Gavilar evil or good?

[neshua_kadal]

So, does anyone else thinks that Gavilar wasn't actually looking towards bringing something like Everstorm, but just looking to free all singers from their bondage? As we know Restares is Kelek who, from the epigraphs, knew about the effect of Ba-ado-Mishram's imprisonment on Roshar and perhaps guessed that Radiants gave up their powers for this reason (probably) as they felt guilty for causing such drastic change to Roshar and its native population. So he decided to restore the singers and the only way to do that was to bring back Taln from Braize, thereby freeing fused and suing for peace. He had anti-voidlight already prepared and ready to destroy fused as a backup incase they don't work with him. It's such a marvel that we still can't figure out what Gavilar wanted. While he was an asshole towards his family, may be here he wanted to do something good. What do you people think?

Edited November 23, 2020 by neshua_kadal

[Eris]

In my opinion. The more we hear about the dinner party, the more I am seeing Gavilar as an arrogant, egotistic, paranoid maniac. Eshonai hated him for daring of bringing back the old gods and there wasn't really a need to bring them back. He had pushed Navani away when these behaviours started the fester. It could be possible that the shift in personality was influenced by something we are unsure of at the moment. But Gavilar to me was never really "good" or felt anything akin to compassion or sympathy. Dalinar even warned Eshonai that Gavilar would cross them and fight them when he saw fit in the treaty. This warning is in a flashback in RoW

[+Oltux72]

41 minutes ago, neshua_kadal said:

So, does anyone else thinks that Gavilar wasn't actually looking towards bringing something like Everstorm, but just looking to free all singers from their bondage?

Gavilar, Gavilar the conqueror? Why? Seriously, why? He wanted to bring back Radiancy and prevent stagnation. With himself as immortal leader of course.

41 minutes ago, neshua_kadal said:

As we know Restares is Kelek who, from the epigraphs, knew about the effect of Ba-ado-Mishram's imprisonment on Roshar and perhaps guessed that Radiants gave up their powers for this reason (probably) as they felt guilty for causing such drastic change to Roshar and its native population.

No, I am sorry, but all of them? Hardly. There must have been a large number of them who were perfectly happy to see the Parshendi problem solved for good. Even if they sort of agreed that Radiancy had to end, why en masse and immediately. The Spren can simply do that by literally doing nothing and waiting. They just don't rebond.
The Recreance is mysterious and important, but not explainable by a simple guilt trip.

 

[WhiteLeeopard]

While we cannot know anything for certain until BS shows us, Gavilar seems a stain worse than Sadeas and Amaram combined, or at least on par. Perhaps just as bad as the two of them but with greater capacity. 

[LiftIRL]

If he really wanted to just free the singers, he would have released Ba-Ado-Mishram. We know he had conferred with the heralds, which, as we see with Kelek, know about the situtation with the unmade and the minds of Parshmen. I cant even remember if we canonically know he thought about the parshmn being released as ""voidbringers""- surely if he did he would have thought of some precautionary measures for the safety of his rule, like Jasnah did in the earlier series, right?

[+robardin]

I am pretty sure the arrogance and the cruelly domineering behavior that Gavilar exhibited just before his death in the Prologue was due to an Unmade - the same one that affected Lin Davar in the same way later. Navani even remarks to herself that it was a recent turn for Gavilar. He hadn't always been like this, nor even "like this but it's gotten so much worse lately".

At one point in a WoR flashback, Shallan reflects on her father's "new anger, this cold anger that terrified her", and if you count the "N years ago" in the chapter heading back, it happens after Gavilar's death - so it's the same type of "turn" into the same kind of monster (Gavilar: "Jasnah will obey me and marry Amaram" - Lin: "This wouldn't happen if they all just obeyed!").

If Nergaoul and Moelach move around Alethkar, why couldn't whatever this Unmade is do the same? Chemoarish? Dai-Gonarthis? Those are the two we haven't seen in action yet (and wasn't trapped in a gem like B-A-M).

There's a WoB that Balat's compulsion to tear apart living cremlings is due to this outside malevolent influence, as well. And I worried a bit about Shallan, or at least Formless, when she suddenly erupted to seize control, the way she talked to Pattern in RoW Ch. 93:

Quote

... Formless was a composite of the three - a single person with Shallan's drawing and Lightweaving abilities, Radiant's determination and ability to get things done, and Veil's ability to push aside the pain. Veil's ability to see the truth.

