Wit's Memories

[Trantor]

So at the end of RoW it seems that Todium stole/changed Wit's memories. It's unclear if Wit suspected anything. Is there any reason to think Wit could have access to Feruchemy and be able to have stored some of his memories in copper? Maybe even the coins he was playing with right before that exchange? That would make his whole speech about misdirection with the coins make a lot more sense. Thoughts?

[LifeBeforeDeath]

2 hours ago, Trantor said:

So at the end of RoW it seems that Todium stole/changed Wit's memories. It's unclear if Wit suspected anything. Is there any reason to think Wit could have access to Feruchemy and be able to have stored some of his memories in copper? Maybe even the coins he was playing with right before that exchange? That would make his whole speech about misdirection with the coins make a lot more sense. Thoughts?

He'd have to have access to some Bands of Mourning-type metalminds to do that...It might be plausible for him to have that, since he's Wit, but the fact that he stores his memories in Breaths suggests that he does not. Nice idea, though!

[Forest Nymphomaniac]

 

 

17 hours ago, LifeBeforeDeath said:

He'd have to have access to some Bands of Mourning-type metalminds to do that...It might be plausible for him to have that, since he's Wit, but the fact that he stores his memories in Breaths suggests that he does not. Nice idea, though!

Mistborn Era 2 Spoiler:

Spoiler

Did Hoid not give Wax an unsealed metalmind in Era 2?

---

Edited November 24, 2020 by Forest Nymphomaniac

[Shuffel]

20 hours ago, Trantor said:

So at the end of RoW it seems that Todium stole/changed Wit's memories. It's unclear if Wit suspected anything. Is there any reason to think Wit could have access to Feruchemy and be able to have stored some of his memories in copper? Maybe even the coins he was playing with right before that exchange? That would make his whole speech about misdirection with the coins make a lot more sense. Thoughts?

I think you are right. Hoid stored his real memories in the coins (metal mind). Can gods see metal?

His trap memories were in the breaths.

[Govir]

12 hours ago, Shuffel said:

I think you are right. Hoid stored his real memories in the coins (metal mind). Can gods see metal?

Mistborn Era 1

Spoiler

Yes. Ruin is explicitly stated as able to alter memories stored in a Coppermind. And afaik, gods can *see* metal, it's just very bright to them. Large amounts (like around the Pits) can make it hard for them to see details of what's going on in that area.

It seems like Wit was holding excess memories in Breath, probably in a similar manner to a coppermind. This doesn't rule out the idea of storing in copper as well, but I think both storage areas would be susceptible to Tod's view and tampering.

[StormingTexan]

14 minutes ago, Govir said:

Mistborn Era 1

  Hide contents

Yes. Ruin is explicitly stated as able to alter memories stored in a Coppermind. And afaik, gods can *see* metal, it's just very bright to them. Large amounts (like around the Pits) can make it hard for them to see details of what's going on in that area.

It seems like Wit was holding excess memories in Breath, probably in a similar manner to a coppermind. This doesn't rule out the idea of storing in copper as well, but I think both storage areas would be susceptible to Tod's view and tampering.

Would the coppermind be visible if it was not on Hoid's body though? 

Quote

 

Ah … he thought. He’d been expecting this; it was why he had left the tower, after all. Odium couldn’t find him there. He hiked to Elhokar’s former sitting room and made himself available—visible, easy to reach.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

I just do not see the motivation of Hoid doing this besides some form of miss-direction but maybe reading too far in to it. 

[Forest Nymphomaniac]

14 hours ago, Shuffel said:

I think you are right. Hoid stored his real memories in the coins (metal mind). Can gods see metal?

