Certain part of the epilogue [Discuss]

[LewsTherinTelescope]

While I don't expect it to be particularly important, I've gathered the difference in Hoid's two conversations with Todd in the epilogue just in case:

 

Before:

Quote

“You’ve always been a clever one,” Wit said. “Was it my diction that clued you in, my keen bargaining abilities, or the fact that I included my name in the text?”

After:

Quote

“You’ve always been a clever one,” Wit said. “Was it my brilliant prose that clued you in, my keen bargaining abilities, or the fact that I included my name right there for you to read?”

 

Before:

Quote

“Sense, Odium. The only kind I have is nonsense. Well, and some cents, but cents are nonsense here too—so we can ignore them. Scents are mine aplenty, and you never cared for the ones I present. So instead, the sense that matters is the sense Dalinar sensibly sent you.”

After:

Quote

“Sense, Odium. The only kind I have is nonsense. Well, and some cents…” He glanced down at the coin he still held in his hand, then cocked his head.

 

Before:

Quote

“Rayse, dear,” Wit said, “you’re supposed to be an idiot. Say intelligent things like that too much, and I’ll need to reevaluate. I know you adjusted the contract, trying for an advantage. How does it feel to know that Dalinar bested you?”

After:

Quote

“Rayse,” Wit said, looking up, “you’re supposed to be an idiot. Say intelligent things like that too much, and I’ll need to reevaluate.… Anyway, I know you adjusted the contract, trying for an advantage. How does it feel to know that Dalinar Kholin, a simple mortal, has gotten the better of you?”

 

Before:

Quote

“Enjoy that!” Wit said, striding toward the door. “Let me know how the brooding treats you. I spent a century doing it once, and I think it improved my complexion.”

After:

Quote

“Yes, well,” Wit said from the door, “once you’re done, at least try to remember to wash your hands.”

 

Before:

Quote

“Yes, but where will you find that many willing horses…” Wit said, continuing on his way out the door. He started whistling as Odium’s presence remained behind.

After:

Quote

“Enjoy that!” Wit said, striding toward the door. “Let me know how you enjoy the time with yourself. The Beyond knows, no one else can stand your company.”

 

The other differences are not part of the dialogue, just Hoid noticing things being wrong. These should be all the dialogue differences, as Todd says the same things both times (with the obvious exception).

(Apologies if someone already did this and I missed it.)

[Halyo_Alex]

33 minutes ago, beewall said:

Todd says the same things both times

*giggling way too much at this*

[ftl]

The funny thing is, reading those, we still don't really know who got the better of that exchange.

Obviously, the first reading of it is that Hoid screwed up and Toadium got the better of him, based on the terror that Hoid feels when Toadium figures out that he can mess with Hoid's memories.

But the bits with Hoid looking down at the coin could indicate that he's figured out that his memories have been messed with, and in fact the whole prelude about lying to people by making them think you've lived a thousand lives (and the bits about the coin tricks) could indicate that Hoid knew his Breath-memories were a red herring, and were a successful ruse.

Edited November 22, 2020 by ftl

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, ftl said:

But the bits with Hoid looking down at the coin could indicate that he's figured out that his memories have been messed with, and in fact the whole prelude about lying to people by making them think you've lived a thousand lives (and the bits about the coin tricks) could indicate that Hoid knew his Breath-memories were a red herring, and were a successful ruse.

It does not end there. The memory alteration may not be the true attack. Taravangian may place a memory bomb to hide that he needed to copy the memories. And he may genuinely care for the answer to the question whom the coaltion expect him to send and he had to ask the question to be sure that Hoid considered the question and remembered the answer.

[+honorblades]

1 hour ago, ftl said:

. . . could indicate that Hoid knew his Breath-memories were a red herring, and were a successful ruse.

this was my exact thought while reading this sequence. With Hoid’s monologue leading up to this moment - which is all about tricking someone into seeing what they want to see - I think Hoid expected to have his memories stolen here. 
 

Otherwise, what was the point of this? Exposing himself completely to Rayse-Odium, a being who before seemed to want to kill Hoid on sight, just for the chance to gloat? About a contest that isn’t even won yet? That just seems.. not as clever as the Hoid we know. 
 

If nothing else, there is more than meets the eye here. I am firmly in the camp that Hoid is planting these “memories” for T-Odium for an ulterior motive. 

[Karger]

4 minutes ago, lightweaver spy said:

Otherwise, what was the point of this? Exposing himself completely to Rayse-Odium, a being who before seemed to want to kill Hoid on sight, just for the chance to gloat? About a contest that isn’t even won yet? That just seems.. not as clever as the Hoid we know. 