Lies, Shallan, Veil thought. I should have seen this. I should have known...

... She crossed the room, passing Pattern, who had withdrawn to the corner. He stood in the shadows, his pattern moving lethargically.

"What's happening?" he said, "Something is very wrong with you, Shallan. I have handled this so poorly. I talked to Wit yesterday, and he--"

"You're still doing that?" Formless said. "You're still disobeying me?"

Pattern pulled away further.

"I've had enough of you," Formless hissed.

Demands for obedience, belittling and haranguing but without directly assaulting a specific beloved target (physically). Saying things like "I've had enough of you", or "how tired I grow of your constant questions" to Navani, or what Lin Davar shouts at Balat as he beat him with the fireplace poker "Why. Can't. You. Do. Anything. Right?"

Perhaps "Formless" was Shallan feeling she needed to suppress a part of herself not just for breaking the bond with Testament, but because of feeling the influence of that same Unmade?

I fully believe Gavliar - having been going down the path of receiving the Stormfather visions that Dalinar would later receive - started out simply wanting to Unite humanity for the Final Desolation. But in learning more about the nature of the Heralds and the Oathpact in his involvement with the Sons of Honor and possibly the Ghostbloods, the megalomaniacal influence of this Unmade - the same influence that drove Lin Davar to be determined to rise from being a relatively minor Veden house to becoming a highprince through Soulcasting marble for profit? Does that not sound crazy? - he wanted to become as a Herald himself. That was not his original goal, but one he was twisted into pursuing.

Edited November 23, 2020 by robardin

[Rorzikel]

6 hours ago, LiftIRL said:

If he really wanted to just free the singers, he would have released Ba-Ado-Mishram. We know he had conferred with the heralds, which, as we see with Kelek, know about the situtation with the unmade and the minds of Parshmen. I cant even remember if we canonically know he thought about the parshmn being released as ""voidbringers""- surely if he did he would have thought of some precautionary measures for the safety of his rule, like Jasnah did in the earlier series, right?

That is dependent on whether or not he knew where Ba-Ado-Mishram's gemstone prison was located. Which is a distinct possibility given all else he knew about realmatics and the secrets of Roshar, but it's not guaranteed. You'd probably get a Desolation on your hands either way given the False Desolation was caused by Mishram.

[AirsickHighlander]

4 hours ago, robardin said:

Perhaps "Formless" was Shallan feeling she needed to suppress a part of herself not just for breaking the bond with Testament, but because of feeling the influence of that same Unmade?

I really like this post, it's inspiring some extremely airsick thinking on my part. What would the implications be if Shallan was a human woman whose body acts as the storage container for a spren, like Wrath from Fullmetal Alchemist? By either tragic fate or intricate design, a little girl was used to try to contain one of the Unmade. Cryptics had already left in search of new radiants, so the group watching over her with the seon-box arrange for Testament to bond with the girl, because lightweavers had been effective against the midnight mother in the past. 

 

This fails to contain the spren's influence, and her family is irreparably corrupted. Her mother sees what's happening and tries to defend her family by sacrificing her daughter, but Shallan is able to defend herself, after which she breaks her bond with testament in her grief, and things get SO much worse as there are now even less checks on the Unmade's power. Her father is driven to cold furies, her brothers start torturing small animals, gambling to poverty, and other such character flaws. Of course, here it falls apart, why does the spren not influence the sailors she hires, or jasnah, or really anyone she meets before she breaks off Formless with Veil and dampens its power again...

 

BUT, Shallan does have a connection with the Midnight Mother, telling her "I know you"(although MM seems like a Darkweaver(tm), so that could easily explain the connection) and she can resist the urges of the Soul of the Revel (although she's radiant at this point, so..), so some sort of bond with an unmade could be giving her strength? The one thing I found in my perusal after reading your post robardin was this tidbit which could imply that her MM connection and MM's fear of lightweavers may be separate:

Quote

“I don’t know. This creature … she’s been watching me. She’s changed how I see the tower. I feel like I understand her, a connection I cannot explain. That can’t be a good thing, right? Can we even trust what I think?”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 307). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

but even that's weaksauce.

