Karger

Thaidakar the Knowledge and Possibilities

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1 minute ago, Karger said:

That really is not ironic just human but yes it is quite funny.

Harmony usually can't intervene.  His intent is to create equilibrium and his own rules prevent it.  The way I understand it he can react but not act.

Agreed.  I worry that he will turn into the joker if this keeps up.

Harmony can do somethings.

He could try to find an answer to the dilemma. If he can’t find something that works, and Kell really starts losing it, he could probably block Kell’s Alomancy long enough for Marsh to contain his little brother. Marsh would keep watch over Kell until a solution is found.

If all else fails Harmony could probably reclaim his Investiture from Kell in its entirety, forcing the latter to the Beyond. Saze wouldn’t want to, but I think Kell would prefer that death to losing himself and Saze would know that.

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3 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Harmony can do somethings.

He is actually really limited.  Member Marsh said he did not want Spook's book but had to let it be written anyway?  Also his answer to Wax's question of "who tied god's hands?"

4 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

He could try to find an answer to the dilemma

He is but even he has trouble with Kelsier.  This is the man that overthrew the final empire, founded a religion, cheated death, lied to a god, and saved five nations.  Harmony spent a lifetime training Wax for this exact type of situation but I actually don't think Wax could track him down.

6 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

If all else fails Harmony could probably reclaim his Investiture from Kell in its entirety, forcing the latter to the Beyond. Saze wouldn’t want to, but I think Kell would prefer that death to losing himself and Saze would know that.

Again I don't think Harmony would want that even if Saze did and I am not sure how much Saze has inhibited himself.  Finally Kel has a body these days.  Harmony might be able to stop him from being a CS but I don't know if that would kill him.

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2 minutes ago, Karger said:

He is actually really limited.  Member Marsh said he did not want Spook's book but had to let it be written anyway?  Also his answer to Wax's question of "who tied god's hands?"

He is but even he has trouble with Kelsier.  This is the man that overthrew the final empire, founded a religion, cheated death, lied to a god, and saved five nations.  Harmony spent a lifetime training Wax for this exact type of situation but I actually don't think Wax could track him down.

Again I don't think Harmony would want that even if Saze did and I am not sure how much Saze has inhibited himself.  Finally Kel has a body these days.  Harmony might be able to stop him from being a CS but I don't know if that would kill him.

Saze CHOSE not to intervene, because of his beliefs. That’s what Marsh says.

Kell would have no issue with Saze telling him ‘here is how you keep yourself sane.’

I said briefly. Just like Saze can hold back a Kandra, I think he can temporarily cut Kell off from alomancy. Particularly since he’d be Ruining Kell’s connection to Preservation but also be doing it to Preserve Kell - and everyone else!

I doubt Saze would have an issue reclaiming his Investiture. His Ruin half would be fine with it, and Preservation never liked being attached to Kell anyway. Saze would also be reuniting the power, which is naturally drawn to itself. He’d also be Preserving the ‘real’ Kell, as Saze DOES believe there is something Beyond.

Harmony would want to maintain equilibrium. Kell upsets equilibriums by existing. Harmony does not like Kelsier. Sazed does. I think they’d both be okay with this.

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Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Saze CHOSE not to intervene, because of his beliefs. That’s what Marsh says.

Marsh's understanding is limited but this might help a bit more

Quote

No, not in this case. I can directly control a being who has pierced herself with too much Hemalurgy. In this case I would act, for Bleeder has disobeyed her Contract with me and opened herself up for my intervention. Something is wrong, unfortunately.

Kelseir does not as far as we know meet the criteria of too much hemalurgy or having a contract with Saze so he can probably get away with a lot.

 

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50 minutes ago, Karger said:

Marsh's understanding is limited but this might help a bit more

Kelseir does not as far as we know meet the criteria of too much hemalurgy or having a contract with Saze so he can probably get away with a lot.

 

True, but he is sustained by Saze’s Investiture. Which mean Saze probably could kill him if it was absolutely necessary.

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I don't think avatar is meant with a capital A, it could just mean a representative.  I don't think this is necessarily a point against Kelsier.

Edited by Kuram
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16 minutes ago, Kuram said:

I don't think avatar is meant with a capital A, it could just mean a representative.  I don't think this is necessarily a point against Kelsier.

