Gloomspren

Kaladin’s yellowish-red eyes...

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Sorry if this has been mentioned before, but i couldn’t find a thread on it. Chapter 106 kaladin breaks as a result of teft’s death and... then kills the pursuer horrifically. But a few things interest me here. Venli says:

Quote

His eyes were flowing like a Radiant’s, his face a mask of pain and anguish, but the eyes... she swore the light had a yellowish-red cast to it. Like... like...

Like what Venli??? It doesn’t sound like void light?? But perhaps it is something about odium?? Or just a general corruption? But with all the light theory in this book it seems to not fit any categories.

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Kaladin didn’t attack. Instead he reacted down and infused the ground, but with power that didn’t glow as strong as she thought it should.

Kaladin also says he only has a vague memory of killing the pursuer and can’t think straight, and then proceeds to jump off the tower.
 

So moash earlier had said that kaladin could either embrace odium’s emotion taking powers or could kill himself, and he did... both? Not sure if this whole thing is a consequence of him getting too far from the oaths (hence his reduced lashing ability), and if all radiants when they’re about to give up get a yellowish red cast to their glow but... I’m interested to hear other’s thoughts on this. 
 

what the heck does yellowish-red mean??

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To me yellowish-red sounds like corrupted Odium investiture. Just like Odium can corrupt Honor's investiture, so should the reverse be possible. I think Kaladin co-opted Odium's investiture and tinged it with Honorable intent. It wasn't completely red, as there was still a lot of pure Odium in there.

Golden investiture is also interestingly how Odium's investiture would look if native to Roshar. As mentioned in another post, I think Odium is going native (unintentionally).

Edited by Golstar
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Interesting. Honor's power shows blue in the eyes. Odium's power seems to be yellow, unless it's being used to corrupt something. Corrupted Investiture appears red.

Sja Anat corrupts Honor-Cultivation spren and they end up red. Fused are corrupted Singers, who are probably naturally closer to Honor-Cultivations. So red eyes.

With what we're learning about Shard-light, this fits in pretty well. A pure Shard-light (Stormlight being the pure free Investiture of Honor, for example) will appear as the pure color of that Shard. Odium's is yellow. Light that is being smothered/corrupted by the Light of another Shard creates a red color. Black "light" (like the smoke from Nightblood) must be "unattached" Investiture (no Shard's Intent)

Back to Kaladin: if he is giving up on his Oaths slowly, he leaves an opening for Odium to insert himself. His internal battle becomes between his Oaths and letting go completely (Moash-style). This battle is seen in the yellow (Odium Light) and red (Odium corrupting the Honor Light that's fighting).

This would be great to look out for in other characters and situations in the future.

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3 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

 Light that is being smothered/corrupted by the Light of another Shard creates a red color. Black "light" (like the smoke from Nightblood) must be "unattached" Investiture (no Shard's Intent)

I'm not sure if I'm misremembering and I doubt it would relate to Nightblood, but I'm pretty sure black "light" belongs to Ruin (I'm recalling the black smoke when he escaped from the Well)

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A quick look says that black smoke is simply corrupted Investiture's Physical manifestation. The Well had black smoke because it was Preservation's Perpendicularity used as Ruin's prison for several millennia. Ruin managed to corrupt some of that power over time.

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9 minutes ago, Ramona Tehradin said:

But there are a whole lot of things which make little sense about Kaladin

Scadrial has three magic systems. We didn't learn about all of these until way into the Mistborn books. Some of the more exotic combinations weren't revealed until Era 2. Could there be magic system(s) on Roshar that we don't even know about yet?

1. The whole corruption deal seems different than Surgebinding and Voidbinding. It doesn't involve surges, but instead does strange things to investiture. That some who use it dislike the term corruption indicates there is something deeper.

2. Ars Arcanum says Voidbinding is cousin to Old Magic. That seems a bit weird to me when all we know about Old Magic is that the Boons/Curses of Nightwatcher are related to Old Magic. 

3. Stormlight-powered Surgebinding seems very similar to Allomancy - consuming investiture to do magic. Could there be a Ferruchemy and/or Hemalurgy facsimile? 