It was a fun theory to type up though!

[neshua_kadal]

15 hours ago, Eris said:

In my opinion. The more we hear about the dinner party, the more I am seeing Gavilar as an arrogant, egotistic, paranoid maniac. Eshonai hated him for daring of bringing back the old gods and there wasn't really a need to bring them back. He had pushed Navani away when these behaviours started the fester. It could be possible that the shift in personality was influenced by something we are unsure of at the moment. But Gavilar to me was never really "good" or felt anything akin to compassion or sympathy. Dalinar even warned Eshonai that Gavilar would cross them and fight them when he saw fit in the treaty. This warning is in a flashback in RoW

Yeah but as I said, it shifted a little this book. We know now that "Gods of Listeners" are fused, not Odium as he'll be referred to as "THE God". I think that that Gavilar just wanted to bring back Taln from Braize via worldhopping. That would have of course, released the Fused bringing back the said Parshendi gods. But Axindweth, the one who gave Venli Ulim and was ultimately responsible for the Everstorm, fled from Alethkar coz she was discovered as a traitor to the king. This implies their goals were different and also that Gavilar didn't kow about Ulim, as he would have asked Venli about the gemstone that was given to her. Ofcourse all of this might be cancelled out by the next book, but right now, it seems plausible as others mentioned that Gavilar might have been under influence of something else to have become such an arse, as Navani herself said he used to be a good person. It could also have been just to keep Navani out of whatever was going on with his life for her safety, for he berated Dalinar as well. But upon nearing death, he entrusted Dalinar to find the words. Seems pretty out of character for him to do that if he thought Dalinar to be a brute. He could have just asked Szeth to say that to Amaram, as he was present at the feast.

[neshua_kadal]

11 hours ago, LiftIRL said:

If he really wanted to just free the singers, he would have released Ba-Ado-Mishram. We know he had conferred with the heralds, which, as we see with Kelek, know about the situtation with the unmade and the minds of Parshmen. I cant even remember if we canonically know he thought about the parshmn being released as ""voidbringers""- surely if he did he would have thought of some precautionary measures for the safety of his rule, like Jasnah did in the earlier series, right?

Pretty sure Kelek and others, and hence Gavilar, didn't know where Mishram was/is, or they could have done that. Mishram was imprisoned after heralds had given up on the Oathpact, honor was shattered or like Leras was at the end (probably) and Nale would have released it by now if he knew considering his siding with singers for the war. Anyways, it's just a theory. We probably won't know until book 5 (or even 10 if the prologue format continues to back 5) what his motivations were.

[kaellok]

17 hours ago, neshua_kadal said:

While he was an asshole towards his family, may be here he wanted to do something good. What do you people think?

Maybe earlier on he did.  But by the time he died, he wanted to be immortal.  And not just in the way of his legacy and what he'd leave behind (as Dalinar tells us in Oathbringer), but likely something much more literally eternal--akin to the Heralds.

Quote

I have discovered the entrance to the realm of gods and legends, and once I join them, my kingdom will never end.  I will never end."

Gavilar speaking to Navani in the Prologue to Rhythm of War

That does not, at all, sound like the words of someone who is interested in doing good, but instead has a different focus.

Quote

[Gavilar] "Our enslaved parshmen were once like you.  Then we somehow robbed them of their ability to undergo the transformation.  We did it by capturing a spren.  An ancient, crucial spren"  He looked at her, green eyes alight.  "I've seen how that can be reversed.  A new storm that will bring the Heralds out of hiding.  A new war."

...

[Eshonai] "So you seek for war?"

[Gavilar] "I seek for an end to something that we never finished.  My people were Radiant once, and your people--the parshmen--were vibrant.  Who is served by this drab world where my people fight each other in endless squabbles, without light to guide them, and your people are as good as corpses?"

Gavilar and Eshonai speaking in the Prologue to Oathbringer

Specific mention of the storm.  A desire to ignite a new war.  Again, this is incredibly on the nose.  Maybe Gavilar 6 years ago didn't want this, but Gavilar did on the day he died.

