megafox

So why was Rayse rejected by his power?

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So it seems clear in WoR that Rayse was losing control of his power. It is mentioned by the texts from Sazed, power can be seen to be leaking out of him in his discussions with Dalinar and Taravangian, and Sja-Anat is actively working against him.

The question though is, why?

Was Rayse acting against his Intent? The only thing I can think of was his insistence that his was the shard of Passion, which would then be against the Intent of the shard, however it seemed to me that he was still acting pretty Odious.

Any ideas what caused Rayse's rejection by Odium?

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20 minutes ago, megafox said:

Was Rayse acting against his Intent? The only thing I can think of was his insistence that his was the shard of Passion, which would then be against the Intent of the shard, however it seemed to me that he was still acting pretty Odious.

My guess would be that he wanted to control people and take their pain - promoting apathy rather than hatred or passion. What happened to the Fused is an excellent example - they're just tired or broken rather than eager for war

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He wasn't acting. He made a deal for a contest of Champions with Dalinar, and although he never explicitly broke his word, he dithered on it for a year, never setting terms and avoiding Dalinar. That, combined with his loss of the tower, made the power work against him.

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I wonder if his constant failures were causing him to leak power, or if  leaking power was causing him to constantly fail. 

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He wanted to make intelligent plans that pursued long term goals.  The shard Odium wanted to DESTROY RIGHT NOW.  This arrangement worked fine as long as they were touring the cosmere and shattering shards with glee.  The longer Odium was held in captivity by Honor in Roshar though, the less capable Rayse was of maintaining control over the impulses of his shard.

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I think Rayse was working against the Shard. I think the Shard's Intent is Passion, but that Rayse, for some reason, was only allowing the Passion of hate, aka Odium.

This idea comes from all the times the Fused talked about various emotions being "worthy Passions", but not all such passions are acceptable nowadays. We also see in Sja-Anat's interlude that the Shard likes questions, while Rayse does not, with the Shard calling questions a Passion. Rayse could have many reasons to go against his Intent:

He was perpetuating a grudge against the other Shards.

He thinks all emotions are weak except anger and hate.

He wanted to be the only God and use his "evil" Intent as an excuse.

Whatever the reason is, I think Rayse believes his Intent is Odium or is pretending his Intent is Odium, when it is actually Passion.

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29 minutes ago, Weux082690 said:

I think Rayse was working against the Shard. I think the Shard's Intent is Passion, but that Rayse, for some reason, was only allowing the Passion of hate, aka Odium.

This idea comes from all the times the Fused talked about various emotions being "worthy Passions", but not all such passions are acceptable nowadays. We also see in Sja-Anat's interlude that the Shard likes questions, while Rayse does not, with the Shard calling questions a Passion. Rayse could have many reasons to go against his Intent:

He was perpetuating a grudge against the other Shards.

He thinks all emotions are weak except anger and hate.

He wanted to be the only God and use his "evil" Intent as an excuse.

Whatever the reason is, I think Rayse believes his Intent is Odium or is pretending his Intent is Odium, when it is actually Passion.

The problem with this though is that when Taravangian ascends he describes it as fury and hate. I used to believe that Odium wasn't just Odium but this character perspective kind of makes that unlikely

Edited by StanLemon
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41 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

The problem with this though is that when Taravangian ascends he describes it as fury and hate. I used to believe that Odium wasn't just Odium but this character perspective kind of makes that unlikely

The quote from the book is:

Quote

the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound.

This does make it seem like the Shard's Intent leans heavily on the fury/hatred side of things, but all passions seem to fall under it. Also, in the previous chapter, when Taravangian first feels a Connection to the Shard's power, he says it is because he is all passion today. Perhaps the Shard's Intent is Odium, but not as heavily full of hate as Rayse liked to pretend, instead all passions and passionate people are linked to Odium.

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I think it was due to Rayse being unable to execute his intent. He got trapped , then his plans failed, the he had to take a deal he hated. 

His actions made him disconnect from the power. It seems both action and intent is necessary. 

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I also take from this what Navani uncovers, and from the tone that Eshonai sings in her final chapter:

1. Honor's tone: calm, structured, orderly, and powerful. Capturing a journey, moving forward, ever organized by oaths and progress.

2. Odium's tone: chaotic, angry, but with an underlying logic. Capturing the "burden of god's own divine hatred" bent on chaos. 