His trap memories were in the breaths.

and that's why he thinks something off with his perfect putch, he won't remember  his trap till he taps the metalminds and WAIT

Spoiler

WIT IS MISTBORN I FORGOT. 

edit: nevermind that would need feruchemy I haven't had my coffee

Edited November 24, 2020 by Forest Nymphomaniac

[Naerin]

To be honest, I hope that Hoid wasn't able to somehow trick or misdirect Todium in this scene. Part of the impact of this scene is that we have never before seen Hoid seriously pressured or frightened or outwitted. He always comes across as more or less in control of whatever situation he's in, and several steps ahead of what anyone else is thinking. And that makes sense. He's an immortal being with who knows how much experience. So of course it's going to be rare that he's genuinely surprised or faced with unexpected setbacks. 

So seeing him afraid in this scene. Seeing him fooled (at least on the second run-through). That was SO powerful. And it really sold Todium as a serious threat. It made him feel new, distinct, and more dangerous than the previous version of Odium. If Hoid is still one step ahead, the way he seems to be with everyone else (even other Shards, like Harmony), then I'm going to be disappointed and retroactively less invested in Todium as a villain. 

As for the significance of Hoid's misdirection speech, I imagine he was referring to keeping Rayse's attention on him in some way. From the interaction he expected, it seems like he was counting on Rayse being focused on finding a way to destroy Hoid and beat Dalinar. I'm guessing that he wanted to keep Rayse thinking in those blunt "I will DESTROY you" terms, rather than thinking about potential loopholes or exploits in the contract (which Todium has apparently perceived). I think Hoid included the provision protecting himself in the contract so that Rodium would focus on that, and maybe miss more subtle things about the wording that Todium has picked up on. 

[Shuffel]

6 hours ago, Naerin said:

To be honest, I hope that Hoid wasn't able to somehow trick or misdirect Todium in this scene. Part of the impact of this scene is that we have never before seen Hoid seriously pressured or frightened or outwitted. He always comes across as more or less in control of whatever situation he's in, and several steps ahead of what anyone else is thinking. And that makes sense. He's an immortal being with who knows how much experience. So of course it's going to be rare that he's genuinely surprised or faced with unexpected setbacks. 

So seeing him afraid in this scene. Seeing him fooled (at least on the second run-through). That was SO powerful. And it really sold Todium as a serious threat. It made him feel new, distinct, and more dangerous than the previous version of Odium. If Hoid is still one step ahead, the way he seems to be with everyone else (even other Shards, like Harmony), then I'm going to be disappointed and retroactively less invested in Todium as a villain. 

As for the significance of Hoid's misdirection speech, I imagine he was referring to keeping Rayse's attention on him in some way. From the interaction he expected, it seems like he was counting on Rayse being focused on finding a way to destroy Hoid and beat Dalinar. I'm guessing that he wanted to keep Rayse thinking in those blunt "I will DESTROY you" terms, rather than thinking about potential loopholes or exploits in the contract (which Todium has apparently perceived). I think Hoid included the provision protecting himself in the contract so that Rodium would focus on that, and maybe miss more subtle things about the wording that Todium has picked up on. 

I have a question. Hoid must know that Odium could mess with his memories. Messing with memories isn't jsut something Tarvagian could do is it? Why wouldn't he protect his memories? Putting your memories in to a giant ball of invesiture doesn't seem subtle. Seems like a God can see that. Putting your memories into metal, well that we aren't sure if a God can see or not.

Further more the scene sells Todium as a villian either way, it's inconclusive to who is right and who is wrong, i believe the scene was made to be vague like that. I have a feeling when we find out in the future, it will be Hoid who gets the better of the exchange, and this could be end of book 10 type of thing.

 

[Govir]

5 hours ago, Shuffel said:

Hoid must know that Odium could mess with his memories.

Hoid knows Odium can, but doesn’t think Ryse will think to do it because his hatred for Hoid makes him singleminded.

[Michael Portz]

6 hours ago, Shuffel said:

I have a question. Hoid must know that Odium could mess with his memories. Messing with memories isn't jsut something Tarvagian could do is it? Why wouldn't he protect his memories? Putting your memories in to a giant ball of invesiture doesn't seem subtle. Seems like a God can see that. Putting your memories into metal, well that we aren't sure if a God can see or not.

