SzethIsBadAsHell

Is Teravangion Boon Curse still active

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Teravangion or Should I say Todium, man I love this Antagonist. But I have a Major question. Do you guys think his Boon curse is still in effect ? I’m sure his abilities are enhanced so on his dumb days he will be about as smart as a genius level human. While on his Smart days he would have Shard level intellect and no compassion allowing him to control His shards fury . While on his dumb days his passions are felt strongly. I kind of think this is what Cultivation had in mind all along......

         I’m thinking while he may want to beat Dalinar, he will still want to save Roshar. I’m thinking he stole Hoids memories of the shattering of Adolnalsium. And may set his Sights on destroying the rest of the shards in the Cosmere....in any case I imagine he is a much better schemer than Rayse....what do you guys think

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My gut was no, but Cultivation may have a piece of him (like she does with Dalinar). 

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25 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

My gut was no, but Cultivation may have a piece of him (like she does with Dalinar). 

My initial thought was no as well until I thought about how Odium was acting towards the end . Thier were times Rayse wanted to do something but the Shards intent kept interfering . So the vessel has its own Agenda but the Shards intent can Overide the vessel. So that leads me to think Cultivation chose or created a person whose nature closely mirrors the shard . That’s why she needed someone full of compassion . The only time Teravangio. Is compassionate is when he is dumb

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43 minutes ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

My initial thought was no as well until I thought about how Odium was acting towards the end . Thier were times Rayse wanted to do something but the Shards intent kept interfering . So the vessel has its own Agenda but the Shards intent can Overide the vessel. So that leads me to think Cultivation chose or created a person whose nature closely mirrors the shard . That’s why she needed someone full of compassion . The only time Teravangio. Is compassionate is when he is dumb

But what happened with that? Mr.T was trying to do good by killing Odium. He was risking his city by breaking his oath to work with Odium. So .... why does Terivangian go so evil so quickly? To me Terivangian was not 100% evil, but struggled with two conflicting versions of morality. When his morality turned out to be "be evil immediately upon getting power" I felt really betrayed by Brandon. I honestly felt Terivangian had learned a lot in his final days and that he did have the capacity to be emotional and understanding... I was hoping his emotional side would help him wield the shard closer to Passion, but damn did he ever go straight to Odium...

On that, I thought Renarin wanted Mr.T to go against Odium in order to stay in the light, but I guess Terivangian shouldn't have done it? I just ... I dont like it from a literacy POV. MrT was not what Odium is and I don't believe he is a good vessel despite what Brandon seems to want him to be. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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2 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

But what happened with that? Mr.T was trying to do good by killing Odium. He was risking his city by breaking his oath to work with Odium. So .... why does Terivangian go so evil so quickly? To me Terivangian was not 100% evil, but struggled with two conflicting versions of morality. When his morality turned out to be "be evil immediately upon getting power" I felt really betrayed by Brandon. I honestly felt Terivangian had learned a lot in his final days and that he did have the capacity to be emotional and understanding... I was hoping his emotional side would help him wield the shard closer to Passion, but damn did he ever go straight to Odium...

On that, I thought Renarin wanted Mr.T to go against Odium in order to stay in the light, but I guess Terivangian shouldn't have done it? I just ... I dont like it from a literacy POV. MrT was not what Odium is and I don't believe he is a good vessel despite what Brandon seems to want him to be. 

I’m Not getting the Evil part . I am one who has never thought Teravangion was evil . The way I see him he is an extreme pragmatist .His original Diagram involved a plot to become the Ruler of Roshar . He was going to ask Odium to spare all his subjects . Once Odium agreed he planned on taking over all of Roshar , then surrendering to Odium and sparing everyone’s lives thereby saving everyone . To do that he had Szeth assasinate a lot of world . I’m sure you know all this but my points is he believes the Ends justify any means . 
           Now take that and apply it to Odium shard . Odium wants to Destroy Roshar only so he can be free from Braise , so he can continue to go thru the Galaxy and be the most powerful shard . What if Teravangion feels that a great Cosmere war is coming and it will endanger Roshar . We have the ghostbloods from Scadrial trying to interfere in Roshars affairs already , you have Herald torturing Spren to death to find a way to get off world . That’s just the kinds of schemes that Teravangion is good at . I don’t think he is evil . He buddy buddy with Cultivation . Rayse was evil so Cultivation hid from him . I think it will be interesting 

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I don't know if he's evil, and I strongly doubt that the boon/curse is still in effect BUT I suspect that Cultivation still has some way to influence him or at least to get a better "view" of him because of it.  I would also put money on Cultivation's plan not being done and still having several layers and twists and turns to go.  After all if intent influences how strong a shard's futuresight is then Cultivation's intent would probably make her futuresight one of the best.

