Thaidakar the Knowledge and Possibilities

[Honorless]

On 11/24/2020 at 10:08 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Saze CHOSE not to intervene, because of his beliefs. That’s what Marsh says.

Kell would have no issue with Saze telling him ‘here is how you keep yourself sane.’

I said briefly. Just like Saze can hold back a Kandra, I think he can temporarily cut Kell off from alomancy. Particularly since he’d be Ruining Kell’s connection to Preservation but also be doing it to Preserve Kell - and everyone else!

I doubt Saze would have an issue reclaiming his Investiture. His Ruin half would be fine with it, and Preservation never liked being attached to Kell anyway. Saze would also be reuniting the power, which is naturally drawn to itself. He’d also be Preserving the ‘real’ Kell, as Saze DOES believe there is something Beyond.

Harmony would want to maintain equilibrium. Kell upsets equilibriums by existing. Harmony does not like Kelsier. Sazed does. I think they’d both be okay with this.

Shards cannot really stop someone from accessing their Investiture,

Quote

RandyD

Can a Shard just--like, say someone is using their magic system--can they stop the power from them being able to use it?

Brandon Sanderson

No, that's a bit like stopping the laws of physics. So, while they can circumvent laws of physics and things like that, but if you wanted to stop someone from using magic, smiting them would be the efficient way of making that happen, if you are capable of it in the system.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

Scadrians and indeed Scadrial itself were made from Preservation and Ruin's power though, so Harmony should theoretically be capable of smiting, conflicting Intents aside.

[Kingsdaughter613]

14 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Shards cannot really stop someone from accessing their Investiture,

Scadrians and indeed Scadrial itself were made from Preservation and Ruin's power though, so Harmony should theoretically be capable of smiting, conflicting Intents aside.

Kell is literally a piece of Preservation. I think that power could be reabsorbed, which would cause him to go Beyond after a short time.

[Honorless]

29 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kell is literally a piece of Preservation. I think that power could be reabsorbed, which would cause him to go Beyond after a short time.

Yes. Literally what I said in my second paragraph.

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

Shards cannot really stop someone from accessing their Investiture,

Scadrians and indeed Scadrial itself were made from Preservation and Ruin's power though, so Harmony should theoretically be capable of smiting, conflicting Intents aside.

Should he? Isn't "Be preserved!" a promise?

[Honorless]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Should he? Isn't "Be preserved!" a promise?

Would he? As Sazed? His mind is still his own. Could he? If he does that, wouldn't that make the Preservation side of him just a bit weaker? I don't know if that constitutes as a promise from a Shard, it might not have been

Quote

Nameless36

All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that.

Brandon Sanderson

So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual Oath. And they did not get one.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)

and if it was, well, Kelsier was preserved for a time, isn't it time he was ruined? Even if his predecessor's word binds him, Sazed isn't just Preservation, he's also Ruin.

[Kier]

I havent read all the posts in this thread, but wanted to put in my 2 cents.

Ive seen alot of talk around "the GBs can't be led by Kelsier because they are ruthless, killing random cabbies??" And the like.

Did you guys read a different Kelsier than me? Sure, Kel was MOSTLY a good guy and wanted a good outcome... but he was 100% the ends justify the means, and he was 100% your for me or agaisnt me. 

Your a skaa working for a noble? Have a coin through your skull, or a glass knife through the heart. You are in the way of my ambition. He was hardly moral, and I for one can 100% see him killing randos on other planets that are in the way of his goals.

[Karger]

7 hours ago, Kier said:

Did you guys read a different Kelsier than me? Sure, Kel was MOSTLY a good guy and wanted a good outcome... but he was 100% the ends justify the means, and he was 100% your for me or agaisnt me. 

I don't really see it that way.  Kelseir was absolutely ruthless and willing to employ violence.  We have all seen the kind of stunts he has pulled from killing guards who were just ordinary employees to fostering a civil war that costs thousands and eventually millions of lives.  At the same time he would never have hurt a member of his own crew.  He would never tolerate attempted murder as some kind of hazing ritual and he certainly would never do violence for the enjoyment of it.  Kelseir from era one would take one look at Mraize and cut his neck.

