Odium won't just let Szeth keep it.

[Forest Nymphomaniac]

On 11/24/2020 at 6:30 AM, Saradas said:

(warlight, towerlight, ???light) 

 

Wild-light? I don't know if i read that in the book or someone else said it on here, but i remember reading that.

[WestTea]

11 hours ago, robardin said:

Is there a ring? The specified location is "on top of Urithiru"; what exactly is up there?

I believe the wording is:

Quote

We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either sides forces.

I believe this means the contest has no physical limit (like a boxing ring) and no time limit. I am guessing this wording is going to allow for the contest of champions to have some form of a draw. Whether that means both champions just turn around and leave Urithiru and the war continues or some other trick I do not know.

[Saradas]

20 hours ago, robardin said:

What if Vargodium does what some are speculating he'll do, and names a child or infant as his champion, expecting Dalinar to be unable to bring himself to strike it down (the basis for the Death Rattle about a man holding a blade to a suckling child and everybody wishing him to let the knife drop)... But Dalinar, seeing his gambit, responds by also naming a baby as his own champion?

I love this. It's a subversion that extends the climax of the war for another bunch of years. Book 10 Gavinor vs Oroden?

10 hours ago, Forest Nymphomaniac said:

Wild-light? I don't know if i read that in the book or someone else said it on here, but i remember reading that.

I've read that here and I think that's what the fandom is calling it but I'm not sure that's it's official.

[+robardin]

8 hours ago, WestTea said:

I believe the wording is:

I believe this means the contest has no physical limit (like a boxing ring) and no time limit. I am guessing this wording is going to allow for the contest of champions to have some form of a draw. Whether that means both champions just turn around and leave Urithiru and the war continues or some other trick I do not know.

But the wording is also a contest "to the death". And unless there is something like a flat roof on top of Urithiru, it'll have to be a fight between flying opponents?

[Forest Nymphomaniac]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

But the wording is also a contest "to the death". And unless there is something like a flat roof on top of Urithiru, it'll have to be a fight between flying opponents?

The roof is absolutely flat, Kaladin had his little face-off with the Fused and his dad up there.

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Forest Nymphomaniac said:

The roof is absolutely flat, Kaladin had his little face-off with the Fused and his dad up there.

Right, I took a look again at Shallan's drawings of Urithiru that are at the beginning of RoW (before the Prologue), and it does have a flat top.

The scene with the Fused throwing Kaladin's father off of the top, it mentioned a "pinnacle" which usually suggests a spire or something else rising and tapering to a point, so I was imagining a Championship Fight with any ground fighting possibly having to occur around it, like a deadly Maypole dance. But Shallan's picture doesn't show one. I guess "pinnacle" was just meant as "the tippy-top level".

I also wondered how throwing Lirin from there would see him falling to within 20 feet of the ground (at the base of the mountain?) as it seems like he'd most likely simply land on a lower level's parapet. I guess the Fused happened to throw (or intentionally threw) Lirin off the westward side, and the highstorm blew him further out away from the tower (and Kaladin as well).

[Forest Nymphomaniac]

4 minutes ago, robardin said:

Right, I took a look again at Shallan's drawings of Urithiru that are at the beginning of RoW (before the Prologue), and it does have a flat top.

The scene with the Fused throwing Kaladin's father off of the top, it mentioned a "pinnacle" which usually suggests a spire or something else rising and tapering to a point, so I was imagining a Championship Fight with any ground fighting possibly having to occur around it, like a deadly Maypole dance. But Shallan's picture doesn't show one. I guess "pinnacle" was just meant as "the tippy-top level".

I also wondered how throwing Lirin from there would see him falling to within 20 feet of the ground (at the base of the mountain?) as it seems like he'd most likely simply land on a lower level's parapet. I guess the Fused happened to throw (or intentionally threw) Lirin off the westward side, and the highstorm blew him further out away from the tower (and Kaladin as well).

I think in context of that unimaginably huge tower, even a small house sized platform would look like a pinnacle.

 

And I think you meant to say the leeward side ;]

[+Child of Hodor]

4 hours ago, robardin said:

But the wording is also a contest "to the death". And unless there is something like a flat roof on top of Urithiru, it'll have to be a fight between flying opponents?

It is flat they had Dalinar’s wedding up there and Dalinar bonded the Stormfather up there. 