Yeah, my ‘spellwrong’ keeps capitalizing the word. Probably because I’m also into Avatar: The Last Airbender, so I usually have the word capitalized.

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7 hours ago, Karger said:

Getting back on track.  IF we agree that Kel is in fact Thaidakar can we also agree that he is either approaching desperate or insane?

Yes. That conclusion looks inevitable. THe former is likelier.

We may also consider him quite angry. From his perspective the rest of the Cosmere happily traded with The Lord Ruler, while he was flooding market squares with Skaa blood.

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2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes. That conclusion looks inevitable. THe former is likelier.

We may also consider him quite angry. From his perspective the rest of the Cosmere happily traded with The Lord Ruler, while he was flooding market squares with Skaa blood.

That is an excellent point. I hadn’t thought of that.

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There is another related point I must talk about. Scasdrians are descendants of artificial Shardic constructs. Kelsier learned this. And at least the elite outside Scadrial in the Cosmere is also aware of this issue.

To put it bluntly, are Rosharans human in Kelsier's eyes? Average Rosharans obviously know nothing about Scadrial's history. Cultivation, however, surely knows. As do presumably Hoid and therefore now Taravangian. Are Scadrians humans to them? How do other Shards and scholars see this? Given her Intent I can very much see Cultavation having a problem with Rosharans. Invention likely loves them.

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9 hours ago, Kuram said:

I don't think avatar is meant with a capital A, it could just mean a representative.  I don't think this is necessarily a point against Kelsier.

That was bugging me too, the way people are assuming Thaidakar must be an Avatar like Trell. It could be something as simple as a Seon shaping his features like Shallan's did for Mraize. That would be an avatar to me.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes. That conclusion looks inevitable. THe former is likelier.

We may also consider him quite angry. From his perspective the rest of the Cosmere happily traded with The Lord Ruler, while he was flooding market squares with Skaa blood.

I think Kelsier would be very angry about the political landscape of most of Roshar - Lighteye society would look very much to him like noble society in The Final Empire.

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I don't know if this has been mention d yet, but I had a thought last night. 

 

one of the biggest arguments I've seen against Is that Kalak calls Thaidakar, "old Thaidakar".  300 yrs vs 7000 years.

 

have we considered that, like Hoid, Kelsier adopted someone else's name in the greater Cosmere?

Edited by Forest Nymphomaniac
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Sazed: ....Kel, why is this group calling their leader the "Lord of Scars"?
Kel: About that, the thing is.......
*Kel bolts away*
Sazed: *sigh* I should've picked Marsh. 


And I can plausibly see Kel stealing then using another persons name/identity. 

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1 hour ago, Kered said:

Sazed: ....Kel, why is this group calling their leader the "Lord of Scars"?
Kel: About that, the thing is.......
*Kel bolts away*
Sazed: *sigh* I should've picked Marsh. 


And I can plausibly see Kel stealing then using another persons name/identity. 

I doubt he’d run. Saze’s personal belief system doesn’t allow him to intervene, though he disapproves of what Kell’s been doing.

I’ve been looking at the timeline of when the books were written and I’m really curious as to when Brandon decided on Thaidakar’s identity.

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19 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I doubt he’d run. Saze’s personal belief system doesn’t allow him to intervene, though he disapproves of what Kell’s been doing.

I’ve been looking at the timeline of when the books were written and I’m really curious as to when Brandon decided on Thaidakar’s identity.

Was more dramatizing for comedic effect lol.  

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10 minutes ago, Kered said:

Was more dramatizing for comedic effect lol.  

True. And it is funny to imagine. I just see Kell grinning at Saze in that infuriating way of his going, “Would have thought you’d learned by now; there’s always another secret, Saze.”

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On 11/21/2020 at 5:22 PM, Karger said:

A lot of people are talking about Kel being confirmed as Thaidakar.  I admit I find the arguments somewhat compelling although I do see problems with them.  You can find the pro and against arguments I have managed to gather in the spoiler.

