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Harmony's Enemy


StanLemon

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2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

I don't think CUltivation and Wit are friends so I don't think she would tell him much. 

My apologies I was totally unclear lol. I meant if odium/honor became a combo shard, perhaps even all 3. Which is unlikely but possible at the end of book 5.

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I remembered I made this in the past:

 

Let's compile what we know of Trelagism and Trellism.

1) Trelagism was a religion on Scadrial during its Classical era, before the Lord Ruler's Ascension. It was practiced by the Nelazan who lived close to the poles. They mapped out the various astronomical bodies visible from Scadrial.

2) They believed that Trell and Nalt were brothers. The latter was jealous of the former and cast his single burning eye (the sun) upon the lands to block out the Thousand Eyes of Trell (the stars)

 

1) Trellism is the belief in Trell. Is associated with a new metal which is described as silvery with distinctive, dark red spots. It has only been seen used Hemalurgically so far: on Kandra and to create Chimeras

2) Several members of the Set, in both high and low positions, are followers of Trellism, and the organization itself may exist for the purpose of serving Trell. Bleeder was also turned by Trell.

3) Trell has their own Faceless Immortals, who are described as having red eyes. A red miasma is how Harmony chose to represent Trell to Wax in BoM. They are also associated with "men of gold and red, bearers of the final metal"

4) There seems to be a strong element of anti-establishmentarianism in Trellism, namely: freedom from Harmony and social justice from the central government in Elendel or more broadly the Basin

 

Now the most popular theory (and the one that I subscribe to)

Trell is Autonomy or one of her Avatars

1) The stated motives of Trell's followers align well with Autonomy's Intent

2) White Sand spoilers

Spoiler

Trell is a character in White Sand whom Kenton meets. He's one of the construction workers who thank him.

The word "trell" is used as a suffix multiple times in White Sand.

3) Trelagism's reverence for stars aligns well with Autonomy. She seems to currently be inhabiting Taldain's star.

4) The long day/night cycles experienced by the Nelazan is reminiscent of Darkside Dayside division of Taldain

5) Autonomy is said to have multiple Avatars. There is a thematic resonance with worshiping a multitude of astronomical bodies

6) Autonomy's star might be visible from Scadrial.

Spoiler

Autonomy's Investiture is usable wherever her starlight reaches

7) Trell is a Shard we know. It isn't Endowment. Honor, Ambition, Devotion and Dominion are Splintered. This only leaves Cultivation, Odium and Autonomy. The former two are embroiled in the conflict on Roshar.

8) Autonomy is stated to have a habit of interfering on other worlds by Khriss

 

Trell is Odium

1) Has a track record of attacking other Shards. Odium is known to fear Harmony.

2) The break between Stormlight front 5 and back 5, during which the Wax and Wayne era books take place

3) Is known to corrupt Investiture (red)

4) Similarities with religions on Roshar

Spoiler

It can be argued that various that multiple pre-Ascension religions on Scadrial seemed connected to other Shardworlds. The Astalsi and Dadradah religions seemed close to Nalthis. The Southern Scadrian religion is similarly dualistic but quite clearly refers to Preservation and Ruin (and later Harmony). It should also be noted that the dualist religion of Trelagism is similar to the Purelaker religion of Nu Ralik and Vun Makak. There is also some resemblance with the Tashikki faith of Tashi and Nun Raylisi (note that Odium's Vessel's name is Rayse). The Passions, the Thaylen faith also seems to have some connections to Odium, the note-worthy part being that both Ruin and Odium have used that word (with a capital P). 

5) the agents of Trell align with Odium's Intent.

Spoiler

He has a history of turning a part of the population against another, as we see on Roshar

6) Alongside purple and black, gold is a colour associated with Odium. "Men of gold" might also refer to

Spoiler

the Iriali, who have, as of OB, sided with Odium. They might also be a refugee group on Roshar, like the Ashynites, according to their religious lore of the One and the Long Trail

7) Odium's forces comprise of several beings that may pose as Trell's Faceless Immortals:

Spoiler

the Fused or Singers in Forms of Power.

8) As per WoB, Odium has visited Scadrial before.

-1) Raysium does not look like Trellium

-2) Odium is restricted to Roshar. (Note that Taravangian said there were holes in the contract plus Odium might've employed some other methods like sending Splinters or Avatars)

 

Both Autonomy and Odium

1) May have worked together in the past to Splinter Honor, and before that Devotion and Dominion, the former sounds like an opposite to Odium, the latter to Autonomy.