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5 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

But what happened with that? Mr.T was trying to do good by killing Odium. He was risking his city by breaking his oath to work with Odium. So .... why does Terivangian go so evil so quickly? To me Terivangian was not 100% evil, but struggled with two conflicting versions of morality. When his morality turned out to be "be evil immediately upon getting power" I felt really betrayed by Brandon. I honestly felt Terivangian had learned a lot in his final days and that he did have the capacity to be emotional and understanding... I was hoping his emotional side would help him wield the shard closer to Passion, but damn did he ever go straight to Odium...

On that, I thought Renarin wanted Mr.T to go against Odium in order to stay in the light, but I guess Terivangian shouldn't have done it? I just ... I dont like it from a literacy POV. MrT was not what Odium is and I don't believe he is a good vessel despite what Brandon seems to want him to be. 

Taravangian's morality has always been that the end justifies the means. Note - both on his smart days and on his dumb days, he never regrets the path he took or the plans he's making. He's never struggled with "two conflicting versions of morality." On his smart days he can make more clever plans, but on both his super-smart and super-compassionate days, he believes that if the end is right, the way to get there is worth it. On his more compassionate days he's more sad about it, but doesn't change his mind.

He's kept this when he became Odium. Remember his realization? "With this new power, he can save everyone". He's still the same Taravangian - he sees the goal, judges it good, and decides the path to take there is worth it.  It's the exact opposite of the Radiant oaths - it's Destination before Journey.

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29 minutes ago, ftl said:

Taravangian's morality has always been that the end justifies the means. Note - both on his smart days and on his dumb days, he never regrets the path he took or the plans he's making. He's never struggled with "two conflicting versions of morality." On his smart days he can make more clever plans, but on both his super-smart and super-compassionate days, he believes that if the end is right, the way to get there is worth it. On his more compassionate days he's more sad about it, but doesn't change his mind.

He's kept this when he became Odium. Remember his realization? "With this new power, he can save everyone". He's still the same Taravangian - he sees the goal, judges it good, and decides the path to take there is worth it.  It's the exact opposite of the Radiant oaths - it's Destination before Journey.

I didn't so much mean deontology vs utilitarianism, but more should he protect the few if it is likely or attempt to protect everyone if it is unlikely. I think he struggled with if he had done enough, and that was what I was interested in with him. This same choice was made by Dalinar in the end, and oddly he didnt care at all about the distinction. But to me, the how much is worth what he did was the interesting choice, and he had to striggle with himself to risk doing more; to me, that risking in the end was honourable. 

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35 minutes ago, ftl said:

Taravangian's morality has always been that the end justifies the means. Note - both on his smart days and on his dumb days, he never regrets the path he took or the plans he's making. He's never struggled with "two conflicting versions of morality." On his smart days he can make more clever plans, but on both his super-smart and super-compassionate days, he believes that if the end is right, the way to get there is worth it. On his more compassionate days he's more sad about it, but doesn't change his mind.

He's kept this when he became Odium. Remember his realization? "With this new power, he can save everyone". He's still the same Taravangian - he sees the goal, judges it good, and decides the path to take there is worth it.  It's the exact opposite of the Radiant oaths - it's Destination before Journey.

The idea that "ends justify the means" is not incompatible with the Radiant oaths, Brandon has said that while some would disagree with it, other orders would be fine with this line of morality. The Elsecallers and Skybreakers were given as specific examples of this.

AndrewHB (paraphrased)

Is Niccolò Machiavelli's political theory--the ends justify the means--incompatible with the Knights Radiant's First Oath?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No. Although many of the Orders of Knights Radiant would find Machiavelli's theory, that the ends justify the means, incompatible with additional oaths and/or values of that Order, there are some Orders who could accept a Machiavellian. (Brandon said that the Skybreakers are where a Machiavellian could find a home.)

AndrewHB

I wondered if I could follow up to that Machiavelli question. Would Elsecallers be a-- one of those other, uh-- one of those...

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah. Elsecallers are fairly compatible. Like, Elsecallers feel like the journey is... the journey is the entire species, right? And that the journey is the destination. *inaudible*

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)
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