[neshua_kadal]

2 hours ago, kaellok said:

Maybe earlier on he did.  But by the time he died, he wanted to be immortal.  And not just in the way of his legacy and what he'd leave behind (as Dalinar tells us in Oathbringer), but likely something much more literally eternal--akin to the Heralds.

That does not, at all, sound like the words of someone who is interested in doing good, but instead has a different focus.

Specific mention of the storm.  A desire to ignite a new war.  Again, this is incredibly on the nose.  Maybe Gavilar 6 years ago didn't want this, but Gavilar did on the day he died.

Yeah so he refers to Mishram here, obviously. The new storm could be Everstorm, but if he wanted to bring it, why would he think Axindweth was a traitor to his cause when she's the person who first brought a voidspren from this storm. May be he meant something else when he said the word storm. Most probably it was from his visions. As we know, SF first showed these visions to Gavilar and in these visions, Tanavast does mention the new storm quite a lot.

Edit: Also, yeah Gavilar is looking for power here, obviously. The purpose of my post was to discuss the Odium aspect of it all as we all thought previously, maybe Gavilar wasn't responsible for Everstorm and Odium returning in such power. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by neshua_kadal

[Eris]

5 minutes ago, neshua_kadal said:

Yeah so he refers to Mishram here, obviously. The new storm could be Everstorm, but if he wanted to bring it, why would he think Axindweth was a traitor to his cause when she's the person who first brought a voidspren from this storm. May be he meant something else when he said the word storm. Most probably it was from his visions. As we know, SF first showed these visions to Gavilar and in these visions, Tanavast does mention the new storm quite a lot.

It could be like someone else said and they wanted to bring Taln out of Braize but not bring back the Fused. It could have been a misunderstanding that Gavilar meant Taln as their god not the Fused. Therefore, Axindweth would have been working against him and why she was chased off the planet. 

[neshua_kadal]

2 minutes ago, Eris said:

It could be like someone else said and they wanted to bring Taln out of Braize but not bring back the Fused. It could have been a misunderstanding that Gavilar meant Taln as their god not the Fused. Therefore, Axindweth would have been working against him and why she was chased off the planet. 

Yes exactly, hence he and Sons of Honor didn't want Odium back in such power, or the Fused permanently on Roshar from Braize. Because it seems really stupid now that he wanted this, specially since Stormfather thought him worthy enough to show the visions. There were other leaders in the world, he could have shown them the visions, or even Dalinar. If it were the king of Alethela thing, then Elhokar should have received the visions after Gav's death.

[Eris]

14 minutes ago, neshua_kadal said:

Yes exactly, hence he and Sons of Honor didn't want Odium back in such power, or the Fused permanently on Roshar from Braize. Because it seems really stupid now that he wanted this, specially since Stormfather thought him worthy enough to show the visions. There were other leaders in the world, he could have shown them the visions, or even Dalinar. If it were the king of Alethela thing, then Elhokar should have received the visions after Gav's death.

This is most likely reasoning behind Gavilar because he sounds like he was consumed by passion which is odium but I don't think his purpose was to bring odium back. I do agree with this. 

[kaellok]

4 hours ago, neshua_kadal said:

Yeah so he refers to Mishram here, obviously. The new storm could be Everstorm, but if he wanted to bring it, why would he think Axindweth was a traitor to his cause when she's the person who first brought a voidspren from this storm. May be he meant something else when he said the word storm. Most probably it was from his visions. As we know, SF first showed these visions to Gavilar and in these visions, Tanavast does mention the new storm quite a lot.

Edit: Also, yeah Gavilar is looking for power here, obviously. The purpose of my post was to discuss the Odium aspect of it all as we all thought previously, maybe Gavilar wasn't responsible for Everstorm and Odium returning in such power. 

Secret societies gonna secret.  There's any number of reasons that mostly all boil down to different organizations want different things, even if they had been allies up until that point.  Maybe the Ghostbloods were only after proof of concept of an idea, and once that had been obtained, had no further use for the Sons of Honor and little wish for renewed conflict.  Maybe literally the only thing they cared about was getting the gem containing BAM, and seeding Roshar with voidspren was the price they had to pay, but then Gavilar reneged on the deal.  Maybe they wanted a return of the Heralds and Desolations and a final war that actually ends, but they didn't want Gavilar becoming an effectively immortal Cognitive Shadow.