2) possible red herring in a broadsheet in era 2 "Vote for Passion, Vote for Freedom"

3) the break between Stormlight front 5 and back 5

Edited by Honorless
The spoiler boxes came over from the original post that I copied. They couldn't be removed and interacted weirdly to create double spoiler boxes somehow. Sorry for the inconvenience!
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33 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Both Autonomy and Odium

1) May have worked together in the past to Splinter Honor, and before that Devotion and Dominion, the former sounds like an opposite to Odium, the latter to Autonomy.

This ignores the Shard known to have been present when Ambition was killed - Mercy - in favor of a speculation, however well based on theoretical considerations.

 

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6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

This ignores the Shard known to have been present when Ambition was killed - Mercy - in favor of a speculation, however well based on theoretical considerations.

yeah, I copied these points over from elsewhere, I originally wrote them before RoW. So, at the time I didn't consider there could've been another Shard present during the Ambition Odium showdown (and why would anyone? Ambition was alone unlike D & D or H & C). So yeah, add Mercy to the suspicion list

1 hour ago, beewall said:

Wait, what?

There were multiple WoBs, kinda difficult to find because I don't remember any keywords for better search results. One WoB saying multiple Shards had visited Scadrial after its creation, before the events of Mistborn; another about Odium coming and deciding Preservation and Ruin were already at cross-purposes so they were no threat, iirc

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7 minutes ago, Honorless said:

One WoB saying multiple Shards had visited Scadrial after its creation, before the events of Mistborn

This one I found:

Spoiler

mender

Was Scadrial visited by any other Shard before the events of Mistborn? If so, which one?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Several.

General Signed Books 2018 (March 8, 2018)

 

7 minutes ago, Honorless said:

another about Odium coming and deciding Preservation and Ruin were already at cross-purposes so they were no threat

This one I can't find, even trying several very vague terms, though I could be missing it. I'll do a bit more digging later.

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There is also this one

Spoiler

Questioner

Is there anything I should look at as a hint for something we haven’t figured out yet?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, that's a good question too. There are moments through the entire original trilogy that people haven't figured out yet. But they've picked out most of what they are, they just don't know why. Like they know something weird is happening, they don't know-- They haven't guessed why the weirdness is happening. The weirdness is figure-out-able, but it would be hard. But it's not outside of reason for you to figure out why these certain moments-- these moments people have not yet figured out.

Questioner

Because Odium had influence on Scadrial.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Not a ton, but yes.

Questioner

...Kelsier had an irrational hatred for Nobles.

Brandon Sanderson

He did, he did indeed.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

 

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10 minutes ago, LordTheodore said:

Questioner

Because Odium had influence on Scadrial.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Not a ton, but yes.

Questioner

...Kelsier had an irrational hatred for Nobles.

Brandon Sanderson

He did, he did indeed.

Doesn't necessarily mean much. Brandon is totally willing to laugh at people as they connect the wrong dots, lol. (That makes him sound meaner than I intend to say.)

Edit: in the audio, he sounds very reluctant when saying "yes", and gives off a vibe to me of "not what I mean" at "he did".

Edited by beewall
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3 hours ago, Nesh said:

I'm not sold on Odium getting off Roshar at the end of book 5.  Unless Brandon wants to make Cultivation the Big Bad in the back half.  Really Autonomy is the only one that makes sense.

Pretty much the only thing that makes me doubt the Trell = Autonomy theory is that it makes so much sense. Surely Brandon wouldn't have made it this big mystery if the answer was something you could figure out just by knowing all the available info and having a good think on the matter. I'm pretty sure that's just bias of someone who assumes the book is written for Cosmere superfans though. It's probably meant to be a mystery for people that only follow Mistborn for some reason.

Edited by seriodor
one word too many
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15 minutes ago, seriodor said:

Pretty much the only thing that makes me doubt the Trell = Autonomy theory is that it makes so much sense. Surely Brandon wouldn't have made it this big mystery if the answer was something you could figure out just by knowing all the available info and having a good think on the matter. I'm pretty sure that's just bias of someone who assumes the book is written for Cosmere superfans though. It's probably meant to be a mystery for people that only follow Mistborn for some reason.

I feel like he put the clues there for Cosmere enthusiasts to figure out  A lot of people thought it might be Odium at first.

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I agree with the theory that's it's Taravangian.  It makes complete sense for the timeline, but Brandon obviously couldn't make that reveal before RoW released.  Wax and Wayne 4 might have TOdium in it, although that could spoil the outcome of Stormlight 5.  Personally, I have very little faith in the idea that TOdium will be defeated in SA 5, so it wouldn't spoil anything for me.