4. Perhaps an unknown magic system might involve gaining power through the perception of others? A sort of Living Legend effect, where the idea of Kaladin Stormblessed becomes real. He gains the ability to do what people think he can do. Did the "Kaladin cult" empower him somehow?

5. A champion effect? Is Lift 'Lifeblessed' and Vyre (or El) 'Voidblessed'. Is there a particular magic on Roshar which allows blessing of individuals in a fashion unrelated to Surgebinding and Nahel Bonds (although a blessed might be very likely to attract one).

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Sometimes Odium is gold, sometimes he's violet, sometimes he's red.  Because why not.

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1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Sometimes Odium is gold, sometimes he's violet, sometimes he's red.  Because why not.

He wants to look gold for the positive perceptive connotations, corrupting investiture makes red, and Chimeric violet (dark but also saturated violet) is his "true" color. The void that sucks in emotion.

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1 hour ago, Golstar said:

4. Perhaps an unknown magic system might involve gaining power through the perception of others? A sort of Living Legend effect, where the idea of Kaladin Stormblessed becomes real. He gains the ability to do what people think he can do. Did the "Kaladin cult" empower him somehow?

 

Interesting. I haven't heard this theory before. It does make sense with how cognitive stuff works in the cosmere. I wonder if this would apply to the Blackthorn too

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34 minutes ago, Stormtide_Leviathan said:

Interesting. I haven't heard this theory before. It does make sense with how cognitive stuff works in the cosmere. I wonder if this would apply to the Blackthorn too

Well, there certainly is a lot of talk about how he (especially pre-pruning) was a larger than life presence. I think Eshonai describes him as almost different species than other humans or "how a human in warform would look" (from memory).

But Kaladin especially seems to have an almost supernatural effect on those around him. Back with Bridge Four he would deflect arrows meant for others subconsciously - but perhaps his bond with his "people" goes further than that? Even Elhokar seems mesmerized by him, and almost immediately wants him as a bodyguard. Kaladin is a brooding, morose man with severe depression and anxiety issues. While great leaders with troublesome minds are not unheard of - he seems to project a different persona than his own. He even thinks about it relatively often - that he feels a disconnect from he projects and his actual self. I realize that his depression and anxiety play a part in this - but I actually think he is partially right.

I almost expect him to just come back if he dies, similar to the fused or the heralds. Incidentally the fused seem to have a similar effect on the singers, and the Pursuer seems pretty focused on his reputation. Maybe his reputation is what gives him his powers? El had his titles stripped as punishment. The heralds (except Ishar) get very upset when people worship them and give them titles. Ishar being venerated as the Almighty might be what allows him to surgebind without having an Honorblade or a spren. I could be reaching, but titles/reputation/perception having power would seem to fit Odium and Honor both, and might be a magic system created by their interactions. 

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8 hours ago, Golstar said:

3. Stormlight-powered Surgebinding seems very similar to Allomancy - consuming investiture to do magic. Could there be a Ferruchemy and/or Hemalurgy facsimile? 

Somehow Navani’s bond with the Sibling generates Towerlight. It’s end-positive.

I’d say Stormlight surgebinding is more like Feruchemy or Hemalurgy. It’s at best end-neutral. You take in Stormlight and use it for effect. You might even describe it as end-negative because Surgebinders aren’t very efficient at holding in Stormlight whereas the Fused are very efficient at holding in Voidlight.

On the other hand, in Allomancy, the metals aren’t the source of Invenstiture, just a focus. The tower fabrial is the focus that Navani and the Sibling use to create and direct Towerlight.

Lift is a weird case, but it seems to be the closest thing we see to Allomancy on Roshar considering she metabolizes food to generate Lifelight to power Surgebinding kind of like burning metals.

I think there are issues with drawing direct parallels but to me it seems more like Towerlight and Lifelight ~ Allomancy, Stormlight ~ Hemalurgy, Voidlight ~ Feruchemy.

This is only when they are powering Surgebinding (unless you count the Towerlight stuff as fabrial Magic separate from surgebinding). I’m not sure where Warlight and the theoretical Cultivation/Odium Light or TripleLight would land. And I don’t know how this would change for Voidbinding or Old Magic.

