theory Lights, Intents and physics

[KandraAllomancer]

I believe that the behavior of different Lights, their combinations and anti-Lights can be easily described using simple physics analogies.

Shardic Intents are pure states, that, like quantum states, can be added together in any proportions, creating custom Intents / Rhythms.

The easiest examples are Investitures of two different Shards mixed in 50%-50% proportions e.g. Harmony (ettmetal) = Ruin + Preservation, War (Warlight) = Honor + Odium, Science (Towerlight) = Honor + Cultivation

Rosharan spren are different mixes of X% Honor + Y% Cultivation, where X and Y add up to 100. This would, fortunately, make creating custom anti-Lights rather difficult.

Anti-Lights are Investitures of opposing Intents, for example Ruin and Preservation. As Odium seems to lack a directly opposing Shard, anti-Voidlight is some combination of other Intents that doesn't occur naturally. I would assume some mix of Honor, Devotion and maybe Dominion (since they share the Unity theme) and maybe others, mixed in the exact proportions that create the Rhythm exactly opposing that of Odium.

With this assumption, two planets of Cosmere (Scadrial and Roshar) correspond nicely to the behavior of two types of hadron particles: mesons and baryons.

Mesons are built from a quark and an anti-quark and are inherently unstable. Ruin and Preservation's Investitures being their own anti-Investitures explains a lot: the explosion of power that kills Vin and Ati, Ati being unable to splinter Preservation to Khriss' confusion, mists avoiding hemalurgic spikes. Ettmetal exists only because both powers are held by one individual, and, as mesons, is extremely unstable.

Baryons are made of three quarks, so neither can each other's anti-quark. They are bound together in a way that makes them confined together: pulling one quark would require more and more power the further you take it from the particle. It is exactly the same behavior that seems to bind Odium to Braize and H&C to Roshar, the latter described exactly by Mraize in his talk with Shallan

Edited November 22, 2020 by KandraAllomancer

[Blackwarder]

I’m not sure that ruin and preservation are each other anti-light, at least not naturally.

As we’ve seen in Navaho experiments each light breaks up into a rainbow with one color being disproportionately represented, I believe that if you could somehow combine them all you’ll end up with a perfect rainbow of colors.

[KandraAllomancer]

18 minutes ago, Blackwarder said:

As we’ve seen in Navaho experiments each light breaks up into a rainbow with one color being disproportionately represented, I believe that if you could somehow combine them all you’ll end up with a perfect rainbow of colors.

I'm not sure about this, as we have 16 Shards and just 7 colors of the rainbow... Plus, Shardic colors are complicated. Voidlight is hyperviolet, the corresponding rainbow color is violet (with an extremely broad band) and the color of Rayseium, also used by Odium in his visions, is gold and white.

Also, we haven't seen Ruin's or Preservation's Lights, just their godmetals (solid state), Shardpools (liquid) and mists (gas), while Lights seem to be something between liquid and gas

[Lightspine]

2 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Also, we haven't seen Ruin's or Preservation's Lights, just their godmetals (solid state), Shardpools (liquid) and mists (gas), while Lights seem to be something between liquid and gas

I noticed when Navani mentioned that the Lights seemed to be between those two states—I think it means they might be supercritical fluids.

For those who don't know, past a certain pressure liquids will form a supercritical fluid instead of a gas when temperature is increased. This fluid has density comparable to that of a liquid but it completely fills its container, just as a gas would. The easiest one to create is supercritical CO2, you should be able to find videos of that all over. This would mean that the Light fills the gem instead of just settling as a pool on the bottom, even if the gem is only partially infused, which I think is consistent with observations from the books.

However, I didn't immediately make the connection that perhaps investure from all shards would take the form of "Light" when it is in the state of a supercritical fluid. Such a state requires high pressure, so it would only appear when it is contained in a small space (exactly like a gemstone)!

Edited November 23, 2020 by Lightspine
making stuff more clear

[Halyo_Alex]

There is another Invested Light we've seen in the cosmere before.

Taldain's sunlight, the light that Invests White Sand naturally, for Sand Mastery.

...Could you store that in a gemstone if you could sing the Pure Tone of Autonomy? Could you "alloy" it with Stormlight/Lifelight/Voidlight?