Well ... I come back thinking about ... (Mistborn Spoilers ahead)

Spoiler

... how the Lord Ruler had all the power to save Scadrial but could not in the longterm and how Sazed, who had the power AND THE KNOWLEDGE could.

Can we have the same situation here? I.e. that Taravangian just is a very intelligent and knowing person, where Rayse might have just been a simple minded one, and that that more than the power defined their abilities?

So Hoid had perhaps just prepared for the wrong adversary.

 

Having seem how Brandon again and again tries to incorporate modern concepts in math, physics etc. into his storytelling, I would guess that Hoid will have a way to failsafe store his memories and already did so. This failsafe might not be available at once, but when going into restore mode he will notice and perhaps even correct the damage done.

What bothers me more is the concept of the storage. The altered memory as we actually see it is only the one about very recent events. You usually don't put this short term stuff into external storage.

 

[+Oltux72]

On 23.11.2020 at 9:00 AM, LifeBeforeDeath said:

He'd have to have access to some Bands of Mourning-type metalminds to do that...It might be plausible for him to have that, since he's Wit, but the fact that he stores his memories in Breaths suggests that he does not. Nice idea, though!

Well, those are his memories and he'd have one shot and one shot only. If you mess this up you have damaged your mind and hence the thing you absolutely need to fix such damage. He was present at the Catacendre which was only about three undred years ago. His current method has an order of magnitude more testing and was designed by a Shard for sustaining immortal beings. Changing stuff without testing is dangerous.

[Trutharchivist]

Look, all of us (except maybe Naerin) want to believe Hoid wasn't tricked. Thing is, only two things we know of are completely shard-safe: normal human memories, not stored as investiture in any way, and writings set on metal. Hoid might've felt that things are a little off, but he probably couldn't know what exactly it was. 

Besides, I get what Naerin says: the fact Todium is one step ahead of Hoid makes him far scarier, which sort of adds to this story. I, personally, was terrified when I read the epilog. 

[Infinity Sliver]

5 hours ago, Trutharchivist said:

Look, all of us (except maybe Naerin) want to believe Hoid wasn't tricked. Thing is, only two things we know of are completely shard-safe: normal human memories, not stored as investiture in any way, and writings set on metal. Hoid might've felt that things are a little off, but he probably couldn't know what exactly it was. 

Besides, I get what Naerin says: the fact Todium is one step ahead of Hoid makes him far scarier, which sort of adds to this story. I, personally, was terrified when I read the epilog. 

I'm with Naerin on this one

And didnt Cultivation mess with Dalinar's memories? those weren't stored as investiture.

And Warbreaker Spoilers

Spoiler

I'm sure Vasher can also mess with memories. Remember his fight with denth where he offered to alter his memory? and also the daughter of that high priest he saved from Denth's men where he altered her memory.(I understand Vasher isnt a Shard)

Oh,Endowment alters memories too right?

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Infinitysliver

[Trutharchivist]

Maybe they need agreement from the patient.

6 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

And Warbreaker Spoilers( I dunno how to do the spoiler Tag)

Spoiler tags are created by clicking on the eye symbol - you can edit your post so that the spoiler would be inside a spoiler tag.

[Infinity Sliver]

2 minutes ago, Trutharchivist said:

Spoiler tags are created by clicking on the eye symbol - you can edit your post so that the spoiler would be inside a spoiler tag.

One mystery solved,thanks so much

[AlejandroTeodoro]

9 hours ago, Michael Portz said:

Well ... I come back thinking about ... (Mistborn Spoilers ahead)

  Reveal hidden contents

... how the Lord Ruler had all the power to save Scadrial but could not in the longterm and how Sazed, who had the power AND THE KNOWLEDGE could.

