Karger

Thaidakar the Knowledge and Possibilities

97 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Surprisingly not. The Thaidakar is Kelsier theory has been around for a long time and has been in multiple thread titles. It just happens to be a little more accurate than we expected.

I mean, I Know that. But John Newtoforums won't. What if new people are looking to read just part one spoilers?

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9 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Alomancers can control Kandra, potentially over some distance. TLR controlled Koloss all the way at the edges of his empire

Actually he used inquisitors for that.  Also Kel is much weaker the TLR. 

6 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

This title is too spoiler for my liking....

Did not realize.  I will fix it.  Thanks.

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4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Actually he used inquisitors for that.  Also Kel is much weaker the TLR. 

Did he? I thought Ruin used them, but TLR didn't trust anyone with the secret of koloss control?

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38 minutes ago, AirsickHighlander said:

You just got me thinking, have we ever seen an unchained CS?

I forgot one group

  •  "The forces of Threnody"
7 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:


How was Kell initially preserved? By making him part of Ruin’s prison. What is Kell that no other CS we’ve seen has been? A Sliver.

He was pulled back before he became a Sliver.

7 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

How do the Heralds retain their existence? Through the Oathpact.

Deatable. Arguably only while they are bodyless.

7 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kell doesn’t need to escape Scadrial’s Connection; he needs to figure out how to persist if he interferes with the very Investiture that’s essential to his existence!

And he needs to do that now, really urgently. Why?

 

12 minutes ago, Karger said:

My guess is that they understand the theory behind the weapon but there is something wrong with their underlying understanding so they expect the weapon to work even though we know it won't.

That is exactly why you test. Odium is a Shard. Even he ran a weapons test.

12 minutes ago, Karger said:

They had a plan.  Lightweaving impersonation.

With Stormlight that would surely have run out given the travel times. With resupply difficult. Yet you are giving you operative a seon and a god metal weapon but no perfect gem.
I am running out of palms to put my face into. This operation is ... unprofessional would be an insult to the world's amateurs.

12 minutes ago, Karger said:

Firstly we don't know if this is Mraize's plan.  Even if he is a high ranking member I think he would need authorization to preform this mission.

Yes. Why? They could have put in at least some observers. Safe houses. supply dumps. You spend fortunes on equipment and then you risk that she dies from thirst if she has to escape alone? This was unbelievably badly organized.

12 minutes ago, Karger said:

Brandon has explained that he is not bound into a system by the nature of Endowment's investiture.

Then you know what you should study.

12 minutes ago, Karger said:

I think Odium can probably get around this if he really wants to.

Well, then maybe you should buy that rather than make strange missions.

12 minutes ago, Karger said:

Odium had not killed Jes yet.  They presumably missed their window with her.

Maybe they in fact did test the weapon on the fused and it worked.  The oathpact is partially defunct so the Herald's immortality does not work the same way anymore but the fused are still the same.

But then they have a Fused to study.

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

But then they have a Fused to study.

And?  Do we really have any evidence this is not the case?

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, then maybe you should buy that rather than make strange missions.

Getting into business arrangements with shards especially ones that want to take over the known universe is a risky business.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Then you know what you should study.

I am going to assume this method is not repeatable.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes. Why? They could have put in at least some observers

How do you know they have not?

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Safe houses. supply dumps. You spend fortunes on equipment and then you risk that she dies from thirst if she has to escape alone? This was unbelievably badly organized.

I would think Mraize gave her that seon for this exact reason.  They probably had people in the area to pick her up.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Yet you are giving you operative a seon and a god metal weapon but no perfect gem.

That is a point I missed.  Someone or something has a lot of perfect gems.  Could this be confirmation that these someones are not in fact the GBs?

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

That is exactly why you test. Odium is a Shard. Even he ran a weapons test.

As stated I think they did run a test.

1 hour ago, AirsickHighlander said:

Did he? I thought Ruin used them, but TLR didn't trust anyone with the secret of koloss control?

It is in the annotations IIRC.  When there was rebellion he would send an inquisitor with a group of koloss.  EDIT here is a reference.

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Human's Origin

Human is a very special koloss. He's quite a bit older than most, his creation running all the way back to before the Lord Ruler's death. He was originally the leader of a rebellion out in the southeast—the same area where Clubs spent his youth fighting. Human, then known as Vershad, was one of the more successful leaders of the wasted men—those who live out in the desert outside the borders of the Final Empire, but come in to raid and steal supplies from outlying villages.

Charismatic and intelligent, he managed to keep his band alive even once the Lord Ruler turned his attention on them. Rather than ravaging villages, Vershad would convert them—quietly, carefully—to his side and get them to give him supplies. In turn, he would "raid" them and destroy the lords' mansions, causing chaos and letting the people get a sideways revenge against their masters. In the chaos, it would be assumed that the raiders got away with the skaa food, and it would be replenished.

The Lord Ruler tired of such games and eventually sent his koloss against Vershad and his men. As clever as they were, they weren't able to stand against a well-laid betrayal and ambush set by an Inquisitor—one who controlled a troop of koloss. The raiders were slaughtered, and Vershad himself was turned into a koloss for his crimes.

He retained enough of his determination and his intelligence, however, to make a remarkably clever koloss. (There is some variety to koloss, based on who they were before the transformation.)

The Hero of Ages Annotations (Nov. 10, 2009)

 

Edited by Karger
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On 11/21/2020 at 5:22 PM, Karger said:

we know he is not the only leader if the GBs.

This WoB does not tell us that. "Thaidakar is leader" means no more than what it says. For example, in Kelsier's crew (before his death), there was only one leader: Kelsier. Despite there only being one leader, it would still be correct to say "Kelsier is leader." The extra emphasis on "a" in Brandon's answer may simply be to remove the assumption that Thaidakar is the only leader. So, while that WoB does leave the existence of more leaders open, it does not guarantee that existence.