Same with Preservation and Ruin's Mists, if you found the right tone/rhythm (the well of ascension had a Rhythm, presumably Preservation's)?

 

Jeeeeeeez the Cosmere just got so much more complex.

[Kingsdaughter613]

6 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I'm not sure about this, as we have 16 Shards and just 7 colors of the rainbow... Plus, Shardic colors are complicated. Voidlight is hyperviolet, the corresponding rainbow color is violet (with an extremely broad band) and the color of Rayseium, also used by Odium in his visions, is gold and white.

Also, we haven't seen Ruin's or Preservation's Lights, just their godmetals (solid state), Shardpools (liquid) and mists (gas), while Lights seem to be something between liquid and gas

Preservation’s color is White and Ruin’s is Black. The Mist is analogous to Stormlight, with both being the ‘gaseous’ form of Investiture.

[KandraAllomancer]

7 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Preservation’s color is White and Ruin’s is Black. The Mist is analogous to Stormlight, with both being the ‘gaseous’ form of Investiture.

There are two major differences though:

• mists seem to be pure gas, while Lights are some gas/liquid state
• mists have colors, but they don't produce regular light (or suck it from the surrounding space)

[Kingsdaughter613]

10 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

There are two major differences though:

• mists seem to be pure gas, while Lights are some gas/liquid state
• mists have colors, but they don't produce regular light (or suck it from the surrounding space)

The Mist does seem to have a faint light, and does not behave like normal mist. Also, I think WoB says that both Mist and Stormlight are forms of gaseous investiture.

Ruin’s Mist is pure black.

[KandraAllomancer]

8 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The Mist does seem to have a faint light, and does not behave like normal mist. Also, I think WoB says that both Mist and Stormlight are forms of gaseous investiture.

They kind of are gaseous, but the type of gas seems to be different on every planet (unlike solid state always being metal and liquid being Shardpools). I would assume that Preservation Investing on Roshar would result in Preservationlight, and Honor would produce Honormists on Scadrial, for example

[Halyo_Alex]

On 11/23/2020 at 6:15 AM, KandraAllomancer said:

Honormists

Stormmists?

That sounds kind of awesome actually...

[Brgst13]

I disagree with your characterization of anti-Light.  The Intent seemed to me simply being Navani's intent to create anti-Voidlight.  It seemed like the anti-Light was produced by inverting the frequency of Voidlight's tone, so that it created the Investiture equivalent of antimatter and destructive interference.  It does not seem necessary to involve other Shards here, as it only required Odium's tone and Navani's Intent.

[KandraAllomancer]

5 minutes ago, Brgst13 said:

I disagree with your characterization of anti-Light.  The Intent seemed to me simply being Navani's intent to create anti-Voidlight.  It seemed like the anti-Light was produced by inverting the frequency of Voidlight's tone, so that it created the Investiture equivalent of antimatter and destructive interference.  It does not seem necessary to involve other Shards here, as it only required Odium's tone and Navani's Intent.

Anti-Light is built from Investiture (like everything in Cosmere) and all Investiture got assigned to Shards at the Shattering, so I would assume that anti-Lights and their Intent must be some combination of Shards

[AndrolGenhald]

1 hour ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Anti-Light is built from Investiture (like everything in Cosmere) and all Investiture got assigned to Shards at the Shattering, so I would assume that anti-Lights and their Intent must be some combination of Shards

It's just Odium's rhythm though, 180 degrees out of phase. I would think each Shard would have their own rhythm, as most people seem to be assuming.

[Halyo_Alex]

33 minutes ago, AndrolGenhald said:

It's just Odium's rhythm though, 180 degrees out of phase. I would think each Shard would have their own rhythm, as most people seem to be assuming.

[Mistborn era 1]

Spoiler

I think we've even literally seen Preservation's Rhythm when Vin senses the pulses of the Well refilling using Bronze, too...

 

[KandraAllomancer]

1 hour ago, AndrolGenhald said:

It's just Odium's rhythm though, 180 degrees out of phase. I would think each Shard would have their own rhythm, as most people seem to be assuming.