I agree that Hoid is probably playing an angle here.  I don't think he knew about Taravangian at the time.  Perhaps he just wanted to gauge Rayse's mental state?  He probably does not have many opportunities to do so.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

4 hours ago, lightweaver spy said:

this was my exact thought while reading this sequence. With Hoid’s monologue leading up to this moment - which is all about tricking someone into seeing what they want to see - I think Hoid expected to have his memories stolen here. 
 

Otherwise, what was the point of this? Exposing himself completely to Rayse-Odium, a being who before seemed to want to kill Hoid on sight, just for the chance to gloat? About a contest that isn’t even won yet? That just seems.. not as clever as the Hoid we know. 
 

If nothing else, there is more than meets the eye here. I am firmly in the camp that Hoid is planting these “memories” for T-Odium for an ulterior motive. 

I think Toadium stole Hoids memories . I have long believed Hoids true purpose is to put Adonalsium back together again . He was there when Adonalsium was shattered which gives him unique knowledge . Do we really want Teravangion the master schemer with that kind of information .

[teknopathetic]

Hold does say "Rayse" a bit too much in my opinion...

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

Hold does say "Rayse" a bit too much in my opinion...

Two interpretations. Either he knows. Or he wants to widen a split between Shard and Vessel he suspects.

[Hayama]

The last line gives me hope that Wit somehow is the one that got ahead: that it "had gone exactly as he had imagined." Still, that epilogue was truly terrifying.

[Infinity Sliver]

21 hours ago, Hayama said:

The last line gives me hope that Wit somehow is the one that got ahead: that it "had gone exactly as he had imagined." Still, that epilogue was truly terrifying.

The last fine reinforced,for me,that Odium won that exchange and actually altered Wit's memory. That epilogue scared me,Wit had always been somewhat deific for me and outside of the story but still in it,and this book shatered that and well,the epilogue...man

[Hayama]

15 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

The last fine reinforced,for me,that Odium won that exchange and actually altered Wit's memory. That epilogue scared me,Wit had always been somewhat deific for me and outside of the story but still in it,and this book shatered that and well,the epilogue...man

To me, there were enough oddities that it could go either way. That said, I fear you are right. I think a lot of us are probably feeling that way about Wit after this book.

[FollowYourMuse]

I think there are enough oddities that this was not a one or the other won situation, both played, dirty tricks. If it were exactly as he imagined it, that mean either way.

The fear He shows is actually one of the things that leads me to beleive he was playing Odium.
For someone like Hoid to "panic" is odd, but then what can odium sense? emotions, Passions. Oh no don't take my important memories in these breaths! That just seems too obvious for a trickster like Hoid.
Loosing the breaths along with those memories, and losing the memories of the visit is what I think he may not have expected. 

 

[+Bliev]

4 hours ago, Hayama said:

To me, there were enough oddities that it could go either way. That said, I fear you are right. I think a lot of us are probably feeling that way about Wit after this book.

Yes, this was a *very* important epilogue for us Cosmere folks for sure. Brandon said he'd waiting a long time to write that Wit epilogue, so I think it must be a critical turning point of sorts. The question is--what kind?

My thoughts:

1. We have been waiting for a Wit/Rayse face-to-face for a while, particularly since his letters in the epigraphs. So maybe that's what makes it important--a fulfillment of something we've been waiting for.

2. We find out how Wit stays so sharp, compared to other immortal-esque beings. So maybe it's the lore that makes it important. 

3. This is the moment that Wit loses his advantage, and will ultimately be his undoing. So maybe it's Cosmere-wide plot-related that makes it important. 

Or all of the above. lol

A couple things here--I don't think T-Odium could have stolen or changed too many memories. He notes particularly that he's bound by the "do no harm" clause, so how many memories/breaths could he have stolen without "causing harm"? He also knows now what Wit's done, at least in terms of which memories were stored, so he has more intel than Wit does--Wit still doesn't know that Rayse is dead, no one does.

The question is when will he realize his breaths are gone...he does notice his lack of perfect pitch at the end. The key will be how many memories are missing and which ones...

[StormingTexan]

I was reading this on my Kindle and when it started over again I legit thought there was an error on the ebook until the first text discrepancy I noticed and had to go back and look. 

 

 

[Solant]

BoM

Spoiler

Part of me keeps wondering if his coins are metal mind coins like we see him with in era 2, and the entire scene wasn't a setup in Hoid's part to slip Odium some information intentionally, considering how he is always where he needs to be. I can't help but assume that everything Hoid does is deliberate.

Quote

I was reading this on my Kindle and when it started over again I legit thought there was an error on the ebook until the first text discrepancy I noticed and had to go back and look. 