3. Cultivation's tone: energy, growth and change. Capturing change and progress in a more natural, boundless way. 

I figure as these tones are the key to the investiture, that they probably captured the Intent of each. 

I think Rayse was trying to be too orderly--too strategic, and to focus on dominion more than pure emotional chaos. The power didn't seem to like it when he imposed his will on Sja-Anat instead of embracing her emotion and her "passion". 

It also makes me wonder though, if T won't have the same problem in the end. he, too, is trying to "save them all". But is that too much of his own will? Then again, it'll probably take thousands more years before it breaks him apart too. 

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15 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I think Rayse was trying to be too orderly--too strategic, and to focus on dominion more than pure emotional chaos. The power didn't seem to like it when he imposed his will on Sja-Anat instead of embracing her emotion and her "passion". 

Absolutely agree. I also think that the failure and inaction itself is anathema to Odium's intent, and the recurring setbacks made Rayse increasingly undeserving.

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The Rhythm of War. The more Odium embraced his Intent, the more he locked himself into battle with Tanavast embracing his Intent. To break out of the cycle, Odium had to temporarily break from his Intent. Tanavast managed to infuse enough Honor into his preparations for death (with some help from Cultivation) to foil this plan (climaxed by the "WE KILLED YOU" scene). This left Odium with the choice to continue his plans or go back to his Intent. In continuing his plans, he lost control of his Shard.

Odium's prison isn't just the Oathpact. It's also a cycle of Hate and Honor. He has to meet Honor with Hatred to fulfill his Intent. However, that Hatred is met with more Honor. And "Honor isn't dead as long as it lives in the hearts of men!"

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It is noticeable how much his control degraded just over the course of the book.

My hope is that he was breaking a cosmic rule in hijacking Kaladin’s dreams via Moash, and that weakened him.

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I feel like the issue is that Rayse's mind and Odium's Intent had a small disconnect. Odium seems to be the fury of seeing that which shouldn't be, and the passion that leads you to change flawed things for the better. It's very similar to *Dawnshard Spoilers*

Spoiler

The Change Dawnshard being the Command to see that which is, and remake it, to make things better.

But Rayse was never about righteous fury. His fury was more focused on destroying anything that might hurt or oppose him, so that he could be the only one. He hated the things that could hurt him or the things that weren't himself. And while he was able to keep himself in check by only going after the Shards that had technically violated the rules, thus appeasing the Intent of his power, his failures told the power that Rayse wasn't the best match. It's similar to one of the epigraphs from Harmony in the book, where Harmony says that on his world, a Shard would always try to find a new Vessel. 

That's what I think, anyways. :)

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Upon Ascending, Taravangian sees this as what had been the state of affairs with Odium:

Quote

He saw that his predecessor had been sliding toward oblivion for a long, long time. Weakened by his battles in the past, then deeply wounded by Honor, this being had been enslaved by the power. Failing to claim Dalinar, then losing the tower and Stormblessed, had left the being frail. Vulnerable.

But the power was anything but frail.

What I read into that last phrase is that the Shard of Odium is not reduced in strength, not like in Mistborn Era 1 when Ruin had a big chunk missing from Preservation's little maneuver. It was not Odium but "his predecessor", Rayse the Vessel, who had been "weakened by his battles in the past" (with Ambition, Devotion, and Dominion), "then deeply wounded by Honor" (who didn't go down quietly), and also "failing to claim Dalinar, then losing the tower and Stormblessed" - evidently Rayse had invested something of himself in all of those things, it was something he (Rayse) wanted (as a "how") more so than the Shardic Intent ("the what and the why").

I think this is a hint as to what will eventually be revealed as to how exactly Raysodium managed to splinter those other Shards, and how he planned to go up against Harmony the Double Shard at some point, where a WoB drew an analogy between Vin and Elend from Mistborn. Vin would win in a fight despite the disparity in "power level" because she is a fighter by nature, and Elend is not.

So Rayse evidently had a way to go Vessel-to-Vessel without some kind of mutual Shardic Annihilation thing happening (maybe because those Shards were not diametrically opposite to Odium the way that P&R were) and thereby prevailed, but not without taking on damage.

The fact that his failed attempts to capture Dalinar, Urithiru, and Kaladin had also weakened his grip on the Shard is interesting. It may have something to do with whatever Honor and Cultivation did to bind him to the Rosharan system. That binding is still operating on Odium - it wasn't on Rayse as a Vessel - but all those attempts were some kind of move towards a "victory condition" we haven't fully seen yet as readers, and maybe he was only allowed a certain number of moves before having to drop the Shard or something? Wow, that would be interesting.

