My problem with The Three

[Friendshipspren]

Ok Veil is dead . She is According to me. You might argue that she never existed , that she was just a hallucination Shallan made up but really is she ?

I had come to see Veil as a distinct individual from Shallan and she was. Now that she commited suicide and is "Integrated " with shallan , does it mean we will see shallan act like Veil ? 

Be all badass and rough and not care about propriety, hit on Kaladin. 

Wasn't Veil different from shallan ? She couldn't draw , couldn't use Radiance properly. It was more like she was a squire to Shallan rather than a part of her . If she really did Identify as Shallan she should have been able to just as good as Shallan in her radiant abilities. 

Regardless she was a different person. I came to see her as a different person and was electrified at a positive depiction of multiple personality disorder .  ( something also seen in the Legion novellas ).

I was looking forward to see Veil have a relationship with someone other than Adolin and the interesting relationship dynamics it opened up. 

But fine I guess that's tangential. But seriously just removing her like that . Integrating her as if she never existed. 

Man this is the part I hate the most about RoW. What the helll ??? I mean veil was someone . She might not have been a fully independent personality but to just brush her off like this without any form of closure or reactions from the others she knew. 

Idk seems wrong to me. 

I liked Veil and i think she's as dead as Tien . Sure she will keep on influencing Shallan just like Tien will influence kaladin but I find the suggestion that she wasn't real and shouldn't need a funeral or be missed by Adolin or the others to be extremely odious. 

Even if she wasn't real , the others she knew and we , the readers, saw her as someone different and as such I find the underwhelming reaction to her death/disappearance by both cohorts to be really disturbing.  

[Honorless]

Maybe she didn't have a different body or soul, but it felt like she had a different mind. I definitely felt like she died there. Goodbye, Veil.

[TheTuninator]

I wasn't really bothered by it because everything Veil was exists within Shallan. Veil arose from Shallan trying to play a part. If you look at it from the Cosmere theological perspective, I'd imagine that Veil, Shallan, and Radiant are almost certainly all the same entity from a Spiritual perspective. There's no need to mourn because the thoughts and "cognition" which make up Veil were always there within Shallan and Shallan is still alive.

[agrabes]

Veil didn't exist, at least not as an independent person.  She was an imaginary personality living inside Shallan's head that was created by mental illness.  She wasn't different from Shallan - Shallan's mental illness only made her perceive it that way.  Shallan came to terms with this in RoW - that both Veil and Radiant were imaginary personalities created by Shallan to cope with the trauma she had experienced in her life.  You saw her gradually accepting this fact throughout the whole book.  For example, there were multiple scenes where "The Three" admit to themselves that Veil really did not have years of experience as a spy, nor did Radiant have years of experience as a soldier or ruler - all they really had was Shallan's own personal experience and training.  Veil was just the part of Shallan who had the attitude that she could be good at spying.  Shallan's not ready to let go of Radiant yet (maybe she never will), but she was ready to let go of Veil.  

So take comfort that Veil didn't die - she lives on as a better integrated part of Shallan herself.  With the events of RoW, Shallan now remembers what she knew during WoR - that she herself is fully capable of doing cloak and dagger missions and that she likes to experience the life of the common people every now and again.  If you liked Veil, you'll see Shallan exhibiting some of Veil's characteristics going forward.

I recognize you (OP) probably viewed all this very differently from me and I respect that, but I think we should only view this as a positive.  The Veil personality itself wanted this event to happen.  If anyone wants to debate about whether what happened was medically accurate relative to real life DID, I'll leave that one up to the experts.  Personally, I was very happy with how this plot arc turned out.

 

[Friendshipspren]

12 minutes ago, agrabes said:

 

So take comfort that Veil didn't die - she lives on as a better integrated part of Shallan herself.  

I recognize you (OP) probably viewed all this very differently from me and I respect that, but I think we should only view this as a positive.  The Veil personality itself wanted this event to happen.  If anyone wants to debate about whether what happened was medically accurate relative to real life DID, I'll leave that one up to the experts.  Personally, I was very happy with how this plot arc turned out.

 

Hmmm I don't know about the accuracy but veil felt real to me. I liked her more than I like Shallan.

And yes shallan will have her skills at cloak and dagger techniques but Veil had a completely different personality than Shallan. We won't see that again. 

But yes Veil herself wanted it. I hated that even more. 

Legion spoilers

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Spoiler

 I had come to see her as one of Stephen's alters who view themselves as different from Stephen and are horrified at the prospect of death or integration

 

Huh but thanks. Still I am very very unhappy about this. I would have liked it if the Three were left untouched and if Veil and Radiant were able to exercise more autonomy .  

Edited November 24, 2020 by Dreamspren
A little polishing

[+Bliev]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Maybe she didn't have a different body or soul, but it felt like she had a different mind. I definitely felt like she died there. Goodbye, Veil.