[Greywatch]

I don't know... MB

Spoiler

For me, Secret History was the time when most of my "but Kelsier wouldn't do that!" feelings got destroyed. I do need a reread but I remember feeling really unpleasantly surprised at what Kelsier was willing to do when released from the bonds of society and the fight against the Lord Ruler. MB Era 1 Kelsier is both no longer in play and also, not the man I thought he was.

 

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I don't really see it that way.  Kelseir was absolutely ruthless and willing to employ violence.  We have all seen the kind of stunts he has pulled from killing guards who were just ordinary employees to fostering a civil war that costs thousands and eventually millions of lives.  At the same time he would never have hurt a member of his own crew.  He would never tolerate attempted murder as some kind of hazing ritual and he certainly would never do violence for the enjoyment of it.  Kelseir from era one would take one look at Mraize and cut his neck.

To be fair, GBs are not allowed to harm one another.
 

Also worth noting that Iyatil and Mraize were disobeying by trying to recruit Shallan at all. The Rosharan group has canonically disobeyed once, which makes me question just how independent they are as a group.

[Karger]

8 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

lso worth noting that Iyatil and Mraize were disobeying by trying to recruit Shallan at all

What really?

8 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

To be fair, GBs are not allowed to harm one another.

The way Mraize states it though it is less loyalty for its own sake and more a "yeah we can't run an organization if we were killing each other all the time." 

56 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

I don't know... MB

With the possible exception of Elend(I would absolutely have done the same thing and I love Elend) Kel didn't do anything I would consider unethical.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Karger

[Kingsdaughter613]

35 minutes ago, Karger said:

What really?

The way Mraize states it though it is less loyalty for its own sake and more a "yeah we can't run an organization if we were killing each other all the time." 

With the possible exception of Elend(I would absolutely have done the same thing and I love Elend) Kel didn't do anything I would consider unethical.

Yeah, Mraize mentions that he and Iyatil decided to recruit Shallan despite being told not to. Well, specifically they were recruiting VEIL, as they had not been ordered NOT to recruit Veil. Which is some very nice exact words loophole. 

Edit: or so my husband told me during his reread of the series. But I can’t find it.

I’ll see if I can scrounge up the quote.

I read it as GBs being loyal to one another, United in a common purpose. Kell has always been good at instilling loyalty. Edit: Mraize says GBs are protective of one another.

Edit: did not find that, but I found the carriage driver scene. And a Sleepless! Mraize is talking to someone with a raspy voice.

BUT.

Shallan does not see who killed the coachman. She assumes it’s the GBs, but there doesn’t seem to be any actual evidence of it. She also seems to assume he gave permission for people to assassinate her - again without evidence.

Also: Jasnah is the one who tells Shallan the GBs attacked the ship, but we don’t know how Jasnah knows that. So... there’s certainly some confusion here.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Karger]

36 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Also: Jasnah is the one who tells Shallan the GBs attacked the ship, but we don’t know how Jasnah knows that. So... there’s certainly some confusion here.

We have confirmation of that both from Tyn and from Mraize himself.

37 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Shallan does not see who killed the coachman. She assumes it’s the GBs, but there doesn’t seem to be any actual evidence of it. She also seems to assume he gave permission for people to assassinate her - again without evidence.

No.  Mraize clearly states both the permission to hunt her and when she is eventually safe from GB members.

38 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Edit: did not find that, but I found the carriage driver scene. And a Sleepless! Mraize is talking to someone with a raspy voice.

That could mean a lot of things.

38 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Edit: or so my husband told me during his reread of the series. But I can’t find it.

Neither can I.  I don't think it is there.

[Kingsdaughter613]

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

We have confirmation of that both from Tyn and from Mraize himself.

No.  Mraize clearly states both the permission to hunt her and when she is eventually safe from GB members.