Gavilar not mentioning BAM directly is somewhat interesting because his mention of the storm explicitly states that that is what will restore the minds to the Singers stuck in slave-form.  Which, given what we know of Kalak, doesn't seem like it would be the preferred method if they had it available; if nothing else, surely Amaram would have freed them if the gem was available.  I can kinda see an argument that Gavilar was after a Human v. Singer fight to extinction, and not concerned with Everstorm.  Given his sources of information, though, it's hard to realistically believe that he could separate them out.  And whether he was responsible for the Everstorm, I believe that he did plan on using it.

And I tend to give strongly worded replies, as I subscribe to the Assuredness Movement of scholars for myself (but hypocritically find fault with others for doing so, because in my infinite wisdom only I know the exact degree to which it is permissible), so want to call out specifically that I think it's great to look at things from different points of view than the prevailing theories or what seems to be suggested by the books.  There's a lot of misdirection going on that we experience because of the differing viewpoints.  It's wonderful and great, and could entirely be in keeping to slowly have our opinions shaped from Gavilar Is A Great Man shift to Gavilar Is Super Not Cool and then back to Gavilar Wasn't So Bad After All.

[Hayama]

His emotional and physical (not seen but mentioned) abuse of Navani firmly puts him in the evil camp to me. Having personally seen the long-term effects of such, and having it reflected so accurately in Navani's own psyche years later, this alone makes Gavilar despicable.

[neshua_kadal]

10 hours ago, Hayama said:

His emotional and physical (not seen but mentioned) abuse of Navani firmly puts him in the evil camp to me. Having personally seen the long-term effects of such, and having it reflected so accurately in Navani's own psyche years later, this alone makes Gavilar despicable.

Oh that's true of course, I've seen this in my family as well, so no argument there. But a person who is an A to their family isn't necessarily also the super villain and commits every evil possible, that's what I was saying. Also as Navani mentioned, he changed and wasn't like that before. From my personal experience at least, I've never seen people go from good to evil like that. So there must be a reason he became that person. We know Jasnah would never have supported a person we saw through Navani's viewpoint ever, which meant Gavilar was a good guy at one point and then something happened. May be it was an unmade. Or maybe, he was trying to keep Navani at arm's length to keep her safe from getting entangled in all of it. It's just a theory, there's nothing to do until Wax and Wayne 4 comes out.

 

16 hours ago, kaellok said:

Secret societies gonna secret.  There's any number of reasons that mostly all boil down to different organizations want different things, even if they had been allies up until that point.  Maybe the Ghostbloods were only after proof of concept of an idea, and once that had been obtained, had no further use for the Sons of Honor and little wish for renewed conflict.  Maybe literally the only thing they cared about was getting the gem containing BAM, and seeding Roshar with voidspren was the price they had to pay, but then Gavilar reneged on the deal.  Maybe they wanted a return of the Heralds and Desolations and a final war that actually ends, but they didn't want Gavilar becoming an effectively immortal Cognitive Shadow.

Gavilar not mentioning BAM directly is somewhat interesting because his mention of the storm explicitly states that that is what will restore the minds to the Singers stuck in slave-form.  Which, given what we know of Kalak, doesn't seem like it would be the preferred method if they had it available; if nothing else, surely Amaram would have freed them if the gem was available.  I can kinda see an argument that Gavilar was after a Human v. Singer fight to extinction, and not concerned with Everstorm.  Given his sources of information, though, it's hard to realistically believe that he could separate them out.  And whether he was responsible for the Everstorm, I believe that he did plan on using it.

And I tend to give strongly worded replies, as I subscribe to the Assuredness Movement of scholars for myself (but hypocritically find fault with others for doing so, because in my infinite wisdom only I know the exact degree to which it is permissible), so want to call out specifically that I think it's great to look at things from different points of view than the prevailing theories or what seems to be suggested by the books.  There's a lot of misdirection going on that we experience because of the differing viewpoints.  It's wonderful and great, and could entirely be in keeping to slowly have our opinions shaped from Gavilar Is A Great Man shift to Gavilar Is Super Not Cool and then back to Gavilar Wasn't So Bad After All.

