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Kaladin and Skaa


Kvothe the Bloodless

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You know how Kaladin in SA hates how the darkeyes are treated and absolutely loathes the lighteyes? Well, I was just thinking that compared to the skaa on Scadrial, the darkeyes have it real good. I would be curious to see what Kaladin thought about the skaa compared to the darkeyes' situation, and I also wonder how a conversation between Kaladin and Kelsier would go, seeing as they both hate seeing oppresion. 

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I found a WOB that kind of relates to this as far as a conversation between Kaladin and Kelsier.

Quote

Dane Brown

Hypothetically, if Kelsier were to meet Kaladin, what would he say?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably "don't be so hard on yourself, kid." That would probably be what Kelsier says. He would do some version of "I've been there, don't be so hard on yourself. You can't fix it all." That's what my gut says.

Kelsier would really like Kaladin. He's the sort of person that Kelsier just... Kelsier loves to see and recognize the people who are just innately good and trying to do good. He's drawn to that because it's not something that is natural to him, if that makes any sense. He can recognize it, though. And it's one of those things that he kind of wants to preserve in the world. And he would really like Kaladin.

Adam Horne

Would Kaladin like Kelsier?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably not. But Kelsier would probably be just fine with that.

YouTube Livestream 10 (June 18, 2020)

Probably if Kaladin ended up on Scadrial, he'd try to make things better.  It might get him killed, depending on what exactly he tried to do, but he'd try.

I'd say more but I'm on a time limit.

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On 24.11.2020 at 6:13 PM, Blood Of My Fathers said:

You know how Kaladin in SA hates how the darkeyes are treated and absolutely loathes the lighteyes?

A lighteye is just another kind of noble. They are a bit better because it is easier to see whom to kill. Well, maybe not Teners, but the rest needs to go.

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1 hour ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

I don’t think anything good ever comes from “this oppressed population has it better than this other oppressed population.” Things are rust for both skaa and dark eyes, sometimes in similar ways, sometimes in different

The nahn and dahn system is a classic caste system where even the lowest slaves receive some wages. The entire skaa population is enslaved. Darkeyes absolutely have it far better then skaa.

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OK but they're representations of different eras in time. Mistborn, with the european architecture, heavy fog, paved streets and general feel, is like a gothic dystopia- don't forget it's technically a postpocalyptic story, with Alendi being killed by the Lord Ruler. so the class dynamic there is one of a Postapocalyptic dystopia of enslavment with a Touch of goth (people being taken in the mists) and the class-rebels are partially tied to sanderson's love of Les Miserables. The nobels there are nobles in the Old-timey (regency?) England kind of way.

Roshar, however, is a feudalistic-age fantasy. The "nobles" are Nobles in the full medival way of the word, with suporting the aries of the nobles about them in exchange for power over land, with supporting monastries in exchange for divine support, and with a lot of toher aspects of Feudal politics an culture- down right to the Fancy Noble Warriors dueling instead of Jousting. So obviously, the class tension there comes not from "A Dark Lord Enslaved The World And Barely Any Of Us Even Know It Can Be Different", but form normal frictions of the unfair life under Feudalism. 

The "having it better" is relative to genre- OF COURSE being opressed by nobles is better than living under a post apocalyptic dark god, but being branded a slave for winning a shard and sent to be used as canon fodder for a pay that is basically symbolic- you will never ever really gather the amount to free yourself- when youare like, basically 17, is aa pretty [redacted] life to have in a non-dystopic world.

If your rights get violated, even in a seemingly Medium-or-less way, a non life-or-death subject- it's not much compared to the conditions of those living in communist china or North Korea right now, but you're still pissed and you're still going to be annoyed at your neighbour who breaks federal law and gets away scot free cuz he's rich. It's all relative.

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On 11/27/2020 at 4:37 PM, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Bridgemen are absolutely better off then skaa.

:blink:
The skaa in Luthadel are almost equivalent to low ranked lighteyes! They can own businesses, conduct trade, be craftsmen. Even the plantation skaa were only regular slaves. 
Bridgemen are explicitly described as lower than regular slaves. Only the worst slave gets sent to the bridge crews. The rate of death is exponentially higher. 

This is obviously a somewhat pointless discussion, as they were both treated pretty horribly. Also it should be noted that comparing their suffering like this is only okay because they are completely fictional groups of people, if this was a discussion about irl groups of oppressed people it would be completely inappropriate.

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On 11/24/2020 at 0:13 PM, Blood Of My Fathers said:

You know how Kaladin in SA hates how the darkeyes are treated and absolutely loathes the lighteyes? Well, I was just thinking that compared to the skaa on Scadrial, the darkeyes have it real good.

That's technically true, but the treatment of darkeyes is still unjust and wrong, and any level of oppression is bad, even if it's comparatively not as bad as other groups.

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On 11/27/2020 at 6:37 PM, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Bridgemen are absolutely better off then skaa.

Yes but while all of Sadeas' bridgemen were darkeyes, that's not at all the same as saying all darkeyes were as badly off of bridgemen. And remember, running bridge crews the way that Sadeas did was something only Sadeas did. Because he was a monster that way with casual disregard for human life, you know?