That could mean a lot of things.

Neither can I.  I don't think it is there.

Yeah, I think he may have misread.

Actually, he doesn’t. It’s implied and Shallan assumes. But we never actually see her being attacked, and he never says it, and we don’t know who killed the coachman. Her not needing to worry could mean they informed the other GBs.

Rereading it... I find I’m not as certain as I was the first time. We’re SUPPOSED to think it’s them, but we don’t KNOW. And Shallan was beginning to split at that point, so was really not a reliable narrator. I would not be surprised either way, honestly. Honestly, at this point she could have done it herself and I wouldn’t be shocked, lol!

Mraize says the GBs killed Jasnah, but he never mentions the ship. Jasnah is the one who says the GBs attacked the ship (which I think they did) but that isn’t something they themselves ever said.

Edit: I found the note to Tyn and it’s... interesting. 
 

For your part, there is no news of the target surviving. It seems that your worry about the mission’s failure is unfounded. Whatever happened aboard the ship, it worked to our favor. The Wind’s Pleasure is reported lost with all hands. Jasnah Kholin is dead.
Jasnah Kholin is dead. Shallan gaped, jaw dropping. That . . . it isn’t . . .

“Maybe those idiots did manage to complete the job,” Tyn said, satisfied. “It looks like I’ll be paid after all.”

“Your mission in Amydlatn,” Shallan whispered. “It was to assassinate Jasnah Kholin.”

“Run the operation, at least,” Tyn said, distracted. “Would have gone myself, but can’t stand ships. Those churning seas turn my stomach inside out. . . .”

Or: the person who was supposed to be doing the mission wasn’t doing it. She sent someone else... who may or may not have been behind the attack. So the GBs definitely ordered the hit on Jasnah, but Tyn ordered someone else to arrange it, and the actual person who attacked the ship is unknown. The GBs do not seem to have ordered the specific attack though.

Which implies quite the communications breakdown, if nothing else.

Edited November 30, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Kier]

12 hours ago, Karger said:

With the possible exception of Elend(I would absolutely have done the same thing and I love Elend) Kel didn't do anything I would consider unethical.

So, Kelsier, who I would guess probably KNOWS that Sazed left everything and anything out about Hemalurgy in his book to Spook... speaks to him over and over and gets him to spike himself for the SOLE purpose of finding a way to make a new thread for Kelsier to tie himself to the Physical Realm - going against what one of his best, long lasting, most loayl friends says, and after watching his most hated rival The Lord Ruler, and Vin, and Elend all pass to the Beyond... instead of following him like he knows he could, he pushes Spook to spike himself and paves the way for Hemalurgy to rise again on the renewed planet just so that Kelsier can have the satisfaction of retying his soul to the Physical Realm and learning about the cosmere. That sounds pretty unethical to me... and Sounds exactly like a starting point for a group like the Ghost Bloods. 

His goals are basically get as much knowledge and power about the Cosmere as possible and find a way to get me back inot the Physical Realm. I'm sorry if I burst your bubble but Kelsier isn't, and wasn't a good guy. yeah he liked his crew to trust eachother and to not work against one another ever. Oh... wait thats one of the core tenants of a Ghost Blood once you are in. Yeah Kelsier while in MB1 wouldn't have done things the way Marize does when recuriting Shallan. however, Kelsier is on another planet and probably dones't have as much oversight as he did when he runs things himself... and it has been 300 years since he became a CS. He probabaly changed... and I'd guess not for the best

[Karger]

15 minutes ago, Kier said:

So, Kelsier, who I would guess probably KNOWS that Sazed left everything and anything out about Hemalurgy in his book to Spook

Spook wrote that book himself.

15 minutes ago, Kier said:

speaks to him over and over and gets him to spike himself for the SOLE purpose of finding a way to make a new thread for Kelsier to tie himself to the Physical Realm

We in fact do not know that Spook ever spiked himself.  Yes Kelseir did explain hemalurgy to him but Spook already knew a lot about that and seems to have made his own decisions. 