  Hide contents

Considering the evidence for Kelsier=Thaidakar basically boils down to:

1. Thaidakar is (probably) a cognitive shadow, or at least is in a similar situation to the Heralds

2. He is called "Lord of Scars"

3. Wit slapped him around(he can't usually hurt people)

These are the anti

1.  Mraize says he talks to Kelsier's "avatar"

2. The GB MO is very very different from Kel's

3. Kalak calls Thaidakar, "old Thaidakar". Kelsier's 300 yrs, Kalak is 7000 years.

If I missed any direct evidence please tell me.

However rather then debate on if Kel is or Thaidakar(we have probably all made up our minds by now) or not I think we should instead explore the possibilities.

Things we actually know about him are scarce.  We know Hoid does not like him, that he is CS, that he has been around for a while, that he is an important player on a planet(singular), that he is cosmere aware, and that he can project an avatar.  We also know that he has a problem similar to the Heralds and wants to avoid it.  Finally thanks to this WoB

we know he is not the only leader of the GBs.

If Kel is Thaidakar I can only see two real possibilities.  However whichever is right I still do not think Kelseir founded the GBs.  In this situation I think he would instead be a member of the GB "board of directors."  I do not think that he founded the organization.  I really can't see Kel making a new organization without making himself the absolute leader regardless of what has happened to him.  Even if he is insane now we know from the Heralds that the way he operates would not be any different. 

The first is that he has undergone a situation similar to the Heralds and is no longer acting anything like he did when alive.  This would explain a lot about #2 on the list of anti. 

Basically Kelseir is now more interested in destruction, never laughs, and avoids good people and free thinkers.

The other possibility is that he has gotten worse and is a bit desperate to avoid ending up like the Heralds.  Remember Kelseir is basically a spren at the moment and as we know spren see changing as a kind of death.  It could easily be even be worse for Kel who was made out of Preservation's power rather then one of the Rosharan shards.  Under this desperation Kel might act uncharacteristically because he is, understandably, desperate. 

EDIT.  I am adding a suggested possibility that Kel has gone nativist and maintains his old style while on scadrail but is a douche everywhere else.  I am not sure how this would work but it would explain some actions he has taken.  If someone could develop it further I would appreciate that.

 

If Kel is not Thaidakar then I think we can still agree he is some kind of CS.  That would ,depending on the circumstances, give Hoid the ability to hurt them solving pro arguments one and three.  If they are older as well it would agree with anti argument 3.  They could be from a planet we don't know about yet or possibly somewhere like Nalthis where we have not yet seen full CS(a returned without a body could last a lot longer). 

I would like to see if I am missing anything.  Arguments welcome.

The trouble with this is whilst when it was personally important to him, Kel did fight evil, he IS a douche, and it's noted by Sanderson and in Mistborn that in another world he would basically be the villain. Miles is used a parallel to that regard. The GB MO IS exactly his MO. And I think we know already that he has an avatar, from Bands of Mourning where it's heavily implied that he uses haematurgy and metal minds to imprint himself on a physical body, exactly what an avatar is.

 

I think these are both strong points FOR Thaidakar being Kelsier not against it. 

 

As for the "a leader" line, I think it's more that Thaidakar, like Mraize, is a title 

 

 

 

 

 

On 11/23/2020 at 10:46 PM, Karger said:

Marsh's understanding is limited but this might help a bit more

Kelseir does not as far as we know meet the criteria of too much hemalurgy or having a contract with Saze so he can probably get away with a lot.

 

Except we know Shards CAN act against their Intent. It just weakens them.

 

I don't think Harmony could intervene easily or safely, not when he knows he's under assault. But he can intervene.

Edited by IndigoAjah
Grammar correction
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On 11/24/2020 at 10:29 AM, Forest Nymphomaniac said:

I don't know if this has been mention d yet, but I had a thought last night. 

 

one of the biggest arguments I've seen against Is that Kalak calls Thaidakar, "old Thaidakar".  300 yrs vs 7000 years.

 

have we considered that, like Hoid, Kelsier adopted someone else's name in the greater Cosmere?

The Heralds can't really discern the passage of time.  Ash says as much, and Nale thinks it has been several generations(!) since the last Desolation. They sort of live their lives in a blur.  Kelek calling him "old Thaidakar" could mean they've been butting heads for 5 years or 5,000 in Kelek's mind.

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4 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

Except we know Shards CAN act against their Intent. It just weakens them.