It just has to start up there. Several surges allow easy travel off the roof. If it’s an actual fight (and not some morality / mind game contest with Mr T picking a baby or something) the champions might break the roof and fall inside fighting through the tower. 
It may be a realm spanning thing. If Dalinar sticks to fighting himself they could go to different realms during the fight, or that weird pocket dimension Stormfather pulled Kaladin into a couple times. 
 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[+robardin]

Just now, Child of Hodor said:

It just has to start up there. Several surges allow easy travel off the roof. If it’s an actual fight (and not some morality / mind game contest with Mr T picking a baby or something) the champions might break the roof and fall inside fighting through the tower. 
It may be a realm spanning thing. If Dalinar sticks to fighting himself they could go to different realms during the fight, or that weird pocket dimension Stormfather pulled Kaladin into a couple times. 

Well it is a fight "to the death" so I guess it won't be like Adolin's arena duel, where someone leaving the grounds would lose as a technical DQ.

How about a Fused as a Champion of Odium who technically isn't dead unless you use an anti-Voidlight dagger?

But no. I strongly suspect that Taravangian's "loophole" is more along the lines of "with either outcome I get what I really want", and not so much as "I figured out a way to give my Champion an all but guaranteed win".

Quote

He sorted through Odium's previous plans and saw all their flaws. How had he let himself be maneuvered into this particular deal with Dalinar? How had he let himself rely so much upon a contest of champions? Didn't he know? The way to win was to make sure that, no matter the outcome, you were satisfied. Odium should never have entered a deal he could not absolutely control.

It can still be done, Taravangian realized, seeing the possibilities -- so subtle -- that his predecessor had missed. Yes... Dalinar has set himself up... to fail. I can beat him.

Note that the way the conditions are presently outlined, Odium will remain bound to Roshar in either outcome. And what Odium most wants, regardless of the Vessel, is to be free from that constraint, which Dalinar can grant him explicitly (as holding the remnants of Honor), or simply lose the administration of through reneging on his oath.

Quote

"I cannot break my word," Odium said, the heat increasing. "I basically am incapable of it."

"Basically?" Dalinar pressed. "What happens, Odium, if you break your word."

"Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me -- chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals -- would be void."

Somehow, Vargodium plans to choose a Champion, or surround his Champion with a context of some kind, such that Dalinar will be all but forced to "break the contract".

And so what are the parameters of that contract (not the agreed upon stakes or outcomes)? "A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side's forces."

Is there a "champion" he could send out there that someone else among Team Dalinar (not the designated champion) would not be able to resist lashing out at, despite the stakes? Or someone who Dalinar's champion would be "unwilling" to fight to the death, thus negating the first bolded part?

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 hours ago, robardin said:

Well it is a fight "to the death" so I guess it won't be like Adolin's arena duel, where someone leaving the grounds would lose as a technical DQ.

How about a Fused as a Champion of Odium who technically isn't dead unless you use an anti-Voidlight dagger?

But no. I strongly suspect that Taravangian's "loophole" is more along the lines of "with either outcome I get what I really want", and not so much as "I figured out a way to give my Champion an all but guaranteed win".

Note that the way the conditions are presently outlined, Odium will remain bound to Roshar in either outcome. And what Odium most wants, regardless of the Vessel, is to be free from that constraint, which Dalinar can grant him explicitly (as holding the remnants of Honor), or simply lose the administration of through reneging on his oath.

Somehow, Vargodium plans to choose a Champion, or surround his Champion with a context of some kind, such that Dalinar will be all but forced to "break the contract".

And so what are the parameters of that contract (not the agreed upon stakes or outcomes)? "A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side's forces."

Is there a "champion" he could send out there that someone else among Team Dalinar (not the designated champion) would not be able to resist lashing out at, despite the stakes? Or someone who Dalinar's champion would be "unwilling" to fight to the death, thus negating the first bolded part?

This was my theory. I was thinking he could pick someone like Moash or Mraize, inform Dalinar, then ensure that the Champion runs into Kaladin/Shallan before either is aware of the choice. Dalinar, honorable man that he is, would acknowledge his responsibility to the detriment of all.

[Highline]

On 11/24/2020 at 5:37 AM, ShalladinForever said:

I was under the impression that Honorblades were created directly from Honor itself.  NB can kill a vessel, but the power of a Shard is infinite. 
 

I wouldn’t be surprised if Honorblades could just as easily kill a vessel with a well placed strike.  

I thought honorblades were made of Tanavastium? We’ve now seen Raysium so Tanavastium makes sense, will we see Korvellium? 

 

[ftl]

45 minutes ago, Mr.Brough said:

I was under the impression that Honorblades were created directly from Honor itself. 

 

45 minutes ago, Mr.Brough said:

I thought honorblades were made of Tanavastium?

Same thing, I think.

[IndigoAjah]

It would make sense if they were. 

22 minutes ago, ftl said:

 

Same thing, I think.

