On unmaking and the Unmade

[+Czernobog]

Raboniel refers to her actions against the Sibling specifically as "unmaking" it. Is that the same process by which all of the Unmade were un-ed? Replacing their stormlight or lifelight with voidlight?

[Sparks]

I feel like it was a big hint at the origins of the Unmade.  I bet we get some origin scenes or talk of how Sja-anat came to be when it's time.

[Nymeros]

Still the question remains.....what were they originally? We know they were made and then unmade but was their original form before their unmaking? We still have no idea.

[+Ptolema]

Yeah, was thinking about this earlier, I feel like between the mentions of "Unmaking" and the fact that Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture seems to have hurt all spren, it's almost like the Unmade that we know of are being set up to turn out to be important parts of Roshar, maybe former spren of another source that were essential prior to their unmaking/corruption.

[LiftIRL]

Maybe they were Radiant Spren? since there are 9 unmade and 9 types of Regular Radiants with Regular Spren. and the sibling itself is a spren, so it might be possible to corrupt other spren by corrupting their investiture.

On second thought, if they were a type of Regular Sentient Spren made into a Big Sentient Spren they would probably made from voidspren, not radiant spren. so maybe i'm a fool.

[NysemePtem]

If Raboniel had succeeded, and the extent of the Sibling's consciousness had been discovered, would they have become the 10th Unmade?

If so, this suggests that Roshar was home to numerous Bondsmith-level (or near bondsmith level) spren, and possibly an entire shadesmar ecology of superspren which Odium then corrupted. It also suggests that Bondsmiths aren't actually limited to 3 members, their Spren species is just endangered .

 

I'm also surprised that the Sibling is the child of Honor and Cultivation, I'd seen some WOB  indicating that their child would be human with some extra abilities, not a Spren. 

[+Bliev]

51 minutes ago, NysemePtem said:

I'm also surprised that the Sibling is the child of Honor and Cultivation, I'd seen some WOB  indicating that their child would be human with some extra abilities, not a Spren. 

I think that was referring to actual children of the vessels, not necessarily children of the power—there are probably hints here to how spren reproduce, going to places where investiture coalesces and providing Intent. My take on this was not a literal child, but a spren child, where both powers combined their Investiture and used their Intent to create a spren. Like how Honor created the SF or cultivation the NW.

[NysemePtem]

59 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I think that was referring to actual children of the vessels, not necessarily children of the power—there are probably hints here to how spren reproduce, going to places where investiture coalesces and providing Intent. My take on this was not a literal child, but a spren child, where both powers combined their Investiture and used their Intent to create a spren. Like how Honor created the SF or cultivation the NW.

Yes, that makes sense. So when was the Sibling created? And was it somehow designed to inhabit Urithiru? Does Urithiru predate the Sibling, do they predate Urithiru, or were they created at the exact same time by the same action? Did the Sibling actually create Urithiru, or did the KR build the whole structure and add in fabrials and all that, and then the Sibling just stepped into it? 

What is Navani's connection with Light? The Sibling creates Towerlight, and it seems Navani can too. But what can it be used for? It powers Fabrials, or at least the tower's fabrials. Can Navani use Towerlight to power her Surgebinding? If she infuses other people with Towerlight, can they power Surgebinding with it? If so, it could solve the Weeping problem or mitigate it. 

Even if I'm wrong about Navani producing Towerlight or it powering Surgbeinding, Stormlight can be extracted from it - if slowly. 

[+Bliev]

11 minutes ago, NysemePtem said:

Yes, that makes sense. So when was the Sibling created? And was it somehow designed to inhabit Urithiru? Does Urithiru predate the Sibling, do they predate Urithiru, or were they created at the exact same time by the same action? Did the Sibling actually create Urithiru, or did the KR build the whole structure and add in fabrials and all that, and then the Sibling just stepped into it? 

I thought that Navani implies that the tower is the Sibling’s “body” manifest in the physical realm, much like soulcasters:

Quote

Soulcasters didn’t hold spren because they were spren. Manifesting in the Physical Realm like Shardblades. Spren became metal on this side. Somehow the ancient spren had been coaxed into manifesting as Soulcasters instead of Blades?

So while Fabrials capture spren, soulcasters *are* spren. 

Navani says to the Sibling:

Quote

And the heating fabrials … not important now … but you’ve made housings for them out of metals—you manifested physically as metal and crystal, like Shardblades manifest from smaller spren.

So I think the Sibling made the tower, well at least the fabrials?

[+Ptolema]

2 hours ago, Bliev said:

I thought that Navani implies that the tower is the Sibling’s “body” manifest in the physical realm, much like soulcasters:

So while Fabrials capture spren, soulcasters *are* spren. 

Navani says to the Sibling:

So I think the Sibling made the tower, well at least the fabrials?

Going by this Kaladin quote, I'd been assuming the tower itself is literally just the Sibling's manifested body.

Quote

"I bring word from the Sibling!" he shouted. "They don't remember inviting you in. And considering that they aren't merely the master of this house, they literally are this house, your actions are quite the insult."