 

I don't think Harmony could intervene easily or safely, not when he knows he's under assault. But he can intervene.

I don’t think Harmony will intervene so long as Kell is stable. If Kelsier starts losing it THEN he will intervene - because it’s what Kell would want.

Kelsier is afraid of losing himself; it’s part of why he didn’t go Beyond. Honestly, I think he’s scared - and that’s not something that happens often and not something he deals with well. Desperate men do desperate things, after all.
 

9 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

The trouble with this is whilst when it was personally important to him, Kel did fight evil, he IS a douche, and it's noted by Sanderson and in Mistborn that in another world he would basically be the villain. Miles is used a parallel to that regard. The GB MO IS exactly his MO. And I think we know already that he has an avatar, from Band of Mourning where it's heavily implied that he uses haematurgy and metal minds to imprint himself on a physical body, exactly what an avatar is.

 

I think these are both strong point FOR Thaidakar being Kelsier not against it. 

 

As for the "a leader" line, I think it's more that Thaidakar, like Mraize, is a title 

 

 

 

 

The GBs are totally Kell’s MO. It’s why so many theorized he was behind them. It always FELT like something he would be behind. That said, certain things they do are things he’d disagree with.

The way Mraize went about recruiting Shallan was an almost perfect inverse of the way Kell recruited Vin. I suspect Kell will be annoyed; Mraize’s folly cost the GBs a potent ally and created a dangerous enemy. That was just stupid.

He also wouldn’t be happy about Lift, because good people who try to do good are something Kell seeks to preserve - and I don’t think the latter word was an accident. Brandon knows how our heads work, lol!

 

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2 hours ago, IndigoAjah said:

The trouble with this is whilst when it was personally important to him, Kel did fight evil, he IS a douche, and it's noted by Sanderson and in Mistborn that in another world he would basically be the villain

Yes he has been a douche on many occasions but that does not stop him from self reflection.  Also while his motives might not be pure his methods are chosen quite carefully.  A good contrast is that Miles's henchmen were nowhere near as carefully chosen nor was their loyalty or dedication maintained the same way.

2 hours ago, IndigoAjah said:

And I think we know already that he has an avatar, from Bands of Mourning where it's heavily implied that he uses haematurgy and metal minds to imprint himself on a physical body, exactly what an avatar is.

Depends on your definition.  I don't think that method would work across planetary systems.

2 hours ago, IndigoAjah said:

Except we know Shards CAN act against their Intent. It just weakens them.

I don't think Harmony could intervene easily or safely, not when he knows he's under assault. But he can intervene.

Harmony has trouble doing much of anything at all.  He very much cannot break his word though.

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The way Mraize went about recruiting Shallan was an almost perfect inverse of the way Kell recruited Vin. I suspect Kell will be annoyed; Mraize’s folly cost the GBs a potent ally and created a dangerous enemy. That was just stupid.

Exactly.

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

He also wouldn’t be happy about Lift, because good people who try to do good are something Kell seeks to preserve - and I don’t think the latter word was an accident. Brandon knows how our heads work, lol!

I kind of hope if Kel does show up Mraize gets "fired" because honestly he has not been doing a particularly good job.  Era 1 Kel would certainly disprove.

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MB1 Kel thought nothing of assassinating people, even innocents, on the enemy side. He was a professional con man that lied to everyone even when he was doing good. His gang and own brother were amazed when he decided to actually try and do good, an act motivated by revenge. He would do anything for Vin, his morality pet, but she's not around anymore.

 

I think people are massively underestimating how amoral Kelsier, for all his loyalty to his friends and his people, can be. The GB methods are exactly Kel's methods, at every level. He is pure GB. 

 

And the Avatar thing has nothing to do with cross systems: Kel on Scadrial in his physical form is an avatar, by definition. There's no reason to believe even that avatar is crossing systems at all. 

Thaidakar is Kel. Even what we've heard about Mistborn and Brandon's timeline issues screams that. The only surer confirmation would be if we got a WoB and where's the fun in that.

 

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1 minute ago, IndigoAjah said:

MB1 Kel thought nothing of assassinating people, even innocents, on the enemy side. He was a professional con man that lied to everyone even when he was doing good. His gang and own brother were amazed when he decided to actually try and do good, an act motivated by revenge. He would do anything for Vin, his morality pet, but she's not around anymore.

