Who accepted Kaladin 4th ideal

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

When Kaladin said the words of his 4th ideal . A curious thing happened . A voice that wasn’t the Stormfather said these words are accepted. It’s a small thing but it has me thinking it’s foreshadowing something. I considered it could of been Dalinar.. maybe the sibling , idk it’s more to it ! Does anyone have any ideas

[Golstar]

Tanavast in the Cognitive/Spiritual Realm.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Golstar

[Myrovyn]

It is indeed a curious thing. This is the quote from the moment Kaladin's oath was accepted.

Quote

The storm rumbled, and he felt warmth surrounding him, Light infusing him. He heard Syl gasp, and a familiar voice, not the Stormfather's. 

THESE WORDS ARE ACCEPTED.

Venli's second oath was also accepted by someone other than the Stormfather.

Quote

Your Words, Venli, a distant femalen voice said in her mind, are now accepted.

At first I thought it was the Nightwatcher, but Kaladin hasn't met her, right? So her voice would be unfamiliar to him. 

The Sibling might also be a possibility since Kaladin has talked to them. Venli's oath would then have been accepted by another being, since the Sibling is neither female(n) nor male(n). Another problem with the Sibling being the one who accepted Kaladin's oath is that he has not been restored yet at moment Kaladin's oath is accepted (at least not in the text).

Both these options seem unsatisfying to me. 

[Myrovyn]

Just now, Golstar said:

Tanavast in the Cognitive/Spiritual Realm.

Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow merged with the Stormfather.

[Golstar]

3 minutes ago, Myrovyn said:

Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow merged with the Stormfather.

Are we sure this is correct? I suspect it's a ruse by Cultivation. The Stormfather merged with Honor's remainining power, but that doesn't mean a shadow of Tanavast, the human vessel couldn't exist (similar to Leras),

But even discounting these theories - the spiritual realm transcends time and space. The magic system powering the radiants was established in the past by Honor and Cultivation, and I think it is perfectly possible that the radiants are judged by the platonic ideal of the Nahel Bond as it exists in the Spiritual Realm, and that the voice of Honor (who created it) echoes across time. It is not  a conscious Honor bestowing this - it's just echoes of a system put in place in the past.

The latter would make it similar to Dalinar's visions.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Golstar

[FollowYourMuse]

For Venli I beleive it is Cultivation.
My first thought while reading is that it was Dalinar, (granted by that time i was sleep deprived) so I am not sure now. I am not sure where Kaladin would get a familiarity with Cultivation, other than she is part of Roshar and I would need to go back and keep an look out in next re-reads.
Similarly he unlike Dalinar who heard him in visions would not have familiarity with Tanavast. 

[Myrovyn]

3 minutes ago, Golstar said:

Are we sure this is correct? I suspect it's a ruse by Cultivation.

I remember reading that the merging of Tanavast's CS and the Stormfather happened, but I'm not sure where it was. Maybe in the scene wherein the Stormfather protects Dalinar from Odium when Dalinar has taken Yanagawn into one of his visions. However, you're right that this might not necessarily be true, especially if Cultivation is involved.

The fact that Venli's second Willshaper oath is also accepted by someone other than the Stormfather and described by her as femalen, implies that her oath at least is accepted by someone or something that represents as female, so it probably isn't Tanavast. 

 

One important question remains: why aren't these oaths being accepted by the Stormfather?

[Honorless]

I think that was Tanavast's Spiritual self. The similarity to the Stormfather was because of the merging.

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

When Kaladin said the words of his 4th ideal . A curious thing happened . A voice that wasn’t the Stormfather said these words are accepted. It’s a small thing but it has me thinking it’s foreshadowing something. I considered it could of been Dalinar.. maybe the sibling , idk it’s more to it ! Does anyone have any ideas

At first I wondered if it was Tien-as-adult (who he was just talking with in the vision), then I even wondered if it was Teft shoulder-surfing from the Spiritual Realm and butting in as a sergeant one last time.