All of what you said could also be true, but Axindweth was committed until the very end to bring about the Everstorm, I don't think she backed out and that's what made Gavilar think of her as a traitor. The anti voidlight in Gavilar's possession also makes it clear that he wanted to end Fused. If Ulim was in cahoots with him, he would have know about anti-voidlight, and the whole Raboniel/Navani arc wouldn't have happened. Also the stormfather argument, as I said, there were a number of leaders he could have chosen from. Why Gavilar and then Dalinar? And if it were king of Alethkar reason, coz Alethkar is Alethela, then Elhokar should have been chosen afterwards. If we believe that Gavilar was indeed evil, then choosing Elhokar over him should have been easier as Elhokar was a good person, if a little misguided and stupid. And Gavilar could just be mentioning the storm that Tanavast talks about in these visions. I don't think he knew about Everstorm in Shadesmar. We'll know more once the next book comes out.

[Hayama]

12 hours ago, neshua_kadal said:

Oh that's true of course, I've seen this in my family as well, so no argument there. But a person who is an A to their family isn't necessarily also the super villain and commits every evil possible, that's what I was saying. Also as Navani mentioned, he changed and wasn't like that before. From my personal experience at least, I've never seen people go from good to evil like that. So there must be a reason he became that person. We know Jasnah would never have supported a person we saw through Navani's viewpoint ever, which meant Gavilar was a good guy at one point and then something happened. May be it was an unmade. Or maybe, he was trying to keep Navani at arm's length to keep her safe from getting entangled in all of it. It's just a theory, there's nothing to do until Wax and Wayne 4 comes out.

 

All of what you said could also be true, but Axindweth was committed until the very end to bring about the Everstorm, I don't think she backed out and that's what made Gavilar think of her as a traitor. The anti voidlight in Gavilar's possession also makes it clear that he wanted to end Fused. If Ulim was in cahoots with him, he would have know about anti-voidlight, and the whole Raboniel/Navani arc wouldn't have happened. Also the stormfather argument, as I said, there were a number of leaders he could have chosen from. Why Gavilar and then Dalinar? And if it were king of Alethkar reason, coz Alethkar is Alethela, then Elhokar should have been chosen afterwards. If we believe that Gavilar was indeed evil, then choosing Elhokar over him should have been easier as Elhokar was a good person, if a little misguided and stupid. And Gavilar could just be mentioning the storm that Tanavast talks about in these visions. I don't think he knew about Everstorm in Shadesmar. We'll know more once the next book comes out.

Yeah, I realize my reply is more of a hot take than an actual response to the discussion. I certainly don't think he was just trying to keep Navani at arm's length, though. He may very well have been being influenced by an Unmade, but I don't think it's just that. War changes a man, and so does discovering there is more out there, especially when that more are forces allowing one to become immortal and not only conquer Alethkar but far, far more than that. It's also possible that Navani has changed for the better over the years; we know Dalinar has. Our view is being tinted by the lens we're seeing him through; it could just be that it's less a change in Gavilar as it has been through Dalinar and Navani, at least partially. And the Stormfather is unlikely to know the type of man Gavilar really was - he'd just be able to see on the surface, I think, choosing the man that the rest of the world sees him as.

Gavilar having the anti-Voidlight doesn't really make anything clear, I don't think. In fact, it raises a lot more questions. Navani was only able to create it under strange conditions, and with the "help" of a Fused. I'd think anyone else creating it in that way would need the aid of a singer at the very least. Or are there other ways to create it?

[IndigoAjah]

On 23/11/2020 at 8:46 AM, neshua_kadal said:

So, does anyone else thinks that Gavilar wasn't actually looking towards bringing something like Everstorm, but just looking to free all singers from their bondage? As we know Restares is Kelek who, from the epigraphs, knew about the effect of Ba-ado-Mishram's imprisonment on Roshar and perhaps guessed that Radiants gave up their powers for this reason (probably) as they felt guilty for causing such drastic change to Roshar and its native population. So he decided to restore the singers and the only way to do that was to bring back Taln from Braize, thereby freeing fused and suing for peace. He had anti-voidlight already prepared and ready to destroy fused as a backup incase they don't work with him. It's such a marvel that we still can't figure out what Gavilar wanted. While he was an asshole towards his family, may be here he wanted to do something good. What do you people think?