 

I think people are massively underestimating how amoral Kelsier, for all his loyalty to his friends and his people, can be. The GB methods are exactly Kel's methods, at every level. He is pure GB. 

 

And the Avatar thing has nothing to do with cross systems: Kel on Scadrial in his physical form is an avatar, by definition. There's no reason to believe even that avatar is crossing systems at all. 

Thaidakar is Kel. Even what we've heard about Mistborn and Brandon's timeline issues screams that. The only surer confirmation would be if we got a WoB and where's the fun in that.

 

The overall actions of the GBs are Kell’s. Did I say I didn’t think he was ruthless? I pointed out that Mraize did something Kell would consider idiotic. Kell would have been just as quick to recruit Shallan (though note that Mraize was NOT supposed to recruit Shallan; Iyatil and Mraize decided to do it anyway. Proof the GBs do NOT always listen.) Only Kell would have gone about it differently and ended up with an ally.

Kell would never have trapped Lift because she would remind us too much of Vin. Plus WoB about him wanting to ‘preserve’ such people. I don’t think he’s be too bothered by the GBs doing it though. Not thrilled, but not bothered.

And he couldn’t care less about the coachman.

We don’t know how Kell returned. My theory is that spike just holds Connection to the physical realm and Kell transitioned through the Shard pool and was then able to manifest a body in the same/similar manner as the Heralds. Removing the Spike would basically leave him a deadeye in this theory. But the body would be his own and not an avatar at all.

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28 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The overall actions of the GBs are Kell’s. Did I say I didn’t think he was ruthless? I pointed out that Mraize did something Kell would consider idiotic. Kell would have been just as quick to recruit Shallan (though note that Mraize was NOT supposed to recruit Shallan; Iyatil and Mraize decided to do it anyway. Proof the GBs do NOT always listen.) Only Kell would have gone about it differently and ended up with an ally.

Kell would never have trapped Lift because she would remind us too much of Vin. Plus WoB about him wanting to ‘preserve’ such people. I don’t think he’s be too bothered by the GBs doing it though. Not thrilled, but not bothered.

And he couldn’t care less about the coachman.

We don’t know how Kell returned. My theory is that spike just holds Connection to the physical realm and Kell transitioned through the Shard pool and was then able to manifest a body in the same/similar manner as the Heralds. Removing the Spike would basically leave him a deadeye in this theory. But the body would be his own and not an avatar at all.

Sorry I was responding to Karger rather than yourself

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41 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The overall actions of the GBs are Kell’s. Did I say I didn’t think he was ruthless? I pointed out that Mraize did something Kell would consider idiotic. Kell would have been just as quick to recruit Shallan (though note that Mraize was NOT supposed to recruit Shallan; Iyatil and Mraize decided to do it anyway. Proof the GBs do NOT always listen.) Only Kell would have gone about it differently and ended up with an ally.

Kell would never have trapped Lift because she would remind us too much of Vin. Plus WoB about him wanting to ‘preserve’ such people. I don’t think he’s be too bothered by the GBs doing it though. Not thrilled, but not bothered.

And he couldn’t care less about the coachman.

We don’t know how Kell returned. My theory is that spike just holds Connection to the physical realm and Kell transitioned through the Shard pool and was then able to manifest a body in the same/similar manner as the Heralds. Removing the Spike would basically leave him a deadeye in this theory. But the body would be his own and not an avatar at all.

Personally I think Mraize is not long for this world, I expect Iyatil to off him early next book either on her own or Thaidakar's orders 

 

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On 11/27/2020 at 4:37 PM, IndigoAjah said:

Personally I think Mraize is not long for this world, I expect Iyatil to off him early next book either on her own or Thaidakar's orders 

 

Well, he disobeyed on Iyatil’s orders so he’s covered there. And GBs don’t kill/betray GBs. However, I do see him being in big trouble and being sent off to the the far edge of the Cosmere as a punishment if he doesn’t fix this mess.

I think Mraize in the next book will be desperately trying to find BAM so as to make up for the mess he made with Shallan. If he can get the answers Thaidakar wants, he’ll be okay. So he’ll be very intent on getting those answers - fast.

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