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8 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

He wants to look gold for the positive perceptive connotations, corrupting investiture makes red, and Chimeric violet (dark but also saturated violet) is his "true" color. The void that sucks in emotion.

I feel like Odium needs a couple more colors attributed to him, red yellow and purple is only half of the color wheel after all.  Like maybe if his power crosses with Cultivation it forms a nice shade of teal.  Or if it blends with Harmony's investiture it becomes poop brown like when you combine all the crayons together.  Maybe if you combine Odiumlight with itself it forms a rainbow.  That way we could attribute every possible color in some way to his theoretical influence.

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Sja-anat had left Taravangian with a few altered Spren. So where did she go? Urithiru? She had an interest in the Singers escaping and Odium failing. How do the eyes of a Knight Radiant forming a temporary bond with Sja-anat look like?

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On 11/24/2020 at 11:38 PM, Golstar said:

Scadrial has three magic systems. We didn't learn about all of these until way into the Mistborn books. Some of the more exotic combinations weren't revealed until Era 2. Could there be magic system(s) on Roshar that we don't even know about yet?

1. The whole corruption deal seems different than Surgebinding and Voidbinding. It doesn't involve surges, but instead does strange things to investiture. That some who use it dislike the term corruption indicates there is something deeper.

2. Ars Arcanum says Voidbinding is cousin to Old Magic. That seems a bit weird to me when all we know about Old Magic is that the Boons/Curses of Nightwatcher are related to Old Magic. 

3. Stormlight-powered Surgebinding seems very similar to Allomancy - consuming investiture to do magic. Could there be a Ferruchemy and/or Hemalurgy facsimile? 

4. Perhaps an unknown magic system might involve gaining power through the perception of others? A sort of Living Legend effect, where the idea of Kaladin Stormblessed becomes real. He gains the ability to do what people think he can do. Did the "Kaladin cult" empower him somehow?

5. A champion effect? Is Lift 'Lifeblessed' and Vyre (or El) 'Voidblessed'. Is there a particular magic on Roshar which allows blessing of individuals in a fashion unrelated to Surgebinding and Nahel Bonds (although a blessed might be very likely to attract one).

Vyre no more..... Went blind.

El. 

And I am Terrified!

Edited by Samrat
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I don't know if there's consensus on what El's title was, but my first thought was Stormblessed and I'm wondering, if we're looking into titles creating their own power of a sort, if Kal has a title that was formerly associated with a Fused, what does that mean for where he is able to draw power from? 

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On 11/24/2020 at 9:26 PM, Golstar said:

Golden investiture is also interestingly how Odium's investiture would look if native to Roshar.

Source? 

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31 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Source? 

I assume this is what they're thinking of. Calls Odium's real color gold.

Quote

Questioner

So, we know in Mistborn there is this running... you can say, motif about Ruin being associated with the color black and Preservation with the color white, we see a lot of very subtle and a lot of very unsubtle...

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, yes.

Questioner

Is such a motif present in any other books? I think I see it in Stormlight.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, in Stormlight you can see it. So, Ruin is a red-gold... not Ruin, Odium. Odium is a red-gold. Honor is a blue-white and Cultivation is green, obviously. So, those motifs stay, when you... when you see a red or a gold, it's a reddish gold sort of thing, either of those colors, it's going to be Odium.

Questioner

Even when we something we might suspect to be outside influence in other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

Not necessarily, because red can also mean corrupted Investiture in the Cosmere. So, I would call Odium's real color gold, because you're going to see red when Odium is corrupting other things, so...

Questioner

It's not necessarily on Roshar.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not necessarily Odium. So, you're asking for the invading force on Mistborn, it doesn't necessarily mean Odium because it's red. So red just kind of means corruption. I've talked about that before, so. Not necessarily, not definitive, yeah.

Footnote: When Sanderson said "you're asking about the invading force on Mistborn", the questioner made a guilty "caught red-handed" shrug.
ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

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I feel like the book was trying to set up an "oh no, Kaladin is angry and he's going to become Odium's champion" moment, but that's ridiculous.  Maybe it was making the point that Rayse was deluded enough to think he could tempt Kaladin into becoming his champion?  