16 minutes ago, Kier said:

instead of following him like he knows he could, he pushes Spook to spike himself and paves the way for Hemalurgy to rise again on the renewed planet just so that Kelsier can have the satisfaction of retying his soul to the Physical Realm and learning about the cosmere

Some people who survived the remaking already knew about hemalurgy including Spook, the kandra, Sazed, Marsh, and Trell.

18 minutes ago, Kier said:

I'm sorry if I burst your bubble but Kelsier isn't, and wasn't a good guy

That really depends what you mean.  He is an unquestionably dangerous individual but I would not characterize him as evil either.

[Kier]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Spook wrote that book himself.

You need to reread Hero of Ages my friend. Hero of Ages Page 723:
"Spook knelt beside them, listening to Ham and Breeze cry out. They examined teh bodies, checking for vital signs, but Spook focused on something else, almost hidden in the grass.
He picked it up - a large leather tome."

Sazed rote the history of the world. 

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

We in fact do not know that Spook ever spiked himself.  Yes Kelseir did explain hemalurgy to him but Spook already knew a lot about that and seems to have made his own decisions. 

Read the end of Secret History again.:
"A dream? he considered, then -- perhaps against his better judgement -- jabbed the rhing through his ear." -- Spook at the end of Secret History, the spike being made from an old inquisitor spike, and Kelsier apears when this happens and tells Spook basically "good job for listening to me, now we can really get to work on getting me back to the physical realm."

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Some people who survived the remaking already knew about hemalurgy including Spook, the kandra, Sazed, Marsh, and Trell.

Yes, although I feel like I read somewhere that Sazed... maybe its in Allow of Law... tried to reduce or limit knowledge of hemalurgy after the remaking.... or at the very least tried to warn Spook from playing with it... Which Spook promply ignored, and from the evidence he ignored it largely on the prompting and councel of Kelsier.

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

That really depends what you mean.  He is an unquestionably dangerous individual but I would not characterize him as evil either.

I wouldn't say Evil either. Chaotic Netural if we wanna go down that path - 100%. He has his goals, and for the most part I don't think Kelsier would set goals that intentionally harm innocient people. However his view of innocient is I'd say is quite broad.. Ie - He doesn't think a guard trying to work for his family in the Final Empire is innocient becuase he works for a noble. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Kier said:

You need to reread Hero of Ages my friend. Hero of Ages Page 723:
"Spook knelt beside them, listening to Ham and Breeze cry out. They examined teh bodies, checking for vital signs, but Spook focused on something else, almost hidden in the grass.
He picked it up - a large leather tome."

I am afraid it is you who need to review era 1 mistborn.  The tome left for Spook was the Historica one of the volumes of the Words of Founding in which Saze details the events of the original trilogy for future generations.  It is widely published and read by basically everyone in the entire basin although details on hemalurgy are edited out.  Late in his life Spook wrote his own book detailing his knowledge of hemalurgy.

1 hour ago, Kier said:

"A dream? he considered, then -- perhaps against his better judgement -- jabbed the rhing through his ear." -- Spook at the end of Secret History, the spike being made from an old inquisitor spike, and Kelsier apears when this happens and tells Spook basically "good job for listening to me, now we can really get to work on getting me back to the physical realm."

OK I was being unclear.  I meant to say we don't know if he went far enough to give himself actual powers with hemalurgy.  You could argue that Wax is spiked which would be a bit misleading although sort of true.

1 hour ago, Kier said:

Yes, although I feel like I read somewhere that Sazed... maybe its in Allow of Law... tried to reduce or limit knowledge of hemalurgy after the remaking.... or at the very least tried to warn Spook from playing with it... Which Spook promply ignored, and from the evidence he ignored it largely on the prompting and councel of Kelsier.

Sazed did work to avoid spreading knowledge of hemalurgy.  However Spook made his own decisions.  He may have been influenced by many people potentially including Marsh, Breeze, and Sazed himself all of who knew perfectly well the kind of person Kelseir was.  It is also worth noting that the book was written quite late in Spook's life when he was a functioning adult capable of making his own choices.