Can we have the same situation here? I.e. that Taravangian just is a very intelligent and knowing person, where Rayse might have just been a simple minded one, and that that more than the power defined their abilities?

I disagree with the opinion that lot of people start to have about Rayse being simple or simpler than BigT.

We are talking about Rayse/Odium who killed and splitter 4 shards!! When we know how difficult is to destroy other shard and not to die like Vin/Cultivation.

About Rayse Hoid told in one of the letters that he is one of the most dangerous person Hoid has ever known. 

That he got kill in a kind of trap of Cultivation and he was kind of weak for his previous fights does not mean that he was not clever, he almost achieves  to break first Dalinar and then Kaladin and bring them to his side. 2 of the most noble characters I have seen.

Taravangian was clever due to Cultivation “boon”. We should not assume him being clever than Rayse.

What we should assume is that new Vessels seems to have less restrictions than old ones, at least in the first moments. And what make Taravangian scary is that maybe he will not need to respond “in spirit” to whatever was  holding Rayse as Odium

[Infinity Sliver]

10 minutes ago, AlejandroTeodoro said:

I disagree with the opinion that lot of people start to have about Rayse being simple or simpler than BigT.

We are talking about Rayse/Odium who killed and splitter 4 shards!! When we know how difficult is to destroy other shard and not to die like Vin/Cultivation.

About Rayse Hoid told in one of the letters that he is one of the most dangerous person Hoid has ever known. 

That he got kill in a kind of trap of Cultivation and he was kind of weak for his previous fights does not mean that he was not clever, he almost achieves  to break first Dalinar and then Kaladin and bring them to his side. 2 of the most noble characters I have seen.

Taravangian was clever due to Cultivation “boon”. We should not assume him being clever than Rayse.

What we should assume is that new Vessels seems to have less restrictions than old ones, at least in the first moments. And what make Taravangian scary is that maybe he will not need to respond “in spirit” to whatever was  holding Rayse as Odium

I agree with this,For Wit to say someone is dangerous is to assume they are dangerous. I think what makes Taravangian more deadly is the fact that he is newly ascended and not fully corrupted by the intent but we got to see a taste of what he wanted when he met Cultivation and even been new to his powers was able to fiddle with Wit. 

Sidenote: I think cultivation might have had an answer for Evil T with Lift

[ShardplateJoe III]

I think another important detail that is being missed is that Wit was truly scared when he raised that Todium was messing with his Breaths. 

Quote

For the first time in a long, long while, Wit felt true terror. If Odium destroyed the Breaths that held his memories …

ROW Epilogue

I don't think that Hoid came out on top in this situation, and he won't know something is wrong for a long time. 

I wouldn't be surprised if Wit had a way to store his memories in a failsafe off world or something, but for the time being something terrible has happened, and Wit has finally been bested.

[Michael Portz]

1 hour ago, AlejandroTeodoro said:

I disagree with the opinion that lot of people start to have about Rayse being simple or simpler than BigT.

We are talking about Rayse/Odium who killed and splitter 4 shards!! When we know how difficult is to destroy other shard and not to die like Vin/Cultivation.

About Rayse Hoid told in one of the letters that he is one of the most dangerous person Hoid has ever known. 

That he got kill in a kind of trap of Cultivation and he was kind of weak for his previous fights does not mean that he was not clever, he almost achieves  to break first Dalinar and then Kaladin and bring them to his side. 2 of the most noble characters I have seen.

Taravangian was clever due to Cultivation “boon”. We should not assume him being clever than Rayse.

What we should assume is that new Vessels seems to have less restrictions than old ones, at least in the first moments. And what make Taravangian scary is that maybe he will not need to respond “in spirit” to whatever was  holding Rayse as Odium

I think ruthless and brutal and egomaniac and incredibly powerful is enough to be as dangerous as Hoid says. You neither need to add "intelligent" to that nor can imply "intelligence" from it.