Haha, I did the same thing

Edited November 23, 2020 by Solant
Added 2nd part

[Ixthos]

25 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Yes, this was a *very* important epilogue for us Cosmere folks for sure. Brandon said he'd waiting a long time to write that Wit epilogue, so I think it must be a critical turning point of sorts. The question is--what kind?

My thoughts:

1. We have been waiting for a Wit/Rayse face-to-face for a while, particularly since his letters in the epigraphs. So maybe that's what makes it important--a fulfillment of something we've been waiting for.

2. We find out how Wit stays so sharp, compared to other immortal-esque beings. So maybe it's the lore that makes it important. 

3. This is the moment that Wit loses his advantage, and will ultimately be his undoing. So maybe it's Cosmere-wide plot-related that makes it important. 

Or all of the above. lol

A couple things here--I don't think T-Odium could have stolen or changed too many memories. He notes particularly that he's bound by the "do no harm" clause, so how many memories/breaths could he have stolen without "causing harm"? He also knows now what Wit's done, at least in terms of which memories were stored, so he has more intel than Wit does--Wit still doesn't know that Rayse is dead, no one does.

The question is when will he realize his breaths are gone...he does notice his lack of perfect pitch at the end. The key will be how many memories are missing and which ones...

Most likely the third one - a reminder that Hoid is not omnipotent, and he can make mistakes. Without this scene we might continue to think Wit infalibale. This shows us he can still be outmanoeuvred.

Though I don't think he lost any Breaths, but rather they were damaged, which is why he thinks they have been fiddled with. He doesn't think they are gone, only that they aren't working correctly - they are there, but they aren't doing what they are supposed to.

[+Bliev]

12 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

Most likely the third one - a reminder that Hoid is not omnipotent, and he can make mistakes. Without this scene we might continue to think Wit infalibale. This shows us he can still be outmanoeuvred.

Though I don't think he lost any Breaths, but rather they were damaged, which is why he thinks they have been fiddled with. He doesn't think they are gone, only that they aren't working correctly - they are there, but they aren't doing what they are supposed to.

That's what I thought at first until he noted that his perfect pitch was off. I thought perhaps Todd had only messed with the one short term memory that revealed Rayse was no more. Then I concluded they must have been removed, but perhaps the investiture is merely corrupted now?  

[Ixthos]

4 minutes ago, Bliev said:

That's what I thought at first until he noted that his perfect pitch was off. I thought perhaps Todd had only messed with the one short term memory that revealed Rayse was no more. Then I concluded they must have been removed, but perhaps the investiture is merely corrupted now?  

I think corrupted is more likely, indeed I was thinking in terms of a hard drive, the sectors corrupted. Any change - without removing the memory of how things were originally - would be a tip off to Hoid that something was wrong, as he clearly thinks he should still have perfect pitch, so he still feels like he has the right amount of Breath. Leave the Breaths but damage them - and Taravangian wouldn't have any experience with BioChroma, so he likely wouldn't know how his actions would affect it - means Hoid still has the same amount of investiture as before, only now they don't work quiet as well as they had, vs Odium taking them and Hoid now wondering where five of his Breaths went.

[Hayama]

3 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

I think there are enough oddities that this was not a one or the other won situation, both played, dirty tricks. If it were exactly as he imagined it, that mean either way.

The fear He shows is actually one of the things that leads me to beleive he was playing Odium.
For someone like Hoid to "panic" is odd, but then what can odium sense? emotions, Passions. Oh no don't take my important memories in these breaths! That just seems too obvious for a trickster like Hoid.
Loosing the breaths along with those memories, and losing the memories of the visit is what I think he may not have expected.

Hmm. Perhaps he put some false information in his breaths? Or imperfect information, maybe. If Hoid knew that he'd lost perfect pitch, he wouldn't have thought the encounter went exactly as imagined unless he knew what would happen. Unless, of course, he doesn't know what it is that was fiddling with his perfect pitch. I just don't know.

[Second-of-the-Dawn]

And the way he just dismissed that his perfect pitch was off? Way to off-hand for someone as tuned into the Cosmere as he is. He knew something happened to his breaths.

[SzethIsBadAsHell]

On 11/22/2020 at 1:08 AM, lightweaver spy said:

this was my exact thought while reading this sequence. With Hoid’s monologue leading up to this moment - which is all about tricking someone into seeing what they want to see - I think Hoid expected to have his memories stolen here. 
 

Otherwise, what was the point of this? Exposing himself completely to Rayse-Odium, a being who before seemed to want to kill Hoid on sight, just for the chance to gloat? About a contest that isn’t even won yet? That just seems.. not as clever as the Hoid we know. 
 