But I think it's clear from the beginning of Ch. 111 who it was:

Quote

Dalinar returned from the Stormfather's vision and found himself still flying with the Windrunners -- face mask in place, wrapped in several layers of protective clothing.

He felt clunky and slow after being the winds moments ago. But he reveled in what he'd heard and felt. What he'd said.

These Words are accepted.

Whatever was happening at Urithiru, Kaladin would face it standing up straight.

It was Dalinar who Accepted Kaladin's Fourth Ideal, while bonded with the Stormfather in the vision and Connected to both of them.

He was the one, as Bondsmith, who was able to give Kaladin that peek into the Spiritual Realm to Connect him to Tien to enable him to say those Words and mean them; and being the first SF Bondsmith while the SF held the remnants of Honor (where the SF is now the one to Accept the Words for certain orders, like Windrunners), he was also in the right place at the right time to be the one to Accept them.

Very fitting.

[Ghanderflaffle]

I kinda just assumed it was Timbre who accepted Venli's. She generally communicates with pulses, but Reachers talk in Shadesmar.

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

I was assuming Dalinar for Kaladin and either Cultivation or the Nightwatcher for Venli

[+robardin]

27 minutes ago, Ghanderflaffle said:

I kinda just assumed it was Timbre who accepted Venli's. She generally communicates with pulses, but Reachers talk in Shadesmar.

This is a good interpretation; so far we've only seen Windrunners needing their Words Accepted by a third party, the Stormfather apparently as a proxy for Honor.

The two Bondsmiths needed their Words Accepted by the megapsren they were bonding with, and we'd already seen Shallan (Lightweaver), Lift (Edgedancer), and Szeth (Skybreaker) swear later Ideals directly to their spren. They got a burst of power in so doing, but no feedback about their "words being accepted" from another agency.

Edited November 24, 2020 by robardin

[Seloun]

It's Dalinar who accepts Kaladin's 4th Ideal:

Quote

Dalinar returned from the Stormfather’s vision and found himself still flying with the Windrunners—face mask in place, wrapped in several layers of protective clothing.

He felt clunky and slow after being the winds moments ago. But he reveled in what he’d heard and felt. What he’d said.

These Words are accepted.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

(emphasis mine)

It's easy to miss, but seems unambiguous.

[+Bliev]

Agree with the above: it was Dalinar. The in text evidence is pretty clear. But it does speak to Dalinar's unique bondsmith role with the death of Honor as it was the SF who was accepting such (e.g., he was the voice that the Lopen yelled at at the end of OB). The female voice I always interpreted as Cultivation (it would be the NW if Cultivation was dead, as I believe the the only reason the SF plays that part here is because of the death of Honor). 

[Golstar]

3 minutes ago, Seloun said:

It's Dalinar who accepts Kaladin's 4th Ideal:

(emphasis mine)

It's easy to miss, but seems unambiguous.

Agreed, I did miss this, and it is completely unambiguous. It's also extremely interesting, because it shows that gaining increased access to investiture can be facilitated by non-Spren. There is a WoB where Brandon mentions that planets have different mechanisms for 'regulating' access to magic/investiture: genetics on Scadrial, behavior on Roshar. So I guess one or more of Dalinar being the leader of the Knights Radiant, a bondsmith and bonded to a sliver of Honor, makes him a valid facilitator for judging behavior.

It was said somewhere that Honor used the Oathpact and later Nahel Bonds to regulate surgebinding, and this is different from Ashyn where it was unrestricted. I think it's well established that spren can 'judge' the initial ideal(s) on their own. I think now that increasingly powerful ideals require increasingly invested individuals to accept the behavior. When Syl despairs that "I can't remember the words" perhaps this is because she does not have enough investiture (despite whatever special connection she might have) to fill the role of adjudicator for the 4th ideal?