But even that is besides the point, because I was only referring to the manipulation of Hoids memory and only that and was trying to explain, why Hoid apparently did not expect Rayse to be able to do so, or -attention, new idea- it all was a bait to see HOW intelligent the current vessel of Odium actually was.

Moreover I think that Mr. T is quite intelligent and knowledgeable even without the Boon-Burst :-)

[DiePie]

1 hour ago, Infinitysliver said:

And didnt Cultivation mess with Dalinar's memories? those weren't stored as investiture.

If I'm remembering correctly Cultivation was only able to block Dalinar's memories, not truly remove them. Which is why Odium would have been able to "give them back" to Dalinar, had Cultivation not done it themselves.

 

1 hour ago, Infinitysliver said:

And Warbreaker Spoilers

  Hide contents

I'm sure Vasher can also mess with memories. Remember his fight with denth where he offered to alter his memory? and also the daughter of that high priest he saved from Denth's men where he altered her memory.(I understand Vasher isnt a Shard)

Oh,Endowment alters memories too right?

 

We were actually shown him doing this in Warbreaker, it though it wasn't him doing it, it was the girl who did it to herself.

 

Also, when vessels ascend to being a shard, their minds are expanded in order to comprehend all of the new facets of godhood, and with that in mind I think that being smarter or more intelligent would give only the most minuscule advantage to the vessel of a shard. What seems to matter is a Shard's craftiness. Instead of raw intelligence being important, it's a shard's ability to use it. While Rayse was obviously crafty (he killed 4 shards), Todd is probably more so. Even as his intelligence declined, he was still trying to maneuver Nightblood into a vision with Odium, simply because he heard somewhere once that Odium was scared of the sword, and his knowledge of how dangerous it was.

[Infinity Sliver]

3 minutes ago, DiePie said:

If I'm remembering correctly Cultivation was only able to block Dalinar's memories, not truly remove them. Which is why Odium would have been able to "give them back" to Dalinar, had Cultivation not done it themselves.

That's still a shard messing with memories that isn't investiture though. 

 

We were actually shown him doing this in Warbreaker, it though it wasn't him doing it, it was the girl who did it to herself.

But Vasher still had a hand in it

 

 

 

[DiePie]

Quote

That's still a shard messing with memories that isn't investiture though. 

My point is that Cultivation is messing with Dalinar's Connection to the memories not the memories themselves, which is irrelevant either way because Tod is trying to avoid his oath to not hurt Wit, and the wording in the book seems to imply that messing with memories (or their relationship with a person) would break that oath (which seems to be to not hurt Hoid, probably similar to Hoid's own oath of non-violence)

Quote

But Vasher still had a hand in it

The way I always interpreted it was that Vasher only showed her how to, not that he did it himself

[LordTheodore]

20 hours ago, Shuffel said:

I have a question. Hoid must know that Odium could mess with his memories. Messing with memories isn't jsut something Tarvagian could do is it? Why wouldn't he protect his memories? Putting your memories in to a giant ball of invesiture doesn't seem subtle. Seems like a God can see that. Putting your memories into metal, well that we aren't sure if a God can see or not.

Well Taravangian only messed with Hoid's memories so that Hoid would still believe that Rayse is Odium's Vessel. I find it plausible that Hoid wouldn't expect Rayse to mess with his memories especially since he knows that Rayse loves to brag and show off. Bragging is most satisfying when the person your bragging to has all the knowledge required to understand why your so awesome. I honestly think Rayse would find it unsatisfying to beat Hoid because he destroyed his memories.

[GoddessIMHO]

But we don't know exactly what Todium did. He "said" he could read Wit's memory without "hurting" him which got around the contract. But Wit has lost enough Breath to no longer have perfect pitch. That implies that Todium didn't read the memory, he took some breaths. So far, With doesn't know and it depresses me. Maybe Jashna will realise somehtng isn't right and he will learn that way.