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4 hours ago, Nesh said:

I'm not sold on Odium getting off Roshar at the end of book 5.  Unless Brandon wants to make Cultivation the Big Bad in the back half.  Really Autonomy is the only one that makes sense.

What if Taravangian is killed in book 5, and Cultivation takes up Odium to become a new Shard and the new baddie?  I doubt it, but it would be pretty cool.  Wonder what that Shard would be called if that did happen...

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3 hours ago, seriodor said:

Pretty much the only thing that makes me doubt the Trell = Autonomy theory is that it makes so much sense. Surely Brandon wouldn't have made it this big mystery if the answer was something you could figure out just by knowing all the available info and having a good think on the matter. I'm pretty sure that's just bias of someone who assumes the book is written for Cosmere superfans though. It's probably meant to be a mystery for people that only follow Mistborn for some reason.

I think Brandon leaves enough clues so that after the mystery is revealed, you look back and say "oh, there were actually enough clues that I could have figured it out." Most people just reading through don't spend the time to clue-hunt, though. It's pretty hard to make a mystery that's obscure enough that superfans poring every word can't figure it out, but casual readers that read through just once go "oh, that makes sense, now in hindsight I see all of the hints leading up to it."

If there are clues that actively misdirect or point to the wrong thing, then after the reveal, people's reaction would be "hmm, that doesn't make any sense" instead of "ohh, that's cool, it all fits together!" You can't say "oh, that theory makes the most sense... therefore it's wrong, because it would be too obvious." (See, for example, Kaladin's fourth ideal, which was literally word for word the most common theory people had about it.)

If Brandon wants something to be completely mysterious and surprising even for obsessive fans, he can just not leave any info about it. (See, for example, Dawnshards, which were a complete mystery up until Dawnshard, simply because there was no reliable information.)

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I'm of the theory that, in book 5, the T-vessel (new Odium) will kill Dalinar in the contest and take up the shard of Honor and find a way to kill Cultivation and take up that shard too. So we'll have a 3-way shard, renamed Trell (root word Tre = 3). It lines up perfect because

  1. We know Wax & Wayne takes place between books 5 & 6 of Stormlight
  2. If Odium took up the shard of Honor he wouldn't be bound to Roshar anymore
  3. Brandon said there's a scene in RoW that he wrote all the way at the beginning, and we would know it when we see it. I'm of the mind that's the scene with Nightblood where T ascends to godhood. So if Brandon has been planning this from the beginning, he would have know the timeline lined up for Wax & Wayne.
  4. If Brandon is the planner that I think he is, he's going to have to keep upping the stakes in the Cosmere for that final Mistborn era to really have a payoff. Having a 3-shard villan would definitely up the stakes.
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19 hours ago, ShalladinForever said:

What if Taravangian is killed in book 5, and Cultivation takes up Odium to become a new Shard and the new baddie?  I doubt it, but it would be pretty cool.  Wonder what that Shard would be called if that did happen...

Why then did she not attack immediately? The interactions between Taravangian and Cultivation were, for a lack of a better description, friendly.

You´d have to see another kill by Nightblood. Why would Taravangian materialize anywhere near Nightblood?

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16 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why then did she not attack immediately? The interactions between Taravangian and Cultivation were, for a lack of a better description, friendly.

You´d have to see another kill by Nightblood. Why would Taravangian materialize anywhere near Nightblood?

I think Cultivation either thinks she can control Odium or underestimates the threat he poses. I think she's trying to be friendly and things are going to turn south on her real fast.

Nightblood is not the only way to kill a shard's vessel...as we have already seen multiple times in the Cosmere

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23 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why then did she not attack immediately? The interactions between Taravangian and Cultivation were, for a lack of a better description, friendly.

You´d have to see another kill by Nightblood. Why would Taravangian materialize anywhere near Nightblood?

Yeah I agree. I don't think Cultivation wants to kill Todium. After all, someone has to hold that power lest it become a tempest--a very dangerous one. I think she  cultivated a vessel she sincerely believes can handle it better than Rayse did.

Perhaps she's wrong. Or she's miscalculated. Futuresight isn't perfect, after all, and particularly around that much investiture, I'm sure. And I just can't see that many of the original vessels wanting to subsume other shards. Manipulate them, shatter them, sure. But subsume them? I'm just not convinced that's a goal. We haven't seen it happen, I'll say, or evidence that they want it to.

I would guess that's one reason they killed Ado in the first place--because it was too much power for one person (and/or just knowledge/experimentation), and the "non interference" pact seems related to that. Notably it seems the vessels who broke that pact are dead. Hmm. 

