SzethIsBadAsHell Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 42 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said: always figured that Hoid was this third kind, setting up Odiun ( T or R) with false memories is just that kind of nudge. What if they were not false memories . What if they were certain memories that are designed to coerce someone into coming to the wrong conclusion . Like when someone has half the story . Here is an example a woman is murdered . The police find out her husband was abusive and the woman was planning on leaving him . With no other information the police come to the conclusion the husband did . Later they find out the wife had a secret boyfriend , one who is wanted in the murders of three other women that were planning on leaving thier husbands!!! It’s the old saying “ a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. So Hoid could have given Odium info . Just not the whole facts . Info to nudge him in a direction he wanted him to go . 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FollowYourMuse Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Child of Hodor said: The only way Wit could have planned this great subterfuge, a subterfuge where he even needs to pretend to be surprised and scared in his mind even though Odium can’t read his mind, is if he knew in advance that Rayse is dead and there is a new vessel. Which really doesn’t seem to be the case. Maybe, just maybe Brandon’s author avatar who is great everything finally made a mistake. As Sazed points out in the epigraphs Wit doesn’t completely understand the Shards. Which is what Frost has been warning him about all along as well. He messed with something he doesn’t understand and it bit him. For once. I agree it is quite possible that wit was finally outwitted. Odium can't read his mind but probably can still sense emotions and passions. But after re-reading it again I am less inclined to think that the fear was a fake by Wit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FollowYourMuse Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 1 minute ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said: What if they were not false memories . What if they were certain memories that are designed to coerce someone into coming to the wrong conclusion . Like when someone has half the story . Here is an example a woman is murdered . The police find out her husband was abusive and the woman was planning on leaving him . With no other information the police come to the conclusion the husband did . Later they find out the wife had a secret boyfriend , one who is wanted in the murders of three other women that were planning on leaving thier husbands!!! It’s the old saying “ a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. So Hoid could have given Odium info . Just not the whole facts . Info to nudge him in a direction he wanted him to go . That could be too, I mentioned false memories based on Wits comment "make them know the truths that you have made up." But truths that have been tweaked would be even better. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuffel Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 His real memories are in the coins. He baited big T with the memories stored in his breath 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTuninator Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 55 minutes ago, Shuffel said: His real memories are in the coins. He baited big T with the memories stored in his breath If so, than why the terror? It doesn't quite add up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solant Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 I mean, you can set a trap with yourself as the bait, and still be frightened when the trap is sprung, because you are still at the mercy of a hateful shard. I think it was intentional because he said that it went exactly how he expected it to. I also believe that the secret lies in the coins somehow, because we know he has access to (BoM) Spoiler Unkeyed metal minds. Bonus tinfoil hat theory: what if you can create and store fake memories with light weaving? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humanchaos Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) I agree that it reads pretty clearly that Wit's terror was real. The description was from the narrator, not Wit himself, so it is completely reliable. Odium also says that he can't see Wit's mind, but he can see the memories stored in "this other investiture". Also, not only being able to see the "investiture", but detecting that they contained memories, implies that he'd be able to see if the coins were similarly invested. With that, I believe Wit's contemplation and worry that the breaths holding his memories would be "destroyed," as it was put, was real, unexpected, and a legitimate fear that Wit did not anticipate nor want to happen. To me, the mention of Wit losing his perfect pitch will be a vital flaw in Odium's rash actions of tampering with the breaths. Odium did not recognize that they were "breaths," but merely "other investiture." He is nearly certainly unaware of the effects of breaths and the heightenings. He likely unwittingly knocked Wit down from the second heightening, losing his perfect pitch, which will clue him that something happened, along with all the other clues he noticed himself during the encounter. The one thing that makes me still worry is the last part: Quote Was something...wrong? Don't trouble yourself, he thought. This is working. After all, Wit's first face to face meeting with Odium in over a thousand years had gone exactly as he imagined. Those thoughts don't seem like they originated from Wit himself, but are highly influenced by Odium's touch. It seems like Odium planted something that will be effecting Wit's mind unless/until it is discovered and rooted out. Edited November 24, 2020 by humanchaos 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realmatic Shadow Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 I think that, in the whole, Wit came out for the worse in this interaction. He was not aware that Rayse was no longer at the helm of Odium, and did not expect him to be able to see and manipulate his Breaths. There are enough clues in the final interaction that Wit could piece together and find out what occurred, so I don't think this is entirely bad for Wit, but he certainly didn't come out of this on top. One thing I desperately hope is that Hoid has a store of his memories 'backed-up' somewhere else, so this apparent tampering of his stored memories can be remedied. As a whole though, that would ruin one big implication of this epilogue: Hoid is not infallible, or immune to being manipulated by Shards, so I'm not thinking it's very likely this is true. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiePie Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 I don't think Wit's genuine terror is enough to confirm either side... Even if he had planned for Odium to take the memory (or to tamper with it) he would still feel afraid. When you've lived for thousands of years as the next best thing to a god, it would be terrifying to have your memories messed with, whether or not you knew it was coming. Plus being the god of emotions and all that, Hoid would want to put up a show for Odium in order to trick him. And the conversation about tricks and illusions seems out of place if Hoid wasn't planning something... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humanchaos Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 Quote For the first time in a long, long while, Wit felt true terror. If Odium destroyed the breaths that held his memories... I just can't seriously read/hear (audiobook) that line and feel that losing those memories/breaths was any part of Wit's plan. "True terror" is not having a planned for action happen to you, no matter how frightening it is. You don't feel "true terror" if the expected happens. You also don't suddenly begin to think about the implications of losing the breathes/memories if this was planned for. Wit's opening monologue does make it seem that me may have been planning something, but I'd say this was the red herring more than the breaths if there is one. I mean, on the second pass, his monologue falls apart, just like his plans. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FollowYourMuse Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 4 hours ago, humanchaos said: I just can't seriously read/hear (audiobook) that line and feel that losing those memories/breaths was any part of Wit's plan. "True terror" is not having a planned for action happen to you, no matter how frightening it is. You don't feel "true terror" if the expected happens. You also don't suddenly begin to think about the implications of losing the breathes/memories if this was planned for. Wit's opening monologue does make it seem that me may have been planning something, but I'd say this was the red herring more than the breaths if there is one. I mean, on the second pass, his monologue falls apart, just like his plans. My speculation is that Wit was not the winner, but that the build up of his monologue suggests that the "memories" stored may not be the full truth, and instead tell a false story. So not a complete failure. The terror is from the breaths being destroyed, not Odium learning them. T-Odium is not as subtle, is new to the power and though he came out ahead by changing Hoids memories. Not knowing more than it was just investiture, he stole them in the process leaving clues that something happened. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTuninator Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, Solant said: I mean, you can set a trap with yourself as the bait, and still be frightened when the trap is sprung, because you are still at the mercy of a hateful shard. I think it was intentional because he said that it went exactly how he expected it to. I also believe that the secret lies in the coins somehow, because we know he has access to (BoM) Reveal hidden contents Unkeyed metal minds. Bonus tinfoil hat theory: what if you can create and store fake memories with light weaving? Eh, I just don't buy it. I think people may be so used to Wit/Hoid as this unconquerable trickster demigod that they have difficulty accepting the idea that someone may have stolen a march on him for once, but personally I think that was the entire point of this scene - to drive home how scary Taravangian-as-Odium is by having him best Hoid, the guy who has come out on top against Odium for thousands of years. As other posters have also said, there's just no way to rationalize away "true terror" from a third-person limited narrator as somehow part of the plan. Wit didn't know that Odium had changed, and the rest flows logically from there. Unreliable narrators can lie about a lot to the audience, but they can't lie about gut emotional reactions - only a first-person narrator who's speaking directly to the audience can do that. Remember, he said it went exactly like he expected it to after Odium wiped his memory of the part which didn't go as expected in order to try again. Edited November 24, 2020 by TheTuninator 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlejandroTeodoro Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 What it’s difficult to believe is that without touching Hoid mind Odium can delete a remember of some seconds ago. I understand that Hoid keep most of his remembers in Breaths, but it’s a remember of seconds ago!! Maybe it didn’t have time even to pass from short time memory to long time memory!! How can Odium delete this memory without touching mind of Hoid?? Other aspecto to take into consideration is that Odium can not break is “promises” because we would have been weakened and then attacked and destroyed by Cultivation. However Cultivation seems like wanted revenge against Rayse, but until now she doesn’t look to be enemy of newOdium, so maybe she will not attack him. BTW, now I even feel bad about poor Rayse, he has been killed totally unexpected and substituted by an even bigger maniac 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirWolfe Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 My theory is that Hoid did a last minute switch with his memories, and the coins are metalminds as was suggested by @Solant. He may not have known that it would be Taravangian who now held Odium, but I think he was expecting that his mind would be in danger. If the coins were copper metalminds, he might've shoved some of the more important memories (maybe including the memory that he'd used the metalmind in the first place) held