No doubt in my mind, being a darkeyes in Alethkar, even of low nahn, was overall better than being skaa in the Final Empire. There were exceptional skaa craftsmen in Luthadel, equivalent to first and second nahn artisans and skilled professionals like Lirin, who warranted better treatment because of the rarity and utility of their skills; more curious is that there were not a similar group to the Alethi "tenners", skilled craftsman nobles of low or fallen houses or families who have to work for a living. (Of course, there is not an easily spotted differentiator between noble and skaa in the FE the way the lighteyes and darkeyes have.)

What we don't see more of is what the life of a skaa was like further away from Luthadel, at least the ones in the cities (I get the feeling that plantation skaa had it pretty rough no matter what Dominance). It was said that in the further areas of the FE the skaa were able to live much closer to normal lives.

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On 11/29/2020 at 0:09 AM, Ookla the Disproportionate said:

The skaa in Luthadel are almost equivalent to low ranked lighteyes! They can own businesses, conduct trade, be craftsmen. 

Very few skaa have it anywhere near that good.

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Yes but while all of Sadeas' bridgemen were darkeyes, that's not at all the same as saying all darkeyes were as badly off of bridgemen. And remember, running bridge crews the way that Sadeas did was something only Sadeas did. Because he was a monster that way with casual disregard for human life, you know?

And that's exactly my point. Bridgemen are the worst off darkeyes we've seen by a long way and they are still much better off than the average Skaa. 

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2 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Very few skaa have it anywhere near that good.

And that's exactly my point. Bridgemen are the worst off darkeyes we've seen by a long way and they are still much better off than the average Skaa. 

Eh, I'd say the "average skaa" we saw was still better off than a bridgeman.

Being a Sadeas bridgeman was more like being a skaa of the Final Empire... Who'd been sent to the Pits of Hathsin. You know you're going to die, and die brutally; it's only a question of when and how. "The waiting is all."

Meanwhile, the silent competition to stay alive just a little bit longer is predicated on an "every man for himself" race against your fellow condemned that erodes compassion and humanity.

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I also think darkeye in general are better off than skaa. If I were to compare Bridgemen, I would compare them to the Pits of Hathsin prisoners and not to the general skaa population, since both groups represent a small population that is treated worse due to the whims and for the benefit of one ruler.

Edited by peppintook
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On 11/30/2020 at 3:04 PM, robardin said:

Eh, I'd say the "average skaa" we saw was still better off than a bridgeman.

Being a Sadeas bridgeman was more like being a skaa of the Final Empire... Who'd been sent to the Pits of Hathsin. You know you're going to die, and die brutally; it's only a question of when and how. "The waiting is all."

Meanwhile, the silent competition to stay alive just a little bit longer is predicated on an "every man for himself" race against your fellow condemned that erodes compassion and humanity.

Yeah, both death sentences are similar.

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On 11/27/2020 at 4:37 PM, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Bridgemen are absolutely better off then skaa.

:blink:

When was the last time you read WoK?

because they had it orders of magnitude worse than skaa did.

On 11/30/2020 at 11:43 AM, robardin said:

more curious is that there were not a similar group to the Alethi "tenners", skilled craftsman nobles of low or fallen houses or families who have to work for a living. 

There where, people like Felt and others had to work for a living.

 

Edit: 2,666 that's a nice post count.

Edited by Ookla The Frustrated
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11 hours ago, Ookla The Frustrated said:

There where, people like Felt and others had to work for a living.

Edit: that's a nice post count.

That's right, Felt was a son of a "minor nobleman". Still, his "working for a living" wasn't working with his hands, as a craftsman or a laborer, but as a spy and a scout.

I wonder about the dressmaker that Vin goes to see about her ball gown after she's "Lady Vin", where the tailor comments that he was used to making hidden pockets and E-Z-Tear seams for Allomancers and Mistborn. And of course, how did Marsh, ostensibly raised by a posing-as-noble mother with Kelsier as secret half-skaa (though we have conflicting accounts/information on this from Kelsier in TFE, Marsh, and Ghost Kelsier in Secret History), learn whatever trade it was that allowed him to run a shop (I don't remember what kind of shop - Clubs was the "skaa carpenter of some skill" whose shop was also a Smokehouse, what was Marsh)?

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Darkeyes are a disenfranchised caste of people, with some being made slaves as punishment for various offenses. The skaa all start off as slaves.

There's also the fact that the Lord Ruler was a true absolute dictator; the law was whatever he wanted it to be, which allowed unlimited scope for cruelty. On Roshar, none of the leaders (except maybe Ishar) have the same ability to quash all opposition with their own, personal power. So to retain their authority, they have to avoid becoming too oppressive, otherwise they'll turn the people they need against them (as we saw with Kholinar under Aesudan).

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just to note: as a woman, the Skaa have it way worse than Darkeyes. There may be some argument for men; there is NO argument for women. Which means the Skaa as a population, including both sexes, were worse off than the worst Darkeyes. 

At least on Roshar, being murdered for being raped by the rapist is not considered a holy act.

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