn’t expecting. But Wit still is a master of the dirty tricks of storytelling, and I think despite his fear he was prepared for something unexpected. His fear tells us how much danger we’re now truthfully in—but Wit has valuable info now, despite the blindside.

That's fair! I think he certainly will have some fail-safes re: tampering with his memories, and I fully expect him to be one of the first people to twig to the fact that something is different with Odium, but I expect it will take quite some time. Taravangian-Odium seems set up to be a pretty monster Part-ending reveal to our protagonists in Book 5.

[StormingTexan]

There are a few of these threads floating around and after reading them and the epilogue a few times now I am firmly in the camp of both sides of the coin (see what I did there). I have no idea who won and I think that was Brandon's entire point of this. 

[TiaOmi]

29 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

There are a few of these threads floating around and after reading them and the epilogue a few times now I am firmly in the camp of both sides of the coin (see what I did there). I have no idea who won and I think that was Brandon's entire point of this. 

I think this is the best place to be - utterly confused, baffled and perplexed. Wit would appreciate it.

I first believed Wit was bested, and despaired because Odium deleted his memory so he'll never know it.

Now I believe he was bested, but that Odium left enough evidence so that he'll figure it out. 

Either way, I'm not happy how the book ended. If I wanted to be left with the feeling of desperation after reading a fantasy book, I'd still be reading Martin. 

[+Bliev]

9 minutes ago, TiaOmi said:

I think this is the best place to be - utterly confused, baffled and perplexed. Wit would appreciate it.

I first believed Wit was bested, and despaired because Odium deleted his memory so he'll never know it.

Now I believe he was bested, but that Odium left enough evidence so that he'll figure it out. 

Either way, I'm not happy how the book ended. If I wanted to be left with the feeling of desperation after reading a fantasy book, I'd still be reading Martin. 

All. Of. This. lol

I believe Wit was bested, but he'll figure it out. I also believe that it was probably a necessary point in our reader/relationship with Wit to see him bested. After all, we do see him as omniscient and omnipotent in most cases. But here he is...bested by an infinite power that he underestimated. I think it marks a turning point for us, where he will become much more important as part of the plot moving forward, and less of an observer/epilogue. I also agree...I see a lot of people expecting book 5 to end in utter destruction, and I'm like...LOOK, I know this isn't a HEA, but I do not expect GRRM when I read BS. lol I want satisfying not horrifying. Plus, we'd then have to wait like a decade to get to a resolution. So, yeah, I am hopeful that this is more like a second book in a trilogy type of feel, but I don't like the taste in my mouth about it. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 hours ago, Bliev said:

All. Of. This. lol

I believe Wit was bested, but he'll figure it out. I also believe that it was probably a necessary point in our reader/relationship with Wit to see him bested. After all, we do see him as omniscient and omnipotent in most cases. But here he is...bested by an infinite power that he underestimated. I think it marks a turning point for us, where he will become much more important as part of the plot moving forward, and less of an observer/epilogue. I also agree...I see a lot of people expecting book 5 to end in utter destruction, and I'm like...LOOK, I know this isn't a HEA, but I do not expect GRRM when I read BS. lol I want satisfying not horrifying. Plus, we'd then have to wait like a decade to get to a resolution. So, yeah, I am hopeful that this is more like a second book in a trilogy type of feel, but I don't like the taste in my mouth about it. 

This reminds me a lot of Ruin’s “I am free!” at the end of WoA. HoA has the whole world brought to the brink of destruction and back, so  I can totally see that level of destruction and MC deaths happen here.

[Shuffel]

Love this theory, big fan. Also think his real memories were stored into the coins.

[Shuffel]

7 hours ago, Chalke219 said:

I like this but i think it overlooks that Wit thinks he is dealing with Rayse, a known entity to him. We know this not to be the case so we finally know something Hoid does not, and that is truly terrifying 

 

My take on the storyteller analogy was that its in reference to Brandon himself, and how he has always said not to expect big crossovers with main characters but the recent Odium development and that Thaidakar reveal leave me thinking otherwise 

I don't think there is a reason to believe taravagian could impact Hoids memories more then rayse could of. Therefore it doesn't matter if it was rayse or taravagian. Wit must of know his memories were going to get messed with. The terror could be from him realising it wasn't rayse.

[Eingradd]

I do think this was a "loss" for Wit, in the sense that TOdium successfully manipulated him. I would cite what others have already cited; his feeling fear, and his worry about his Breaths. We know he lost these Breaths too, since his perfect pitch is gone. And while he seems worried before, during, and after the second encounter (the re-do for TOdium), he still seems confidant at the end because he still thinks he's dealing with Rayse. It doesn't make sense, if we assume he was the winner in this exchange, that he thinks it went exactly as he thought it would, since he has no way of knowing Rayse was killed and the Shard taken by someone else. That's when his terror sets in, because he isn't prepared to fight against someone who isn't Rayse holding the Shard, and he is in no way prepared to deal with someone like Taravangian holding it.

 

I know Wit has a lot of resources and has lived a long time, but it has been less than a week since the Shard was taken, and unless Wit was literally there watching it happen while hiding from Odium, then somehow teleported to Kholinar, all the while preparing false Breaths specifically meant to trick the new holder of Odium, I have trouble thinking of a way this could be a win.

[Forest Nymphomaniac]

Wild thought that keeps invading my mind:

I've already entertained the possibility in another thread of using unsealed copperminds to store memories, but that had the issue of not being able to recall the memories unless you tapped the metalmind. However, this could actually explain the terror Wit felt. If we are going to chase this likely far-fetched dream that Hoid came out on top of this interaction, the terror he felt is the biggest red flag.

 

Unless he had stored important memories, including his true plan for this interaction, in an unsealed metal mind. Perhaps, one of the coins he was playing with while hinting at the storyteller/audience deception monologue.