Whether he had outright evil plans or not (I assume not, that he's had a decent plan at least that was either sabotaged by baddies or by mistaken goodies or because he had arrogantly missed how badly his plan would go), I'm confident, based on how he treats people, on saying he's a pretty crappy person. 

[mosaab]

The only person we see Gavilar mistreat was Navani. 

and she herself admits that she was just as hurtful in other arguments.

[neshua_kadal]

17 hours ago, Hayama said:

Yeah, I realize my reply is more of a hot take than an actual response to the discussion. I certainly don't think he was just trying to keep Navani at arm's length, though. He may very well have been being influenced by an Unmade, but I don't think it's just that. War changes a man, and so does discovering there is more out there, especially when that more are forces allowing one to become immortal and not only conquer Alethkar but far, far more than that. It's also possible that Navani has changed for the better over the years; we know Dalinar has. Our view is being tinted by the lens we're seeing him through; it could just be that it's less a change in Gavilar as it has been through Dalinar and Navani, at least partially. And the Stormfather is unlikely to know the type of man Gavilar really was - he'd just be able to see on the surface, I think, choosing the man that the rest of the world sees him as.

Gavilar having the anti-Voidlight doesn't really make anything clear, I don't think. In fact, it raises a lot more questions. Navani was only able to create it under strange conditions, and with the "help" of a Fused. I'd think anyone else creating it in that way would need the aid of a singer at the very least. Or are there other ways to create it?

Hmm yeah it could be that Navani and Dalinar have become beter versions of themselves. Regarding the SF's choice, I don't think that the spren only looked at the surface, or Syl would have gone for Amaram rather than Kaladin considering his talk of honor this and honor that. May be this is an extreme example, but we would have seen atleast some of neutral people becoming WRs. 

Gavilar having anti-voidlight doesn't prove one requires a singer. All the native rosharan creatures hear the tones of Roshar. And as we know, all singers except for listeners were blocked from the tones anyways, so I don't think he had a listener helper. It could have been a void-spren, as Ulim was able to attune the rhythms, but it seems unlikely that a void-spren of Odium would give such a weapon to Gavilar who was a potential bondsmith.

 

5 hours ago, IndigoAjah said:

Whether he had outright evil plans or not (I assume not, that he's had a decent plan at least that was either sabotaged by baddies or by mistaken goodies or because he had arrogantly missed how badly his plan would go), I'm confident, based on how he treats people, on saying he's a pretty crappy person. 

What people except Navani have we seen him mistreat? And even there, Navani said the change was quite recent. Yeah I think you're judging too quickly. He could be a crappy person, but he could be under some sort of influence too. We can't regard Roshar where supernatural forces have such a big hand on people's minds as our world. Anyways, I gave other arguments regarding his crappiness to Navani above, go through them and maybe you'll understand why it might have been something else.

[IndigoAjah]

5 hours ago, mosaab said:

The only person we see Gavilar mistreat was Navani. 

and she herself admits that she was just as hurtful in other arguments.

 

1) The way he treated Navani, which is actively and aggressively abusive in a truly horrific way, IS enough to judge him, frankly. He went out of his way to do things purely to hurt her, and the way he speaks to her is a way no person should ever get away with speaking to any other person, frankly, nevermind one you are supposed to care for. 

2) I don't think this is actually what she said at all. For one, though she admits to also hurting him, ln a section that I've seen resonate with multiple abused women, the idea that it's as bad as what we know he's done to her is simply not there. 

 

She reports him mistreating, at best neglecting, his children too, and we see his approach to Jasnah and Amaram, a man we know for sure, and it frankly seems bloody obvious to Jasnah at least as well, is an utter PoS 

On top of that, every bad thing that Dalinar regrets in himself was a thing he was used for, knowingly, by Gavilar. Gavilar follows the same "ends justify the means" approach as Amaram, and used it to justify brutal conquest.

 

He might think he's righteous but the more we learn about him the crappier he gets

[MONARCH]

Evil or good? Nah, he's just plain pathetic.

[MONARCH]

Szeth did Roshar a great favor in killing Gavilar.