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I am starting to think that it could be because Rayse was losing interest in the fight in general. As the shard of Odium is all about the rage to fight and struggle maybe it was his frustration with the battle, so much that he was willing to accept the deal with Dalinar, that made his power rebel.

Rayse's desire to stop fighting and leave Roshar goes against Odium's desire to fight to the bitter end.

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On 11/22/2020 at 5:25 PM, signspace13 said:

He wasn't acting. He made a deal for a contest of Champions with Dalinar, and although he never explicitly broke his word, he dithered on it for a year, never setting terms and avoiding Dalinar. That, combined with his loss of the tower, made the power work against him.

Oh, very cool idea. Maybe that’s not even just his power that would have done that, but something about the Shards as a whole. He said he’d keep an agreement in spirit, but he was trying really hard not to do so, so that could be breaking him away from his power if that’s something that the Shards have built into them as a rule of divinity, or whatever.

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I recently heard some speculation that part of it was that Odium was trying to force the power into a mild it didn't fit and it was fighting him. Rated wanted the power to be Passion, to encompass all of the strong emotions of Sapients, but it isn't. It is Hatred. It doesn't care about those other emotions, it is about retribution, disdain, resentment and vengeance.

And Rayse wasn't doing those things. He was beaten over and over, but he didn't hate, he schemed.

Edited by signspace13
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1 hour ago, signspace13 said:

I recently heard some speculation that part of it was that Odium was trying to force the power into a mild it didn't fit and it was fighting him. Rated wanted the power to be Passion, to encompass all of the strong emotions of Sapients, but it isn't. It is Hatred. It doesn't care about those other emotions, it is about retribution, disdain, resentment and vengeance.

And Rayse wasn't doing those things. He was beaten over and over, but he didn't hate, he schemed.

Interesting for me to read this, as I had a somewhat different view of this: Rayse to me, was *too* focused on megalomania and victory. He wants absolute and unquestioning loyalty from his subject. He acts almost like a Dominion/Majesty shard. There is a scene in RoW where he is questioned by a minion, and it is made clear that while Rayse despises this act, the Shard likes it

So to me Rayse was too focused on his own ego and being the center of everything. He wanted to be responsible for everything - every victory, every defeat - as seen in his offer to take the pain from Dalinar. That's certainly part of Odium, but it's a just a facet. A shard wants the world to reflect it's intent (we see this very clearly on Scadrial and Nalthis). Rayse seemed to be hostile towards everything and everyone - to the degree where he did not tolerate many of the passions.

I do think Odium cares about passions - Hatred is just the strongest. It also carees about those passions in others, and probably with same priorities - you can love it, fear it or (preferably) hate it (which makes it odious, incidentally) - but respect it? Worship it? Rayse seemed to crave respect, and that's not very passionate. Odium isn't Grandeur or Majesty, and Rayse was at times almost acting like his was Dominion. I wonder if he perhaps wanted that shard originally, and got Odium when he couldn't have his true wish.

Also, it almost feels like Rayse was corrupted by Honor (orderly conflict and regality) and Cultivation (corruption of heroes and recruiting/training strong armies). As for Taravangian - he is weird, because his Boon makes him perfect and rather incompatible (coldly calculating, scheming, impassionate, cynical) at the same time. I suspect that he is unable to see this himself, as he was all passion when he ascended, but somehow gained full passion and full intellect afterwards. I'm not sure the shard likes the other half that suddenly appeared.

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On 11/24/2020 at 1:07 PM, SirWolfe said:

Odium seems to be the fury of seeing that which shouldn't be, and the passion that leads you to change flawed things for the better.

I like this. It helps explain why the Shard would like questioning orders, and why confusion is a worthy Passion, and various hints like that. But it allows the Intent to still be Odium. It also lines up with the "divine fury" aspect of Odium.

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On 11/22/2020 at 10:04 PM, StanLemon said:

The problem with this though is that when Taravangian ascends he describes it as fury and hate. I used to believe that Odium wasn't just Odium but this character perspective kind of makes that unlikely

Yes, exactly.  When Taravangian Ascends he specifically mentions that hate. It is the overriding “Passion” of Odium.  That’s made explicitly clear.  