 

[Solant]

Calling it now... The final contest will be that card game the singers are playing in OB, up on the roof of the tower at a little card table. They will have to play cards to the death, so if T chooses himself as champion, his opponent will eventually die of old age and T will win. Done. 

[Dreamwa1ker]

On 11/24/2020 at 8:01 AM, Ixthos said:

I've been convinced for a while now, the only complete answer is to combine the shards and share them between ten people, each representing a part of them, and working together to maintain balance.

This solution would be set up quite nicely by Dalinar and Jasnah's philosophical debate in this book about having a single ruler or more distributed rule.

[Ixthos]

2 hours ago, Dreamwa1ker said:

This solution would be set up quite nicely by Dalinar and Jasnah's philosophical debate in this book about having a single ruler or more distributed rule.

Indeed! Also, if both Dalinar and Jasnah take up the combined power the discussion could be very interesting.

 

Dalinar "Wait, so we're now gods?"

Jasnah "Let's not jump to conclusions."

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

On 11/25/2020 at 4:22 PM, Bliev said:

Cultivation is better than Honor at future sight, and it’s unclear how well Odium sees the future. So I doubt cultivation will be blindsided. I do agree that T will continue the plan, and may try to take out Cultivation, and even may succeed, but I’m doubtful that she’ll be unprepared for it.

 

T explains while talking to Cultivation that while they can see the future, they can't predict the "hearts of men" or something like that.  She is clearly very good at predicting the future, but she could never know what T would do once taking up the Shard.  She is going to attempt to "mentor" Taravangian to turn him into a respectable god, but I think Odium itself is too powerful for any man to control its desire to destroy.  

 

I wouldn't be surprised if she has several different plans depending on what T does next though.  It would be weird for her to be killed off after we've gotten so little of her over the past 4 books.  

[Bloodless]

On 29/11/2020 at 3:24 PM, Solant said:

Calling it now... The final contest will be that card game the singers are playing in OB, up on the roof of the tower at a little card table. They will have to play cards to the death, so if T chooses himself as champion, his opponent will eventually die of old age and T will win. Done. 

Dalinar's side has immortals too. Send Taln as champion. He won't win any of the games, but he won't die either. 

[Leuthie]

On 11/24/2020 at 4:25 AM, Mason Wheeler said:

My biggest thought on the subject is, what exactly are Honorblades made of, that a direct strike from Nightblood, which is capable of slaying a Vessel, only leaves it slightly chipped?!?

Nightblood is made of steel with heavy Investiture. Honorblades are probably made of "tanavastium" (Honor's god metal) and aren't nearly as heavily invested as Nightblood.

Nightblood is so Invested, that it has its own thoughts, can mentally effect those around it, and can literally suck all Investiture into itself from things it touches. Honorblades are Invested enough to provide a Connection to Honor to allow the wielder to use Stormlight and perform surges. The abilities aren't in the blade, they're in the Connection that wielding the blade creates.

Investiture aside, Honorblades are probably stronger than Nightblood: godmetal vs steel.  However, the Investiture levels are so vastly different that Nightblood's material is reinforced to be much stronger than Honorblade's. Hence the chip.

[SirNoSell]

On 25/11/2020 at 2:24 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Social Darwinism.

I don't think it will be social darwinism as the definition is in favour of things like political conservatism and imperialism.

Both things that go against growth and passion.

I'd argue more of Ultra Darwinism like Spartan-Era Eugenics and social acceptance/indifference of cannabilism when necessary.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, BrightLord Swageas said:

I don't think it will be social darwinism as the definition is in favour of things like political conservatism

That is, not true.

I won't say more otherwise it'll derail the thread but if you want to PM me we can talk about it.

[+Bliev]

On 12/7/2020 at 10:11 PM, Leuthie said:

Investiture aside, Honorblades are probably stronger than Nightblood: godmetal vs steel.  However, the Investiture levels are so vastly different that Nightblood's material is reinforced to be much stronger than Honorblade's. Hence the chip.

I have def wondered about this. Is this just a matter of +/- investiture or the *source* of the investiture? Nightblood has consumed so very much investiture and so many different types...Honorblades are small splinters of Honor, and so are sapient spren (or cultivation, but still), so they seem equally matched. But Nightblood has investiture from endowment, honor, cultivation, etc. etc. by now. Does that matter?

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, BrightLord Swageas said:

I'd argue more of Ultra Darwinism like Spartan-Era Eugenics and social acceptance/indifference of cannabilism when necessary.

You literally just described Social Darwinism. Eugenics is a BIG part of Social Darwinism. It’s the whole ‘survival of the fittest’ maxim.