Except Cultivation.

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34 minutes ago, Roocifer said:

I think Cultivation either thinks she can control Odium or underestimates the threat he poses. I think she's trying to be friendly and things are going to turn south on her real fast.

But the basic problem I see here is that this just assumes that she has to. And that again stems from the assumption that she wants him to be anywhere near her. I can see no reason for that. Hence this looks like circular reasoning to me.

Why does she not just release him from whatever bound him to the Rosharan system and tells him that he can go without her making any trouble, on condition that he go soon?

34 minutes ago, Roocifer said:

Nightblood is not the only way to kill a shard's vessel...as we have already seen multiple times in the Cosmere

Actually as far as anything less than a Shard in an attack on another Shard is concerned, Nightblood is the only known option.

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Red is generally the colour of corrupted investiture. What if Kelsier has turned on Harmony due to Harmony's inability to act, and he's used corrupted investiture to do so. Possibly related to whatever the Ghostbloods are up to. There's little that might anger or annoy Kelsier than someone who is in a position to act and help poor people but being frozen into inaction. Harmony's actions have seemingly frozen the basin in place technologically and culturally. Assuming its a shard attacking could be a red herring. I've mentioned elsewhere, but Miles seems very Kelsier-like in motivation and action. Kelsier could wish to become Discord to allow himself to use the power of the Shard to actually act.

Edited by Darth_Hel
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36 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But the basic problem I see here is that this just assumes that she has to. And that again stems from the assumption that she wants him to be anywhere near her. I can see no reason for that. Hence this looks like circular reasoning to me.

Why does she not just release him from whatever bound him to the Rosharan system and tells him that he can go without her making any trouble, on condition that he go soon?

Pretty sure the shard of Honor is what's binding Odium to the Rosharan system, not Cultivation. I don't know if she can undo that. But yeah I am definitely theorizing some and making some assumptions. We'll see how it actually turns out.

37 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Actually as far as anything less than a Shard in an attack on another Shard is concerned, Nightblood is the only known option.

Well I was specifically thinking the Shard of Odium would be killing the vessel of Cultivation.

Spoiler

That being said, we do know Dawnshards can also be used to undo/kill shards and/or their vessels, and we know at least one Dawnshard is on Roshar.

 

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On 12/3/2020 at 2:28 PM, Roocifer said:

I'm of the theory that, in book 5, the T-vessel (new Odium) will kill Dalinar in the contest and take up the shard of Honor and find a way to kill Cultivation and take up that shard too. So we'll have a 3-way shard, renamed Trell (root word Tre = 3). It lines up perfect because

  1. We know Wax & Wayne takes place between books 5 & 6 of Stormlight
  2. If Odium took up the shard of Honor he wouldn't be bound to Roshar anymore
  3. Brandon said there's a scene in RoW that he wrote all the way at the beginning, and we would know it when we see it. I'm of the mind that's the scene with Nightblood where T ascends to godhood. So if Brandon has been planning this from the beginning, he would have know the timeline lined up for Wax & Wayne.
  4. If Brandon is the planner that I think he is, he's going to have to keep upping the stakes in the Cosmere for that final Mistborn era to really have a payoff. Having a 3-shard villan would definitely up the stakes.

I just can't see Hoid not informing Sazed of Trell's identity, if Hoid know's Trell's identity, with as much dialogue as they've had. That, to me, is the biggest obstacle with it being any of the Rosharan shards. I don't see how Hoid can be on Roshar for 1-5 and then go to Scadrial between 5-6 and not know who Trell is if it's somehow a Rosharan shard, and I can't see him NOT telling Harmony if he knows who the enemy is. 

This is compounded by Sazed KNOWING so much about what is going on with Roshar from Hoid. That neither of them could figure it out with as much involvement as they both have on Roshar just seems incredulous. 

I think the only reason Hoid would hold that knowledge back from Sazed is if the shard was somehow blocking their identity. Both of them knowing it's a shard but not knowing WHICH is much more plausible if it's not a Rosharan shard.

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On 12/4/2020 at 6:35 PM, Raven Wilder said:

Is there any confirmation that Sazed's letter to Hoid was written/sent during the events of Rhythm of War? The epigraphs don't always neatly line up with the chronology of the story.

That is possible, though I do believe it was. One of the lines says that he is looking for someone who can act on his behalf, which is likely him planning for Wax. As Part 1 of Stormlight is set 5-10 years before Wax & Wayne it is likely that this letter was during or before Rhythm of War.

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