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I think it 

On 11/24/2020 at 3:38 PM, Golstar said:

Well, there certainly is a lot of talk about how he (especially pre-pruning) was a larger than life presence. I think Eshonai describes him as almost different species than other humans or "how a human in warform would look" (from memory).

But Kaladin especially seems to have an almost supernatural effect on those around him. Back with Bridge Four he would deflect arrows meant for others subconsciously - but perhaps his bond with his "people" goes further than that? Even Elhokar seems mesmerized by him, and almost immediately wants him as a bodyguard. Kaladin is a brooding, morose man with severe depression and anxiety issues. While great leaders with troublesome minds are not unheard of - he seems to project a different persona than his own. He even thinks about it relatively often - that he feels a disconnect from he projects and his actual self. I realize that his depression and anxiety play a part in this - but I actually think he is partially right.

I almost expect him to just come back if he dies, similar to the fused or the heralds. Incidentally the fused seem to have a similar effect on the singers, and the Pursuer seems pretty focused on his reputation. Maybe his reputation is what gives him his powers? El had his titles stripped as punishment. The heralds (except Ishar) get very upset when people worship them and give them titles. Ishar being venerated as the Almighty might be what allows him to surgebind without having an Honorblade or a spren. I could be reaching, but titles/reputation/perception having power would seem to fit Odium and Honor both, and might be a magic system created by their interactions. 

I like this explanation. It fits really well with all the strange stuff about Kaladin. The only part that doesn't seem to fit with this is how he used super speed to kill Helaran, because that was before people knew him. 

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7 hours ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

I assume this is what they're thinking of. Calls Odium's real color gold.

[WoB]

Probably, yeah. Not quite the same thing as they said though. There were a few newer WoBs recently so I tried to find something like this on the Arcanum and Reddit but didn't find anything.

Odium is a part of Roshar, Voidlight is still violet, not gold

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On 11/24/2020 at 3:38 PM, Golstar said:

Well, there certainly is a lot of talk about how he (especially pre-pruning) was a larger than life presence. I think Eshonai describes him as almost different species than other humans or "how a human in warform would look" (from memory).

But Kaladin especially seems to have an almost supernatural effect on those around him. Back with Bridge Four he would deflect arrows meant for others subconsciously - but perhaps his bond with his "people" goes further than that? Even Elhokar seems mesmerized by him, and almost immediately wants him as a bodyguard. Kaladin is a brooding, morose man with severe depression and anxiety issues. While great leaders with troublesome minds are not unheard of - he seems to project a different persona than his own. He even thinks about it relatively often - that he feels a disconnect from he projects and his actual self. I realize that his depression and anxiety play a part in this - but I actually think he is partially right.

I almost expect him to just come back if he dies, similar to the fused or the heralds. Incidentally the fused seem to have a similar effect on the singers, and the Pursuer seems pretty focused on his reputation. Maybe his reputation is what gives him his powers? El had his titles stripped as punishment. The heralds (except Ishar) get very upset when people worship them and give them titles. Ishar being venerated as the Almighty might be what allows him to surgebind without having an Honorblade or a spren. I could be reaching, but titles/reputation/perception having power would seem to fit Odium and Honor both, and might be a magic system created by their interactions. 

Kaladin's reputation comes from his actions, and his awesomeness and all that. I doubt that he gains any powers from people's opinions of him, that just seems like it would be out of the blue. Ishar has his Honorblade, which is why he can surgebind. The Defeated One focused on his reputation because he was insane. The Fused get their powers from Odium.

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On 25/11/2020 at 4:14 AM, duladen said:

Somehow Navani’s bond with the Sibling generates Towerlight. It’s end-positive.

I’d say Stormlight surgebinding is more like Feruchemy or Hemalurgy. It’s at best end-neutral. You take in Stormlight and use it for effect. You might even describe it as end-negative because Surgebinders aren’t very efficient at holding in Stormlight whereas the Fused are very efficient at holding in Voidlight.

On the other hand, in Allomancy, the metals aren’t the source of Invenstiture, just a focus. The tower fabrial is the focus that Navani and the Sibling use to create and direct Towerlight.

Honor is end-positive, because the powers are entirely external, just like Allomancy.