Absolutely, but I think each Rhytm corresponds to some Intent, which, following the same rules as Investiture, would be some linear combination of 16 Shardic Intents

[LightReader]

If Ruin and Preservation were each others’ anti-investitures, then Sazed would never have been able to pick up both Shards and mix them together. Anti-investitures don’t mix, they cancel each other out, which seems to result in explosions. I don’t think the intents are really relevant once the investiture is brought to the physical realm. I think the Shard/intent is more like a filter that the investiture goes through when it is brought over from the spiritual realm, which results in the different rhythms (which are essentially frequencies of investiture). This is also why the Shard’s intent has more to do with the ability to access investiture and than with the actual powers that the investiture fuels. 

The names Towerlight and Warlight are something people gave the hybrid lights after the fact because they needed something to call them and these names seemed fitting/descriptive. They aren’t indicative of some new Intent being given to the investiture. I don’t think investiture itself has intent, or else you couldn’t use Preservation investiture to destroy things. It’s the Shards themselves (and people) that have Intent, which shapes the rhythm of the investiture that they bring into the physical/cognitive realms.

Edited November 29, 2020 by LightReader

[Kingsdaughter613]

42 minutes ago, LightReader said:

If Ruin and Preservation were each others’ anti-investitures, then Sazed would never have been able to pick up both Shards and mix them together. Anti-investitures don’t mix, they cancel each other out, which seems to result in explosions. I don’t think the intents are really relevant once the investiture is brought to the physical realm. I think the Shard/intent is more like a filter that the investiture goes through when it is brought over from the spiritual realm, which results in the different rhythms (which are essentially frequencies of investiture). This is also why the Shard’s intent has more to do with the ability to access investiture and than with the actual powers that the investiture fuels. 

The names Towerlight and Warlight are something people gave the hybrid lights after the fact because they needed something to call them and these names seemed fitting/descriptive. They aren’t indicative of some new Intent being given to the investiture. I don’t think investiture itself has intent, or else you couldn’t use Preservation investiture to destroy things. It’s the Shards themselves (and people) that have Intent, which shapes the rhythm of the investiture that they bring into the physical/cognitive realms.

To be fair ‘explosive’ is a very accurate descriptor of Ettmetal.

[Halyo_Alex]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

To be fair ‘explosive’ is a very accurate descriptor of Ettmetal.

Only when it touches water.

I think Ettmetal is basically a "forced harmony" (a Discord perhaps?) of Ruin and Preservation's Investitures. Like Warlight prior to Navani and Raboniel figuring out how to merge the Pure Tones and Rhythms of Honor and Odium, but being brute forced into coexisting by the sheer force of two shards.

Which also implies that True Ettmetal will be a separate thing from this... Discordium.

[BiochromaticStormlight]

11 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Only when it touches water.

I think Ettmetal is basically a "forced harmony" (a Discord perhaps?) of Ruin and Preservation's Investitures. Like Warlight prior to Navani and Raboniel figuring out how to merge the Pure Tones and Rhythms of Honor and Odium, but being brute forced into coexisting by the sheer force of two shards.

Which also implies that True Ettmetal will be a separate thing from this... Discordium.

Is ettmetal canonized in the books? It's such a boring name. Sazedium tho? That's fire. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

8 minutes ago, BiochromaticStormlight said:

Is ettmetal canonized in the books? It's such a boring name. Sazedium tho? That's fire. 

Yes, it is.

[DiePie]

I think it's fairly safe to assume that godmetals (or any other physical form of investiture) have atoms that correspond to each different shard. Ettmetal atoms, then, would be Alkaline Earth Metals (group 2 on the periodic table), because of its reactivity with water (the explosions come from the energy released by the reaction). 

So assuming this theory is correct (in a literal sense), then would an ettmetal atom be made using different sub-atomic particles in replacement of Protons or a neutrons? Would it have either of them? Does it even have the same atomic structure as a normal atom does? Does it replace an atom we have on the periodic table? Or would a particle with the same atomic number even have the same properties because of its similarity to a god-metal? Has Brandon even gotten that far?

 

[KandraAllomancer]

19 hours ago, LightReader said:

If Ruin and Preservation were each others’ anti-investitures, then Sazed would never have been able to pick up both Shards and mix them together. Anti-investitures don’t mix, they cancel each other out, which seems to result in explosions. I don’t think the intents are really relevant once the investiture is brought to the physical realm. I think the Shard/intent is more like a filter that the investiture goes through when it is brought over from the spiritual realm, which results in the different rhythms (which are essentially frequencies of investiture). This is also why the Shard’s intent has more to do with the ability to access investiture and than with the actual powers that the investiture fuels. 

