Theoryspren

Moash at the end!

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First off I would like to say I hate Moash and that nothing can ever redeem him however I thoght this was just interesting.

At the end Moash looses his eyesight. He goes blind. He has access to stormlight however so why doesn't he just heal it. We know that stormlight heals you to how you percieve yourself. So why does Moash think even if only subconsciously that he should be blind? Maybe just maybe somewhere in the back of his mind he does feel his pain and Odium's grip on him is not as strong as we think. So maybe he is punishing himself for killing Teft his fellow member of bridge four. Again could this indicate he is not as lost as we thought. 

I still hate him and don't want a redemtion arc for Moash under any circumstances. But the fact that his eyes are not being healed by stormlight shows somewhere in his twisted head he feels he deserves it.

Just a thought.

Still, storm Moash.

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I wondering if the next book he's going to be constantly "seeing" Teft behind his eyelids, showing that there's a limit to how much pain you can give Odium. Just like Amaram still hurt.

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We are told that Moash thinks he deserves his pain, he's just cowardly and gives it to Odium so he can be "free". When he's exposed to the Sibling's light, his pain returns to him (just like it did when Renarin appears near him) and he knows he deserves it. I'm not against a redemption arc for him, but that really depends on what you mean by "redemption", ya know? I don't want him swearing ideals and leading the Radiants into a charge, but if he pulls a Hrathen I can see it coming together well.

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I don't think it's anything like that, personally I think it might be related to the significance of eyes on Roshar. People killed by Sharblade have their eyes burn out, deadspren have their eyes scratched out, I think Moash suffered some wound that's so deep (spiritually, probably) that it can't be healed by the honorblade. I think one of the limits of honorblades is that they can't heal shardblade cuts.

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I think you all are correct when you say it is a spiritual wound. I think Moash thinks he deserves to have his eyes burnt out like Teft's and he is blind to the fact that serving Odium is not granting him peace. Blind to all the pain he has needlessly caused. Blind to the fact that even though he calls them friends he continual betrays them. I think when the oath pact is reforged he will go to Damnation by himself to give team Honor a repreve. 

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Something tangently related to Moash's blindness not being healed by Stormlight; Moash still has his Bridge Four tattoo on his shoulder. In theory once he gained Jezrian's honorblade and drew in Stormlight it should have pushed out the ink. It didn't. Therefore despite it all, Moash still considers himself Bridge Four.

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On 12/1/2020 at 4:28 PM, The Sovereign said:

Something tangently related to Moash's blindness not being healed by Stormlight; Moash still has his Bridge Four tattoo on his shoulder. In theory once he gained Jezrian's honorblade and drew in Stormlight it should have pushed out the ink. It didn't. Therefore despite it all, Moash still considers himself Bridge Four.

I can't help but remember the exchange Kaladin and Moash had in Words of Radiance. In some way Moash is doing exactly what Teft did in his youth, only worse. Teft turned to fire moss to take away the pain. Moash turned to Odium. I hope Moash seeks redemption. But like Boromir (SPOILER lol) I think it must end in his death. There isn't really a way to come back from what he did. I still don't really buy that Szeth wasn't executed (he was but wasn't). I know end of the world and everything, but still.

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This is a real thing. You can go essentially psychologically blind. Your brain reacts an overpowering stimulus by shutting off your ability to see. Your eyes work. Your nerves work. Your brain doesn't process it. And because it's a mental thing, not a physical one Stormlight has nothing to do with it. 

The last fictional character I came across that referenced this was Martine from Tad William's Otherland. 

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Yeah, I agree with @Master Silver, that did seem like the road he was heading towards, I'm less sure after reading RoW but he wasn't just killed off so it's still possible.

He's still Connected with Kaladin as we see with Kal's Visions and Moash's thoughts regarding Kal and the Bridge 4 salute. It's Kal's 4th Ideal that makes me doubt Moash's redemption arc the most, even more so than his killing of Teft & Phendorana.

I was surprised by his blindness and wondering what exactly caused it, those are interesting possibilities regarding that.

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Try not to hate Moash.  If he could, he would hate himself more than anyone.

The comparisons between Zzeth, Dalinar and Moash are interesting  to me.