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On 11/25/2020 at 7:17 AM, Golstar said:

Interesting for me to read this, as I had a somewhat different view of this: Rayse to me, was *too* focused on megalomania and victory. He wants absolute and unquestioning loyalty from his subject. He acts almost like a Dominion/Majesty shard. There is a scene in RoW where he is questioned by a minion, and it is made clear that while Rayse despises this act, the Shard likes it

So to me Rayse was too focused on his own ego and being the center of everything. He wanted to be responsible for everything - every victory, every defeat - as seen in his offer to take the pain from Dalinar. That's certainly part of Odium, but it's a just a facet. A shard wants the world to reflect it's intent (we see this very clearly on Scadrial and Nalthis). Rayse seemed to be hostile towards everything and everyone - to the degree where he did not tolerate many of the passions.

Yeah, I totally agree with this, the Sja-Anat interlude where that happens helps confirm it: Rayse cared too much about control and winning and loyalty, and while he talked the talk about passions, he was hypocritical about them and suppressed the passions of his subordinates. 

I don't know if Moash will still be a champion of Taravangian, but we see in him the totality of the passionless void thing that Rayse was pushing, which (to me) seems to be completely at odds with the "God's Divine Fury" intent of the Shard.

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14 minutes ago, lonola said:

Yeah, I totally agree with this, the Sja-Anat interlude where that happens helps confirm it: Rayse cared too much about control and winning and loyalty, and while he talked the talk about passions, he was hypocritical about them and suppressed the passions of his subordinates. 

I don't know if Moash will still be a champion of Taravangian, but we see in him the totality of the passionless void thing that Rayse was pushing, which (to me) seems to be completely at odds with the "God's Divine Fury" intent of the Shard.

Yeah, Rayse took his passion. When he loses his connection briefly, the passion (and negative emotions) return and it has a devastating effect. So Rayse was effectively doing the reverse of what Vessels/Shards normally do - making the world mirror their intent. He is infinite - why would he need the passions of a mortal? He almost seemed to have a some weird complex of wanting to be the only truly passionate entity in existence. He was narcissistic to the extreme in how he dealt with mortals.

I can't help but speculate that he originally wanted the Dominion Shard, but got Odium instead, which made him bitter, hateful and increasingly incompatible with the Odium he probably did exemplify when he was denied his desired Shard (assuming this hypothesis for a moment). I look forward to seeing what actually transpired at (and after) the shattering if Brandon ever decides to tell that story.

I know this hypothesis goes somewhat against some of the things we're told about Rayse and how he chose his Shard, but I still think those words might obscure the fact that he chose it after being denied something else. He also has this interesting line: "know pain. I am the only god who does. The only one who cares." That sounds very bitter to me.

Edited by Golstar
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Odium is not a shard of pure passion though. No matter what Rayse said. And we know that Rayse chose this path/shard as well per Hoid’s letter. So I’m thinking it’s less the “passion” thing and more the veering away from pure hatred/chaos thing that matters.

I often hearken back to the “weight of God’s own divine hatred,” divorced from the context which tempered it. So what does “god” hate? Perhaps human frailty and human weakness, anger at those who thwart him, hatred of murder and lust and covetousness. But without the other shards as context, perhaps it’s just seething anger and resentment? Perhaps that’s why it liked Sja-Anat’s “passion” because it was directed via her resentment at Odium’s restrictions? Maybe that’s why the thrill feeds on the kill...and maybe that’s why odium felt the need to spin that intent into a separate unmade? Because it clouded his ability to strategize?

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4 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I often hearken back to the “weight of God’s own divine hatred,” divorced from the context which tempered it. So what does “god” hate? 

Being ignored and denied, perhaps? He seems to have been very in tune with that part of a wrathful divine being, he just seemed to have taken a bit too far into domination territory. When Odium was denied two champions in a row and failed to exact retribution, that makes him an impotent god. One who exacts divine hatred on those who deny it - but then fails to affect anything.

For me this aspect fits well with "weight" - as it's a difficult intent to embody. He needs to demand worship and attention, but he also needs to punish when denied, but also needs to not become a solipsistic god. So he needs to demand everything while not being petty. He needs to punish, and never fail. It's a heavy burden - filled with pain and negative emotions. Always unfulfilled in a sense. It's going to take a really exceptional individual to carry that Shard and not eventually self-destruct. I've never seen Rayse/Odium in this tragic light before. Thanks!

Edited by Golstar
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