1 hour ago, Kier said:

However his view of innocient is I'd say is quite broad.. Ie - He doesn't think a guard trying to work for his family in the Final Empire is innocient becuase he works for a noble. 

Kelseir, at least in era one, would not have killed anyone for the thrill of it.  Mraize absolutely would.  There is a significant difference.

[Kingsdaughter613]

5 hours ago, Karger said:

I am afraid it is you who need to review era 1 mistborn.  The tome left for Spook was the Historica one of the volumes of the Words of Founding in which Saze details the events of the original trilogy for future generations.  It is widely published and read by basically everyone in the entire basin although details on hemalurgy are edited out.  Late in his life Spook wrote his own book detailing his knowledge of hemalurgy.

OK I was being unclear.  I meant to say we don't know if he went far enough to give himself actual powers with hemalurgy.  You could argue that Wax is spiked which would be a bit misleading although sort of true.

Sazed did work to avoid spreading knowledge of hemalurgy.  However Spook made his own decisions.  He may have been influenced by many people potentially including Marsh, Breeze, and Sazed himself all of who knew perfectly well the kind of person Kelseir was.  It is also worth noting that the book was written quite late in Spook's life when he was a functioning adult capable of making his own choices.

Kelseir, at least in era one, would not have killed anyone for the thrill of it.  Mraize absolutely would.  There is a significant difference.

Kell totally would have - so long as the person was a noble or affiliated with the nobility. Mraize would not kill for the thrill; Mraize kills for the hunt. He is very clinical.

Note that Kell goes South after ten years and spends a good chunk of the next century there. Spook wasn’t being directly influenced by him then.

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[Karger]

9 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kell totally would have - so long as the person was a noble or affiliated with the nobility

In that case it would be an exercise of anger not cruelty.  There is a difference.

10 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Mraize would not kill for the thrill; Mraize kills for the hunt. He is very clinical.

I would not describe him as clinical.  Neither would Lift.  He clearly enjoys "the hunt" for its own sake.  Either way we are drifting a bit off topic here.  Debating Kel's ethics is a highly time consuming and not particularly useful exercise.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Just now, Karger said:

In that case it would be an exercise of anger not cruelty.  There is a difference.

I would not describe him as clinical.  Neither would Lift.  He clearly enjoys "the hunt" for its own sake.  Either way we are drifting a bit off topic here.  Debating Kel's ethics is a highly time consuming and not particularly useful exercise.

Clinical does not mean ‘doesn’t enjoy.’ Kell kills passionately, but he does enjoy it and he enjoys the thrill. Mraize kills clinically, but with pleasure. Kell burns hot, while Mraize is cold. This isn’t about morals; it’s about personality.

[Allthepancakes]

On 22-11-2020 at 6:08 PM, Hayama said:

As to the WoB, I want to point out that I think you're reading that wrong. Brandon refused to confirm if Kelsier was even associated with the Ghostbloods, just dropping hints. This should be read as "Kelsier is indeed a leader of something, but not necessarily the Ghostbloods" rather than "Kelsier is one of the leaders of the Ghostbloods". Kelsier could indeed still be just one of a ruling council, but he could also be at the top of the ladder.

Finally! Been scouring the boards ever since I saw that WoB. I firmly believe Kelsier is Thaidakar, and he is definitely a leader, just not the Ghostbloods'. But what's his goal here, why did he co-opt them, and who's he really leading now? Always another secret...

[+Oltux72]

5 hours ago, Allthepancakes said:

Finally! Been scouring the boards ever since I saw that WoB. I firmly believe Kelsier is Thaidakar, and he is definitely a leader, just not the Ghostbloods'. But what's his goal here, why did he co-opt them, and who's he really leading now? Always another secret...

I'd say that their mission statement is right there in Secret History where Kelsier states that their ignorance already almost cost them everything and he is not going to let that happen again.