If nothing else, there is more than meets the eye here. I am firmly in the camp that Hoid is planting these “memories” for T-Odium for an ulterior motive. 

You may be right , I’m operating under some assumptions so bear with me . I think Wit knew Teravangion traded places with Rayse . Renarin knew so it’s possible . The way he said his name Rayse it just seemed like he was trying to trick Teravangion. . I’m assuming the reason Hoid is not insane despite being older than the Heralds is he stores his excess memories in breaths . So I’m assuming the memories that were stolen were the pre shattering ones . Rayse wouldn’t need those Teravangion does . So I know it’s a lot but it’s the best I could come up . Hoid has been hiding from Odium for a millennia . Teravangion found him a little to easy for it to be anything but a trap 

[FollowYourMuse]

3 hours ago, Hayama said:

Hmm. Perhaps he put some false information in his breaths? Or imperfect information, maybe. If Hoid knew that he'd lost perfect pitch, he wouldn't have thought the encounter went exactly as imagined unless he knew what would happen. Unless, of course, he doesn't know what it is that was fiddling with his perfect pitch. I just don't know.

What made me think Hoid was setting odium up with false information is his monologue before hand, he basically says so. 

Quote

"The challenge," he said, "is to make everyone believe you've lived a thousand lives. Make them feel the pain you have not felt, make them see the sights you have not seen, and make them know the truths that you have made up." ~Wit Epilogue RoW

(emphasis mine) How do you give a Shard truths you made up? 

2 hours ago, SzethIsBadAsHell said:

 Hoid has been hiding from Odium for a millennia . Teravangion found him a little to easy for it to be anything but a trap 

He didn't just find him, Hoid the ultimate sneak and person who has stayed beyond notice and hidden made himself findable.  He has never been known before to do anything that is not planned out, and as he mentions to Shallan 
 

Quote

"There is, but they are oh so rare. These know they can't stop the boulder. So they walk beside it, study it, and bide their time. Then they shove it—ever so slightly—to create a deviation in its path." 

"These are the men .. well, these are the men who actually change the world. And they terrify me. For men never see as far as they think they do." 

Wit Ch. 68 OB

I always figured that Hoid was this third kind, setting up Odiun ( T or R) with false memories is just that kind of nudge. 

Edited November 24, 2020 by FollowYourMuse
clarification

[+Child of Hodor]

27 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

What made me think Hoid was setting odium up with false information is his monologue before hand, he basically says so. 

(emphasis mine) How do you give a Shard truths you made up? 

He didn't just find him, Hoid the ultimate sneak and person who has stayed beyond notice and hidden made himself findable.  He has never been known before to do anything that is not planned out, and as he mentions to Shallan 
 

I always figured that Hoid was this third kind, setting up Odiun ( T or R) with false memories is just that kind of nudge. 

Why would Rayse want to read his memories? They met 1,000 years ago and he apparently didn’t do it then. Rayse was alive pre-Shattering and has been a god ever since what does he need with some of Wit’s memories? Wit is even surprised Rayse asked him a question at all.

The only way Wit could have planned this great subterfuge, a subterfuge where he even needs to pretend to be surprised and scared in his mind even though Odium can’t read his mind, is if he knew in  advance that Rayse is dead and there is a new vessel. Which really doesn’t seem to be the case. 

Maybe, just maybe Brandon’s author avatar who is great everything finally made a mistake. 

As Sazed points out in the epigraphs Wit doesn’t completely understand the Shards. Which is what Frost has been warning him about all along as well. He messed with something he doesn’t understand and it bit him. For once. 

[TheTuninator]

On 11/22/2020 at 0:33 AM, ftl said:

The funny thing is, reading those, we still don't really know who got the better of that exchange.

Obviously, the first reading of it is that Hoid screwed up and Toadium got the better of him, based on the terror that Hoid feels when Toadium figures out that he can mess with Hoid's memories.

But the bits with Hoid looking down at the coin could indicate that he's figured out that his memories have been messed with, and in fact the whole prelude about lying to people by making them think you've lived a thousand lives (and the bits about the coin tricks) could indicate that Hoid knew his Breath-memories were a red herring, and were a successful ruse.

The third-person limited narrator states that Hoid felt genuine terror prior to Odium sucking out his memories. That's not something subject to the whims of an unreliable narrator; it'd have to be a first-person narrator to lie to the audience. I think Taravangian genuinely played Hoid here, which serves to indicate how much more dangerous he may be as Odium, as he succeeded in besting Hoid on his first try while the old Odium failed for thousands of years.