This leads me to expect that for the final ideals they have to be spoken at a perpendicularity.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

He was the one, as Bondsmith, who was able to give Kaladin that peek into the Spiritual Realm to Connect him to Tien to enable him to say those Words and mean them; and being the first SF Bondsmith while the SF held the remnants of Honor (where the SF is now the one to Accept the Words for certain orders, like Windrunners), he was also in the right place at the right time to be the one to Accept them.

I saw this and I considered it but I wasnt sure. Your words helped me form another theory . I think this Shows that Dalinar is Ascending further . He is Growing into Unity . I’m thinking Dalinar will merge with Stormfather and Become Unity a replacement for Honor . What do you think 

 

3 hours ago, Ghanderflaffle said:

I kinda just assumed it was Timbre who accepted Venli's. She generally communicates with pulses, but Reachers talk in Shadesmar.

I didn’t  know this is a possibility . So I’m give it a maybe . I think it was Nightwatcher . Call me crazy but I think Venli mother is being Bonded by the Nightwatcher . It’s a wild guess but Venli mother was the most connected to Roshar and I’m almost certain the last Bondsmith will be a Listner . I thought it was going to be Rlain when. Venli said he was spoken for . I guess we will see in book 5

[teknopathetic]

In the audiobook it is read with Dalinar's voice (it is very distinct from the stormfather or Tanavast) 

Edited November 24, 2020 by teknopathetic

[+Harrycrapper]

4 hours ago, Myrovyn said:

One important question remains: why aren't these oaths being accepted by the Stormfather?

As far as we had seen before RoW, the Stormfather only accepted Windrunner Oaths and Dalinar's. In the case of Shallan it was Pattern accepting Truths. I don't think we saw anyone accept Szeth's in OB but I'm not 100% on that. Lift didn't seem to have anyone accept hers either. And we have not seen Renarin, Jasnah, or any of the Dustbringers swear theirs on screen. We hadn't even seen a Stoneward before RoW, let alone a POV. 

[+Lotus]

I thought it was Dalinar, because later in a Dalinar POV we get Dalinar saying that he 'accepted Kaladins words"

[Myrovyn]

18 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

As far as we had seen before RoW, the Stormfather only accepted Windrunner Oaths and Dalinar's. In the case of Shallan it was Pattern accepting Truths. I don't think we saw anyone accept Szeth's in OB but I'm not 100% on that. Lift didn't seem to have anyone accept hers either. And we have not seen Renarin, Jasnah, or any of the Dustbringers swear theirs on screen. We hadn't even seen a Stoneward before RoW, let alone a POV. 

Thanks for answering! I probably assumed that oaths, being of Honor, should be accepted by the Stormfather, Honor's most important spren. Shows that assumptions can be dangerous.

[+Harrycrapper]

46 minutes ago, Myrovyn said:

Thanks for answering! I probably assumed that oaths, being of Honor, should be accepted by the Stormfather, Honor's most important spren. Shows that assumptions can be dangerous.

I assumed that at first as well, it would make sense. RoW has me even more confused on it, I don't even have a guess as to why it varies. 

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

8 hours ago, Myrovyn said:

Venli's second oath was also accepted by someone other than the Stormfather

So I was wondering what was Venli 2nd ideal . I remember hearing they were accepted but I don’t recall her making any oaths . Any help you can be appreciated

[teknopathetic]

Venli's were accepted by the Sibling (what I got from the audiobook readings), 

[Myrovyn]

1 minute ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

So I was wondering what was Venli 2nd ideal . I remember hearing they were accepted but I don’t recall her making any oaths . Any help you can be appreciated

Venli swears the second ideal I will seek freedom for those in bondage after she sees Lift being delivered to Raboniel in a cage. The oath is obviously not accepted as she has just seen a kid in a cage and didn't do anything.

[Myrovyn]

3 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Venli's were accepted by the Sibling (what I got from the audiobook readings), 

Thanks! Quite interesting that Venli sees the Siblings voice as femalen.