[IndigoAjah]

On 24/11/2020 at 6:16 PM, Dracnor said:

Why not. That would be reassuring (and kind of disappointing since it would undo the catastrophic apparent issue of the epilogue).

I just have one question : what then of the true terror that Wit felt ? We are getting his PoV so that's not a lie, is it ? Would he be that terrified if he knew it could happen ?

I think, even if you knew it could happen and were playing him, the actual realization and then sensation that someone was messing with your memories would be terrifying. Not something you can emotionally prepare for

[Forest Nymphomaniac]

23 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

I think, even if you knew it could happen and were playing him, the actual realization and then sensation that someone was messing with your memories would be terrifying. Not something you can emotionally prepare for

That's a good point. I can prepare my emotions as much as I want to jump off of a plane without a parachute, i'm still going to be pants-shittingly terrified, no matter how much i expect it to happen.

[Guest Parallax]

On 11/24/2020 at 0:11 PM, mawaschwa said:

However, after a couple days to ruminate and giving the epilogue a reread, I'm beginning to come around more to the idea that Wit might have actually outmaneuvered Odium in the end.

Hoid's popularity as a character is clouding people's judgement. He clearly got outplayed, Hoid thinks he has everything under control meanwhile Odium has a new vessel he doesn't know anything about. 

 

On 11/24/2020 at 7:41 PM, Shuffel said:

I don't think there is a reason to believe taravagian could impact Hoids memories more then rayse could of. Therefore it doesn't matter if it was rayse or taravagian. Wit must of know his memories were going to get messed with. The terror could be from him realising it wasn't rayse.

Taravangian manipulated Hoid's memories to make sure Hoid is not suspicious about him. Since Rayse wouldn't have asked any unexpected questions there would be no need for this. 

[AlejandroTeodoro]

I always considered Hoid like the Avatar of Sanderson in the novels, I doubt that he got overtricked or overwitted by Odium.

There is lot of ways that could explain him being terrified, he could have put his real memories in Investiture in Urithuru, and then he went to Kholinar to “talk” with Odium. 
Odium modified his memories and looked st them so he was really scared but it was a trick from the beginning.

We will see in the next books, but Hoid is a Kind of Tom Bombadil, I really doubt he is a normal character that can be overtricked. And the previous conversation with his spren is the way that Sanderson showed it

[18th Shard]

I think Wit went into it planning to con Rayse. He went into it knowing he would be attacked however Odium could. But the terror came when he realized it was Taravangian, not Rayse, he was dealing with. Rayse was a known figure whose intent had pushed him for millenia. Realizing Odium has a new vessel is absolutely terrifying, even if Hoid got what he wanted from the interaction. 

[DiePie]

I feel like people are forgetting that  (besides for whoever Todd has revealed it too) there is a group of people that know that the vessel changed: Sja-Anat and their faction (Renairin and everyone else with a corrupted spren is probably in this group). It’s impossible to know whether or not Hoid is in contact with them but it is a possibility.

There’s also the fact that Todd would influence the Cosmere in a way that is distinct from Rayse, and so someone who knows how Rayse behaves may be able to deduce that something’s wrong (remember that there was probably a reason for Hoid to confront Odium)

though we also know via WoB that Hoid has a way of knowing “where he has to be” (probably by burning chromium), and so may have been lead there by that, for the purpose of finding out that Odium has a change in management.

[fakelogic]

Huge fan of the Hoid character like many of us are, but as someone said above I think our bias for our boy may be showing here. TOdium got the jump on him. Though I prefer to think Hoid just got unlucky in this instance rather than beat.

Besides the fact a key underlying Sanderson theme is fallibility of literally everyone (including gods and Hoid with the pen thing earlier in the novel), a few meta questions I asked myself to confirm this was a “loss”:

 -Narratively, does it strengthen the threat of the new Odium by making him fooled by Hoid the very next scene after he becomes the vessel? Seems silly to kneecap him so early.

-What does Hoid clearly gain by fooling TOdium like this? Without the epilogue, we would’ve already assumed Hoid is steps ahead of him. Writing a whole scene that shows the opposite seems like a stretch to just re-emphasize Hoid’s competence. I trust Brandon not to be that manipulative in his plotting.

-Finally, does Brandon likely think we want to read more about Hoid always mysteriously being steps ahead or finding out how he reacts to obstacles? Especially as the stakes go up and the climax gets closer.

[Highline]

I think that even if he was afraid it wasn’t because he was surprised as much as it is scared to see if the audience (Odium) would play into the game Hoid was playing, wouldn’t you be afraid if things went wrong and you ended up showing your hand instead of the bluff you had set out? 

 

On 11/26/2020 at 3:53 PM, DiePie said:

I feel like people are forgetting that  (besides for whoever Todd has revealed it too) there is a group of people that know that the vessel changed: Sja-Anat and their faction (Renairin and everyone else with a corrupted spren is probably in this group). It’s impossible to know whether or not Hoid is in contact with them but it is a possibility.

There’s also the fact that Todd would influence the Cosmere in a way that is distinct from Rayse, and so someone who knows how Rayse behaves may be able to deduce that something’s wrong (remember that there was probably a reason for Hoid to confront Odium)

though we also know via WoB that Hoid has a way of knowing “where he has to be” (probably by burning chromium), and so may have been lead there by that, for the purpose of finding out that Odium has a change in management.

I would think Hoid has some Connection to the original vessels/shards and may have had some inkling as to what had occurred with the change in management of the Shard. 

[ftl]

Pretty sure the scene is deliberately written to be ambiguous as to who "really" got the upper hand. You can make both cases pretty convincingly.

We'll find out by the end of book 10 for sure, and hopefully by the end of book 5!