Dalinar was war incarnate.   The epitome of might making right, until it backfired on him causing him to spiral.  Hitting rock bottom after the death of his brother knowing he needed to step up to the plate.  

Szeth committed atrocity, all the while placing the blame on those who held his stone.   He has been the tool of others.   Once he is free, he is lost and puts his life in the hands of Dalinar, a man who much like Szeths has crumbled a kingdom beneath his will. 

Moash is still on his path.  Much like Dalinar and Szeth has killed leaders.   Moashs wrongs arent under the guise of either war or being truthless.  They are personal and motivated by the wrongs committed to those he loved, perpetrated by a corrupt imperfect system.  

Moash, is what Kaladin realistically could have been.  Moash is the inverse of Kaladin.  They both went down seperate forks in the road. 

Kaladin struggled and chose his path and continues down it.  He has bridge four, his family, and the friendship  of Adolin and Shallan.   Most importantly, Sill. He stumble but keeps walking his steep path.

Moash,  after the attempt on the king is alienated. His tenuous connections to the diagram  are cut short.  The skills Kaladin taught him allow him to survive what killed his companions. He is alone.    Doing menual labor so he doesnt have to think about what has transpired.   He is the outsider. He is offered absolution. Hes already tumbling down his path, he decideds to compound it.  

He is a tragic figure.   He had his revenge twice over as RoW starts.   And yet is meaningless.  He is a husk.  He was stripped of the emotions that made him even want revenge.   Yet he continues down a path aimlessly, because the climb back of his downward path is too steep.  He has nothing.   

He has done far less than Szeth and Dalinar.   But has fallen much further than either. 

Neither Dalinar, nor Szeth have had redemption.  There is none. Nor for Moash.  While Dalinar can accept what he has done, and Szeth is willing to try.   Moash has thrown off the bondage of responsibility. 

Moash can only fall further or stop being blind to the responsibility of his actions.   

 

Things to consider

Dead eyes dont have eyes.  He killed a spern capable of being a shard blade.  

Taravangain is now Odium, moash is under Odiuns influence.   This probably doesnt work chronologically. 

Or, hes blind to his personal responsibility. 

I think Moash has the most potential for his arch.  

 

Edited by quackquack
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6 hours ago, Aminar said:

This is a real thing. You can go essentially psychologically blind. Your brain reacts an overpowering stimulus by shutting off your ability to see. Your eyes work. Your nerves work. Your brain doesn't process it. And because it's a mental thing, not a physical one Stormlight has nothing to do with it. 

The last fictional character I came across that referenced this was Martine from Tad William's Otherland. 

First Otherland reference I've ever seen anyone use. I'm starting my reread after reading Ready Player Two. It's been long enough that I barely remember who Martine is.

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3 hours ago, Leuthie said:

First Otherland reference I've ever seen anyone use. I'm starting my reread after reading Ready Player Two. It's been long enough that I barely remember who Martine is.

She's the blind one. :P Also Otherland is one of the most relevant and accurate Sci-Fi works of the 90's/2000's. So many things right about internet culture. 

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42 minutes ago, Aminar said:

She's the blind one. :P Also Otherland is one of the most relevant and accurate Sci-Fi works of the 90's/2000's. So many things right about internet culture. 

I remember the first book being a slog. By the second book, it was like reading my future :P

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I just wanted to point out that when a strong Connection is broken, often something happens w/ the eyes.  When the Connection between Nahel Spren and their KsR is broken, the spren appear w/ scratched out eyes.  A big part of this is because they no longer have a Connection to BAM.  The other one that I saw someone mention is peoples' eyes getting burned out when hit w/ a shard or honorblade.  This is the severing of the Connection between their spiritual/cognitive/physical self.  

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6 minutes ago, prod1212 said:

I just wanted to point out that when a strong Connection is broken, often something happens w/ the eyes.  When the Connection between Nahel Spren and their KsR is broken, the spren appear w/ scratched out eyes.  A big part of this is because they no longer have a Connection to BAM.  The other one that I saw someone mention is peoples' eyes getting burned out when hit w/ a shard or honorblade.  This is the severing of the Connection between their spiritual/cognitive/physical self.  

Not neccesarily due to a broken bond with BAM, it's due to BAM being captured.

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I am trying to remember, is Moash using stormlight to power the honorblade?(or maybe voidlight?)