Yeah, I agree. I have definitely mourned her. I don't think we will see her again. Though I think we will, much like the Tien connections OP made, see Shallan referring to Veil a lot as she continues her journey in war against the Ghostbloods. 

I had originally been somewhat ambivalent, if not opposed, to the idea of re-integration being the goal, but I think this was handled really well. As Veil being the first alter who held the secrets the whole time, but who realized that--much like Pattern--their attempts to protect had done more harm than good.  Thought it was a fitting ending, though I will definitely miss her.

[IndigoAjah]

I think Veil is dead, and much like Tien or Maya, this is a sacrifice she chose to make for Shallan's sake, knowing she would die 

 

So we should celebrate her bravery 

 

[the_archduke]

 

3 hours ago, Dreamspren said:

 

I was looking forward to see Veil have a relationship with someone other than Adolin and the interesting relationship dynamics it opened up. 

 

Veil was never going to be having a relationship with someone other than Adolin.  The Three make that very clear in part 1.  There was an understanding.  

[IndigoAjah]

5 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

 

Veil was never going to be having a relationship with someone other than Adolin.  The Three make that very clear in part 1.  There was an understanding.  

Veil's obviously never broken that understanding, also in Part ...

[the_archduke]

Veil did the things Shallan really wanted to do but couldn't or shouldn't.  She does not want a relationship with anyone other than Adolin, therefore the understanding.

[GameOfGroans]

On 11/24/2020 at 6:49 PM, Dreamspren said:

Hmmm I don't know about the accuracy but veil felt real to me.

I'm curious, what exactly makes you think Veil is more "real" than the others? Do you feel that different types of characters and temperaments are less real?

[TiaOmi]

On 24/11/2020 at 6:49 PM, Dreamspren said:

Huh but thanks. Still I am very very unhappy about this. I would have liked it if the Three were left untouched and if Veil and Radiant were able to exercise more autonomy .  

Shallan is healing, she is coming to terms with the different sides of her personality and getting over the traumas of her childhood, and you would rather have her splintered and broken?

[jamskinner]

On 11/24/2020 at 9:37 AM, TheTuninator said:

I wasn't really bothered by it because everything Veil was exists within Shallan. Veil arose from Shallan trying to play a part. If you look at it from the Cosmere theological perspective, I'd imagine that Veil, Shallan, and Radiant are almost certainly all the same entity from a Spiritual perspective. There's no need to mourn because the thoughts and "cognition" which make up Veil were always there within Shallan and Shallan is still alive.

Maybe each one represents one of the 3 gods on roshar. 

[Friendshipspren]

On 11/26/2020 at 6:35 PM, GameOfGroans said:

I'm curious, what exactly makes you think Veil is more "real" than the others? Do you feel that different types of characters and temperaments are less real?

I never said she was more real. Only that she was real . Radiant is real too. Although I don't have a crush on her. 

 

 

On 11/26/2020 at 6:41 PM, TiaOmi said:

Shallan is healing, she is coming to terms with the different sides of her personality and getting over the traumas of her childhood, and you would rather have her splintered and broken?

She could do that without killing Veil and Radiant. Or having them commit voluntary suicide.

I see it as something positive. Not Splintering but diversifying. Not broken but expanding. 

I understand that they were originally created as tools to help her get over her childhood traumas but like they grew to be more.

It's one of the themes of the book. How created beings whether they be human children, Spren or Unmade all can grow into thier own person.

Sja-Anat :

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She rose up, taking the form of a woman of streaming black smoke with pure white eyes. Shadows and mist, Odium’s pure essence. If he were to know the deepest secret parts of her soul, he would not be surprised. For she had come from him. Unmade by his hand.
But as with all children, she had become more.

Kal and syl :

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Humans thinking about the wind, and honor, might have given you shape from formless power—but you’re your own person now.

As I’m my own person, though my parents gave me shape.

Heck even Harmony tries to break free of the two Shards making him up  :

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I find this difficult to do on an intrinsic level, as although I am neither Ruin nor Preservation, they make up me.

Shallan could have healed and the Three could still exist. In Harmony and Balance, stronger due to thier unity.

They might have been relegated more to the background .Or perhaps , though they share the same soul , could have ,  like Bavadin , done something new. 

She didn't need to be unmade at the least. And with so little mourning .

Edited December 14, 2020 by Friendshipspren
A little polishing

[GameOfGroans]

It's normal that we all have different "subpersonalities" but they are not so divided that we'd give them separate names and forms. I'd say Veil is now simply a side of Shallan that is more "blended" with her, and in fact, Shallan can use that side of her more freely and spontaneously, in better harmony with the rest of her, rather than having her totally take over every time. 

I for one am looking forward to see how a more whole and healthy Shallan functions in life (and what parts of her memory are still missing).