To quote from The Hero of Ages:

Quote

The powers were opposites. As he drew them in, they threatened to annihilate each other. Yet because he was of one mind on how to use them, he could keep them separate. They could touch without destroying each other, if he willed it.

It's Sazed's will that keeps them from mutual destruction, not their nature. It seems that Intent of an individual who holds some Investiture can override how it behaves; for example, Voidlight and Stormlight don't mix, but the joint will of humans and Singers can work as an emulsifier. What Sazed does seems to fall under the same category, just on a completely different scale. Also, the chapter where the emulsifier is discovered is literally named Harmony

Edited November 29, 2020 by KandraAllomancer

[Honorless]

Ruin and Preservation could be each other's anti-Investiture, though do note that Brandon said not every Shard has such clear-cut opposites, which would be interesting as that might imply the possibility of anti-Shards. Ruin and Preservation's Investiture repelled one another (Hemalurgic spikes and the Mists) and even destroyed one another upon contact (like Raboniel wished Stormlight and Voidlight did, that is how Vin did what she did at the end of Hero of Ages) but I don't know, the two also mixed together and ultimately come from the same source. Okay, maybe coming from the same source isn't a strong argument against them being each other's anti-Investiture with how little we know of Adonalsium's nature but the joining of the two as Harmony, actually mixing together the two Shards as per WoB, definitely is. I think the two Shards' Rhythms are close to each other's anti-Rhythms. 

Edited November 30, 2020 by Honorless

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 11/24/2020 at 3:45 PM, KandraAllomancer said:

Absolutely, but I think each Rhytm corresponds to some Intent, which, following the same rules as Investiture, would be some linear combination of 16 Shardic Intents

I mean, it's literally the exact same thing as Odium's tone, with some Spiritual nonsense added on top. Personally, I'm pretty sure its Intent is still just Odium. Keep in mind, it doesn't destroy everything Odious - it gets conducted by raysium just fine. However, the actual thing it is "made" of reacts with Voidlight and destroys it. No reason for it to be anything but Odium.

On 11/22/2020 at 4:21 PM, KandraAllomancer said:

Rosharan spren are different mixes of X% Honor + Y% Cultivation, where X and Y add up to 100. This would, fortunately, make creating custom anti-Lights rather difficult.

Based on Phendorana dying, doesn't seem like a custom mix is needed.

Also, going to agree with what others say: the fact ettmetal exists imo proves Ruin and Preservation are not each others' antis. It explodes, yes, but were it made of an Investiture-anti-Investiture pair, I doubt it would even need water to blow up.

(Also, it would be really weird for Ruin and Preservation to have the same sound, but that's a gut feeling argument rather than evidence.)

[Silarn]

I mean I think what we're really talking about here is matter vs antimatter.

In Navani's experimentation, she describes splitting the spectra of various lights. In reality, while different substances will produce different light spectra, they scatter in a predictable way in a prism. Some substances will produce more of certain wavelengths than others, but you end up the same overall spectrum with some gaps in it.

Invested light produces its own unique spectrum. Now, I don't know how that translates into visible light. I'm not sure how you 'see' light that isn't light. But essentially invested matter and energy seems to have its own rules separate from 'standard' matter. It can recombine with itself, much like light recombines with itself, but it doesn't naturally combine with other types of light. What I take this to mean is that, with standard light, if you were to add RGB together you would ultimately perceive white light. Based on BS's descriptions, if you were to take, say, green 'standard' light, red voidlight, and blue stormlight and shine them on a surface - you would still interpret three different types of light. They would not combine to white.

This is all still rather odd, since we know that 'shardmatter' still interacts with regular matter, physically, chemically, etc.

But ultimately, I think it's safe to say that no Shard is truly the opposite of any other shard. They are all aspects of what was once a unified power. Anti-light is the opposite of that power. Perhaps Ruin and Preservation combine into something that would be a bit jarring and dissonant, but they can still combine. Not unlike any two physical sounds or EM spectra in the real world. Anti-light is like anti-matter. It's out of phase with standard light such that the two will cancel out if they interact.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Silarn