Also we do know that the healing from the honorblades is weaker, so it could take more time or may not heal that at all.

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20 minutes ago, apepi said:

I am trying to remember, is Moash using stormlight to power the honorblade?(or maybe voidlight?)

Also we do know that the healing from the honorblades is weaker, so it could take more time or may not heal that at all.

I believe he still uses Stormlight, though I don't have time to search through the book to be 100% certain. 

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3 hours ago, apepi said:

I am trying to remember, is Moash using stormlight to power the honorblade?(or maybe voidlight?)

Also we do know that the healing from the honorblades is weaker, so it could take more time or may not heal that at all.

It's explicitly mentioned that he's using Stormlight after he meets Navani.

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On 10/03/2021 at 8:05 PM, apepi said:

Also we do know that the healing from the honorblades is weaker, so it could take more time or may not heal that at all.

That’s right - we know from Szeth that honorblade healing doesn’t fix wounds from Shardblades. At all. 

Assuming that Moash’s eyes don’t get better over time, I suspect that the blindness is a spiritual problem rather than a physical one. 

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On 3/13/2021 at 10:50 AM, RedBlue said:

That’s right - we know from Szeth that honorblade healing doesn’t fix wounds from Shardblades. At all. 

Assuming that Moash’s eyes don’t get better over time, I suspect that the blindness is a spiritual problem rather than a physical one. 

Or is it a mental one?  The Stormlight books focus a lot on "cognitive" effects of events and actions on the characters.  Brandon tends to deal mostly with the physical and cognitive "planes" and leaves the spiritual to the reader's interpretation.  

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On 12/3/2020 at 0:27 PM, Aminar said:

This is a real thing. You can go essentially psychologically blind. Your brain reacts an overpowering stimulus by shutting off your ability to see. Your eyes work. Your nerves work. Your brain doesn't process it. And because it's a mental thing, not a physical one Stormlight has nothing to do with it. 

The last fictional character I came across that referenced this was Martine from Tad William's Otherland. 

Fascinating! I never knew that. 

I'm curious what Brandon will do with Moash in book 5. I've always seen him more as a physical villain than a philosophical one. There isn't a great debate between Moash and Kaladin in their points of view like there is with Dalinar and Taravangian. Moash gave into his self-pity and hate while Kaladin didn't. 

Is new Odium going to fix Moash's eyesight or give him super hearing to compensate for lack of sight? Make him Bat-Moash? I don't see the point of blinding him to immediately undo it. 

Book 5 will probably cover more than 10 days, but it seems like the bulk of the book will be in that 10 day period. Is he going to have a 10 day redemption arc where he becomes a radiant? Is he going to sit around feeling bad for 10 days and not really be involved? Is he going to be cured by Odium? I don't love any of these options. 

 

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41 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Fascinating! I never knew that. 

I'm curious what Brandon will do with Moash in book 5. I've always seen him more as a physical villain than a philosophical one. There isn't a great debate between Moash and Kaladin in their points of view like there is with Dalinar and Taravangian. Moash gave into his self-pity and hate while Kaladin didn't. 

Is new Odium going to fix Moash's eyesight or give him super hearing to compensate for lack of sight? Make him Bat-Moash? I don't see the point of blinding him to immediately undo it. 

Book 5 will probably cover more than 10 days, but it seems like the bulk of the book will be in that 10 day period. Is he going to have a 10 day redemption arc where he becomes a radiant? Is he going to sit around feeling bad for 10 days and not really be involved? Is he going to be cured by Odium? I don't love any of these options. 

 

Yeah, Moash was just wasted potential, nothing that I can see looks good.

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On 11/25/2020 at 7:02 PM, Eingradd said:

We are told that Moash thinks he deserves his pain, he's just cowardly and gives it to Odium so he can be "free". When he's exposed to the Sibling's light, his pain returns to him (just like it did when Renarin appears near him) and he knows he deserves it. I'm not against a redemption arc for him, but that really depends on what you mean by "redemption", ya know? I don't want him swearing ideals and leading the Radiants into a charge, but if he pulls a Hrathen I can see it coming together well.

He's not sorry about what he's done. He's not sorry for killing Teft.

He's only sorry that he has to feel his pain and guilt.

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