 

[Ytsken]

2 hours ago, Bliev said:

I thought that Navani implies that the tower is the Sibling’s “body” manifest in the physical realm, much like soulcasters:

You are completely right. Urithiru is the Sibling's 'body', as is quite humorously made clear in the following quote:
 

Quote

 

“"I bring word from the Sibling!” he shouted. “They don’t remember inviting you in. And considering that they aren’t merely the master of this house, they literally are this house, your actions are quite the insult.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

 

[+Bliev]

19 minutes ago, Ptolema said:

Going by this Kaladin quote, I'd been assuming the tower itself is literally just the Sibling's manifested body.

 

That was my original thought too, and the fabrials for sure are the sibling manifest, but then I got to thinking that spren manifest in the PR seemed to be metal/gemstones and not necessarily building stone, re: the stone in the tower speaking to Venli. But I think we should take kal’s word for it for sure. 

[Necessary Eagle]

13 hours ago, Ptolema said:

Yeah, was thinking about this earlier, I feel like between the mentions of "Unmaking" and the fact that Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture seems to have hurt all spren, it's almost like the Unmade that we know of are being set up to turn out to be important parts of Roshar, maybe former spren of another source that were essential prior to their unmaking/corruption.

"Whoops, my bad... where did we sink Nergoul, again? *sigh* Time to call in the Windrunner Diving Corps..."

[seriodor]

I think maybe the Unmade used to be the spren through which Honor and Cultivation enacted all their changes on Roshar. Maybe Sja-Anat is the originator of all sentient spren, like the mechanism she uses to corrupt spren was originally how honor was introduced to Windspren to make Honorspren. In Ba-Ado-Mishram's case, she was how Cultivation added the whole gemheart system to Roshar, where all the creatures have little crystal radios inside them that can react to investiture. Nergaoul might have been a more noble version of the thrill, something created by Honor to inspires people to stand and fight in the defense of others etc.

Edited November 22, 2020 by seriodor

[Halyo_Alex]

7 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

"Whoops, my bad... where did we sink Nergoul, again? *sigh* Time to call in the Windrunner Diving Corps..."

call the Lopen, he'll find it in mere minutes.

[JoeDealwithit]

11 hours ago, NysemePtem said:

Yes, that makes sense. So when was the Sibling created? And was it somehow designed to inhabit Urithiru? Does Urithiru predate the Sibling, do they predate Urithiru, or were they created at the exact same time by the same action? Did the Sibling actually create Urithiru, or did the KR build the whole structure and add in fabrials and all that, and then the Sibling just stepped into it? 

What is Navani's connection with Light? The Sibling creates Towerlight, and it seems Navani can too. But what can it be used for? It powers Fabrials, or at least the tower's fabrials. Can Navani use Towerlight to power her Surgebinding? If she infuses other people with Towerlight, can they power Surgebinding with it? If so, it could solve the Weeping problem or mitigate it. 

Even if I'm wrong about Navani producing Towerlight or it powering Surgbeinding, Stormlight can be extracted from it - if slowly. 

I think the Sibling is the spren of the Knights Radiant. By that, I mean that the Oaths and Ideals (the method of swearing oaths to progress one’s character) are the conjunction of Cultivation and Honor’s impact on the system. So, the Sibling is the embodiment of the organization of the Knights Radiant, as the Stormfather is the embodiment of the Highstorm. This conjunction is like how Navani sees fabrials as order (of Honor) imposed on nature (of Cultivation).

[NysemePtem]

Yes, that's an interesting possibility. There's  quote in part 2  about the Sibling being created to fight Odium.

[Awakened Cremling]

I think all of the Unmade were prominent spren of varying powers that Odium Unmade as Raboniel tried with the Sibilings. Some were more important than others, such as Mishram, as her capture had wide ranging implications. Sja-anat also seems to think that they can be "Unmade" again which would wipe her memories/identity.

[VirtuousTraveller]

I think there’s a WoB that says that the Unmade are splinters of Odium?

[Brgst13]

To the identity of the Unmade:

1. There are 9 Unmade, and 9 orders of Fused.

2. Raboniel was trying to Unmake the Sibling.

3. Fused are able to access Rosharan Surges, and seem to have been able to do so for a long time.

4. Spren have not bonded with the Singers for millenia.

5. There must be a pathway for the Fused to access the Surges.

6. Surges are a concept, a way of understanding the actions of Investiture.

7. Spren are expressions of concepts.

8. Red is the color of corrupted Investiture.

My theory: the Unmade are the corrupted spren of each Surge the Fused have access to.  This Corruption allows the Fused to access that Surge.  Corrupting the Sibling may have allowed the development of a 10th Order of Fused.  

[seriodor]

2 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

6. Surges are a concept, a way of understanding the actions of Investiture.

I'm pretty sure Surges are actually laws written on reality by Honor. That's what Raboniel says at least, and the way that they're all downgraded versions of Yolen powers seems to support this.

[Brgst13]

I agree with you, but they are also a cognitive concept.  

[Commander Azure]

9 Unmade. The Sibling. What's 9+1? 10? Now, above, some people have theorized about how each Unmade corresponds to one order of Fused, and how Honor's Surge is unavailable to the Fused. Therefore, by corrupting the Sibling, they could get access to Adhesion. Which makes me think that each of those spren (the Unmade, the Sibling) corresponds to one Surge. However, the hole in my reasoning is that the Nightwatcher and Stormfather exist too. How valid do you think this is, however? On a side note, the reason the Radiants have two Surges and the Fused have one is because the Fused are of one Shard and the Radiants of two.