in his Breaths into the coin as the Breaths themselves are being stolen or destroyed. By pairing this with allowing some of his less important memories to be lost (similar to how Sja-Anat allows some of her "children" to be used as a distraction for the more important ones), Hoid could preserve the necessary information without revealing that he still had it. Remember, the best lies are the ones that have elements of truth in them. Hoid isn't some all powerful or omnipotent demigod, but remember that he's very good at doing just the right thing at just the right moment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynegrantham Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 17 hours ago, Shuffel said: His real memories are in the coins. He baited big T with the memories stored in his breath I really like this comment. The other thought I had was that "some" Breaths can be "parked" in an item. Vasher does this in WB. Hoid realizing his pitch is gone. Will reclaim stored Breaths (coin) and keep on. But wowzers! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Second-of-the-Dawn Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 I think that Hoid has been doing this for way too long for those to be his only memories. Even if T-Odium did best him in that exchange,which is probable, Hoid would have other memory caches. Like @Solant suggested, maybe the coins are his backup storage, either with Breaths stored there, or a metalmind, like the ins in BoM. He does seem to come back to them over an over again throughout the epilogue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiaOmi Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 17 hours ago, humanchaos said: Those thoughts don't seem like they originated from Wit himself, but are highly influenced by Odium's touch. It seems like Odium planted something that will be effecting Wit's mind unless/until it is discovered and rooted out. I read this bit as Odium reading in Wit's mind how he expected their meeting to go, and them playing his part in the replay to meet Wit's expectations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kinetus Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 7 hours ago, TheTuninator said: As other posters have also said, there's just no way to rationalize away "true terror" from a third-person limited narrator as somehow part of the plan. Possible explanation for the "true terror": Perhaps Hoid erased all his memories of whatever his plan/contingency was. After all, it would be a bit of a giveaway if Odium saw a memory of Hoid manipulating his own memories. Thus Hoid was not aware of any backup plan during the conversation and felt "true terror". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTuninator Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Kinetus said: Possible explanation for the "true terror": Perhaps Hoid erased all his memories of whatever his plan/contingency was. After all, it would be a bit of a giveaway if Odium saw a memory of Hoid manipulating his own memories. Thus Hoid was not aware of any backup plan during the conversation and felt "true terror". Could be - but I think this as well founders on the rocks of the fact that we, as the readers, actually know something Hoid does not in this scene, which is that Odium has changed hands. (Somebody else made this observation in a different thread, I think, and it's a good point). Regardless of whichever elaborate backups he might have, it's undeniable that he's walking into this encounter misinformed, since there is no way for him to know that Odium has changed hands & his narration further indicates that he believes he is about to speak with Rayse. He is unequivocally on the back foot in at least that one regard. We can postulate that he's got some elaborate multi-dimensional chess gambit, but if he was fundamentally unprepared for Taravangian at the wheel, it becomes much harder for me to believe that he's still nonetheless completely in control of the situation, especially when there's not a clear narrative purpose for this scene if it's "Hoid runs rings around everyone again for the 10th time" vs. "Hoid gets cut down to size by the new villain to show how dangerous he is". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shuffel Posted November 24, 2020 Report Share Posted November 24, 2020 (edited) 20 hours ago, humanchaos said: Also, not only being able to see the "investiture", but detecting that they contained memories, implies that he'd be able to see if the coins were similarly invested. With that, I believe Wit's contemplation and worry that the breaths holding his memories would be "destroyed," as it was put, was real, unexpected, and a legitimate fear that Wit did not anticipate nor want to happen. I think gods have a problem seeing metal? I may be wrong about this That is why he could see the breaths but not the memories in the coin. As for the terror, have you ever been really afraid of something, but did it anyways? Edit: Just some thoughts i just had. Why would Hoid make himself vulnerable to a God without a plan. Was Hoids plan just to rust talk him? He must of put himself at risk for a very good reason. Otherwise what benefit could Wit get from exposing himself? Did Rayse promise not to mess with his memories in the past? Hoid must of known his memories were at risk when looking to speak with a God. How did Tarvangian even outwit Hoid here? All he did was mess with his memories, Rayse must of had this power as well. Edit: #2 Hoid was terrified because he didn't remeber storing his memories in the metal mind Edited November 25, 2020 by Shuffel 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight of Iron Posted September 23, 2021 Report Share Posted September 23, 2021 I thought I'd update this considering this has been answered as per WOB: Spoiler Questioner My friends and I have been endlessly debating whether Wit knew what happened to him at the end of Rhythm, when he said "that went exactly as I planned," if he knew he was gonna get duped? Or if he got hornswoggled? Brandon Sanderson He legitimately got hornswoggled. One of the opening chapters of the next book is going to be him realizing that. There's a little teaser for you. FanX 2021 (Sept. 16, 2021) 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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