I have no idea about Odium, but he doesn't seem like end-negative or neutral. Fused and regals are definitely end-positive. 

Cultivation is surprisingly the closest to being end-neutral (possibly fully) even though she has the most end-positive Intent we know of.

End-neutral is, when the power you get, is the same, as the power lost. Feruchemy revolves about storing your attributes for later. 

Old magic revolves around giving up something and getting something else. Taravangian has super smart days and super dumb days(had?). Dalinar lost his memories, to get them back later. Lift burns her own energy reserves, to get Investiture (does she metabolise the food? Sounds like endless sitting on toilets to me....).

The Nahel bond is from Honor. This binds two entities together, enhancing both of them in the process. This is also the focus of power for Radiants. 

Stormlight functions the same way as metals do on Scadrial. It doesn't do anything special by itself, but give it to Radiant who can burn this Investiture to gain abilities just like Mistborn do when burning Metals. That burnt Stormlight also isn't lost forever (what happens to burnt metals? Are they metabolised?). It returns back into spiritual realm, from where it can return into physical trough Perpendicularity. Stormlight can also heal and sustain, which is entirely end-positive.

Your point about about Radiants being end-negative is plainly wrong. They might be inefficient in holding Stormlight, but that doesn't mean that the power is lost. If you cup your hands and try to hold water, you will have leaks. The water that leaks, doesn't just disappear into nothing. It will eventually evaporate to vapor, which will get absorbed back into the atmosphere.

The only truly end-negative thing on Roshar we know of is Nightblood. 

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11 hours ago, Honorless said:

Odium is a part of Roshar, Voidlight is still violet, not gold

Odium seems to have multiple colors associated with him:

Gold: Investiture leaking from Rayse, his god-metal (Raysium daggers are described as golden), several visions of Odium
Red: Corrupted/modified spren, various Fused powers
Violet/Stygian: Voidlight, various Fused powers

My personal interpretation is that Shards don't necessarily have a single color, but the investiture they manifest in the physical and cognitive realms are tinted in a unique way for each shard. We've seen on Scadrial that some Shards can even mimic the color of other shards and use this for deception. Probably not a normal occurence, but it shows that there is flexibility.

Red, according to the WoB, is corrupted and/or alien investiture. Un-natural so to speak. Violet and stygian is close enough to this that it can be hard to discern.

Odium is associated with voidlight which is certainly not gold, but there is no doubt that he manifests golden investiture on several occasions. My hypothesis is that the difference is in the manifestation. Voidlight is an almost elemental type of investiture - like stormlight. Mortals can manipulate it and it obeys certain laws and acts predictably. It's a very stable form of investiture. Alternatively, voidlight is special because it was originally manifested as another form of investiture, either stormlight or some kind of 'neutral' light. Then when Odium co-opts it, it becomes violet. Blue+red = violet?

As Odium's god-metal is golden, I suspect that color is associated with objects and people that have been permanently and non-ephemerally invested. Voidlight is consumed and diffuses back to the spiritual realm, like Stormlight. I think a Champion of Odium could very well have golden eyes but use stygian/violet voidlight as fuel.

Investiture can manifest as light, gas, liquid and metal. It's present in all matter, we're told on several occasions (Preservation in particular talks about how it's part of every single animate or inanimate object on Scadrial). Sentience is investiture, we're also told (and the reverse, investiture has an inherent drift towards attaining sentience). Do all these manifestations have to align in color? I don't think so. Shardblades are pure investiture, but can have all kinds of colors. Spren are highly invested - and they display a variety of tints. On Scadrial we have examples of blue investiture aligned with Ruin and/or Preservation - Allomancers see blue lines emanating from metal objects.

So it was wrong that I said Odium's investiture was golden. That's a too limiting description for what we've already been shown - but I think it fits as his primary color (especially due to the god-metal and leaking investiture).

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3 hours ago, Golstar said:

Alternatively, voidlight is special because it was originally manifested as another form of investiture, either stormlight or some kind of 'neutral' light. Then when Odium co-opts it, it becomes violet. Blue+red = violet?

Hmm... then what about Navani's experiments? Odium's Light produced a large band of violet when passing through a prism, and his Light rings with his own pure tone

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