[BiochromaticStormlight]

I'm honestly confused on how veil died and shallan still has missing memories. I'll only be happy if the ghost bloods have them traped in breath infused scarf or something. Veils death just felt a bit cheap after shallan was like oh I still have more missing memories. Like I thought veil was the holder of her trama? If she is gone why does shallan still have missing memories? What if veil comes back from the dead cuz of shallans lost memories?

[Necessary Eagle]

20 hours ago, BiochromaticStormlight said:

I'm honestly confused on how veil died and shallan still has missing memories. I'll only be happy if the ghost bloods have them traped in breath infused scarf or something. Veils death just felt a bit cheap after shallan was like oh I still have more missing memories. Like I thought veil was the holder of her trama? If she is gone why does shallan still have missing memories? What if veil comes back from the dead cuz of shallans lost memories?

Which memories is she still missing? I didn't get the impression there were any left.

[Frustration]

Fully honest glad she's dead, I'm really happy with what happened to Shallan this book, I am now able to say that I feel, just about nothing towards her, huge improvemnet, I no longer groan when she has a chapter, good job Brandon

[Awesomness]

I don't think she was her own person really, and thus she didn't die.

I've been uncomfortable with the 3 since OB, and specially during ROW, because the more "entity" Veil and Radiant had, the less "Shallan" is (as Blended would say).

Shallan made up Veil and channeled on her all her knowledge and experience as a spy, because she thought she couldn't manage for herself. Veil is also someone with a social standing that allows her to behave more lax (something she wants but wouldn't allow herself to do as Shallan)

Afterwards, she did the same with Radiant: who is a good soldier and always knows what to do and how to behave in society as a radiant (Something Shallan struggles with because she feels awkward)

That left Shallan as incompetent at spying and at soldiering, repressed from having fun and unable to navigate social demands as a radiant.   Who is "Shallan"? someone who draws, lightweaves and does some verbal banter, but who is always letting the other 2 take control and even make decisions (they have an agreemen to vote on everything, and "Shallan" has only 1 vote! lets them have majority!) 

She makes herself less than she actually is. It saddens and frustrates me. ( and I actually see a parallel with Navani)

I am actually happy Veil disappeared.  I´m not saying I didn't like Veil or the complexity the 3 brought to the character. I liked the resolution of this arc and I expect Radiant to disappear to, leaving us with a whole-Shallan.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Awesomness
typo

[the winter system]

Just popping in to say that plural people -- umbrella term for people with "multiple personalities," though that's a very outdated -- exist IRL and can read what you write about us. Not every system wants to integrate, and plenty of us live full, complete lives, unintengrated. 

[Leuthie]

If written well, Shallan's personality going forward should be different than Shallan's was in the previous system. It should be a more integrated Shallan-Veil personality. Shallan's joke machine should be tempered a bit by Veil's stoicness. There should be some direct indication of an attraction to Kaladin and a bit less 'always cuddling' and "I feel completely whole now" with Adolin. Things that she did as Veil will be things she does as Shallan now.

So Veil is dead, but so is the previous version of Shallan. We now should get Shallan-Veil (or Veil-Shallan).

[Toaster Retribution]

6 hours ago, the winter system said:

Just popping in to say that plural people -- umbrella term for people with "multiple personalities," though that's a very outdated -- exist IRL and can read what you write about us. Not every system wants to integrate, and plenty of us live full, complete lives, unintengrated. 

It looks like Shallan, Veil and Radiant wants to integrate though. That is the preference of those characters. It seems like we (potentially) have another character in the Cosmere (Bavadin) who made a different choice. 

[the winter system]

18 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

It looks like Shallan, Veil and Radiant wants to integrate though. That is the preference of those characters. It seems like we (potentially) have another character in the Cosmere (Bavadin) who made a different choice. 

Characters are written by people who make decisions. When it comes to sensitive topics that are unrepresented, writers need to be careful in how they portray them. The Three aren't real people, and they do not make their own choices. - Nix

[Leuthie]

On 12/7/2020 at 7:44 AM, the winter system said:

Just popping in to say that plural people -- umbrella term for people with "multiple personalities," though that's a very outdated -- exist IRL and can read what you write about us. Not every system wants to integrate, and plenty of us live full, complete lives, unintengrated. 

 

1 hour ago, the winter system said:

Characters are written by people who make decisions. When it comes to sensitive topics that are unrepresented, writers need to be careful in how they portray them. The Three aren't real people, and they do not make their own choices. - Nix

Can you clarify why you made these two posts so I can feel more confident that I won't say something wrong in continuing this conversation?

Edited December 8, 2020 by Leuthie

[Toaster Retribution]

1 hour ago, the winter system said:

Characters are written by people who make decisions. When it comes to sensitive topics that are unrepresented, writers need to be careful in how they portray them. The Three aren't real people, and they do not make their own choices. - Nix

True. But some people do want to integrate, and if that is the story Brandon has chosen to tell with Shallan, Veil and Radiant, then that is fair, isn't it? It will represent those who do decide to integrate.