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What I meant by circular reasoning is the following:

We are told that Thaidakar is suffering from an issue similar to a Herald. A Herald has three features likely relevant for this issue:

  1. he is a Cognitive Shadow
  2. he inhibits a body created by arcane means
  3. he is subject to the oath pact

We just assume that Thaidakar is Kelsier and hence jump to the conclusion that his problem is #1 and then conclude back to think that the Heralds cannot leave Roshar due to #1.

Do we have  further data? Sure. One is obvious, but for the second I had to dig. One is dangled under our nose: Zahel a.k.a. Vasher a.k.a. Warbreaker. This may be Endowment's special case. The others are a bit hidden.

(Secret History)

Spoiler

Kelsier hesitated in the empty corridor. Then, cautious, he crept back to peek into the room. The guards and the wizened creature all stood around the device, seeming displeased.
"I do not doubt your foresight, ancient one," the guard captain continued. But I do trust my forces on the Threnodite border. There are no shadows here."
"Perhaps," the creature said, resting her fingers on the gemstone. "Perhaps there was someone, but the guard was wrong about it being a Cognitive Shadow.

We do not see them. We get something even more valuable. We get a glimpse of what people thought and knew about Cognitive Shadows

  • CSes were so common that guards know how to recognise them -> unchaing a CS cannot be prohibitively expensive
  • they came from Threnody which is in another solar system -> they are unchained by mere humans
  • Kelsier knows that -> why does he not bug the Ire instead?
7 hours ago, Karger said:

And?  Do we really have any evidence this is not the case?

If you have a Fused to study (which must be recent), why do you rush a project to capture a Herald?

7 hours ago, Karger said:

Getting into business arrangements with shards especially ones that want to take over the known universe is a risky business.

So you go to them to buy a weapon, which can kill their most important agent, but you do not buy what you really need? Granted, they may have stolen or copied it (atium may work as well as raysium), but then you really are using a completely untested device.

7 hours ago, Karger said:

I am going to assume this method is not repeatable.

Possible, but how can the Ghostbloods know?

7 hours ago, Karger said:

How do you know they have not?

I do not, but why not tell Shallan where they are, so that she knows in which direction to run? Or prepare for the eventuality that she has to flee without being able to retrieve the communication box? This operation is ... (not family friendly)

Alternate theory:

Mraize lost his seon before communication started (or the cube Shallan took on the expedition was not the original). She did not talk to Mraize via Seon. Hoid is framing Kelsier. And he messed the operation up. Hoid is not a paramillitary officer. If we subtract the information we have gotten via Seon, the evidence for Thaidakar being Kelsier shrinks to almost nothing.

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Just to throw this out there:

Be that as it may,” Kelsier replied, “I think you underestimate my ability to make a complete nuisance of myself. I promise you, I can draw this out. Hell, I’ll bet I could turn this conversation of ours into at least a novella. Maybe a six-part epic.”

Brandon had written WoK when he wrote this, which means he knew who Thaidakar was. Considering how many other spoilers he threw into this thing...
 

I mean, we got the spikes and the novella. We still need that epic...

Also, that cage fight is still one of the funniest things Brandon has written.

@Oltux72

Except that the real evidence is that Brandon isn’t the sort to play nasty tricks on readers. He would have used vaguer hints if he was trying to fake us out.

This hint is so blatant it has spoiled Kelsier’s survival for some newer Mistborn readers. I doubt he would steal that surprise if it wasn’t real. It’s not his style. He’s not going to spoil things for his newer readers just to troll older readers.

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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49 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Except that the real evidence is that Brandon isn’t the sort to play nasty tricks on readers. He would have used vaguer hints if he was trying to fake us out.

Shallan and Adolin were the target. Subtle wouldn't work.

49 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

This hint is so blatant it has spoiled Kelsier’s survival for some newer Mistborn readers. I doubt he would steal that surprise if it wasn’t real. It’s not his style. He’s not going to spoil things for his newer readers just to troll older readers.

Trolling is unlikely to be his style.

(Rhythm of War release party)

Spoiler

Hoid is becoming active and playing his own game. Again this is not a simple epos of good versus evil. I doubt he read this piece now just for fun.
We are seeing how the hostile relationship between Scadrial and Roshar is started.

 

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2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Shallan and Adolin were the target. Subtle wouldn't work.

Trolling is unlikely to be his style.

(Rhythm of War release party)

  Hide contents

Hoid is becoming active and playing his own game. Again this is not a simple epos of good versus evil. I doubt he read this piece now just for fun.
We are seeing how the hostile relationship between Scadrial and Roshar is started.

 

I agree that we are beginning to see the hostile relationship get started. And Kell and Hoid have their... personal issues with one another. 
 

But the hint was blatant enough that new readers were spoiled on Kell’s survival. I ran into a few on Reddit. And it also means that at least some fans going from SA to MB, as many do, will also be spoiled regarding Kell’s survival. If this isn’t Kell, then that isn’t a very nice way to treat new fans who deserve to discover Mistborn’s secrets through those books.

If this was a trick, then Hoid could have just told Shallan this was a Scadrian. Possibly mentioning that said Scadrian only has one eye or has spikes. That still points Shallan in the right direction, but it doesn’t give away Kell’s survival to new readers. “Lord of Scars” does.

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18 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

But the hint was blatant enough that new readers were spoiled on Kell’s survival. I ran into a few on Reddit.

People reading SA, TFE but not SH?

18 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And it also means that at least some fans going from SA to MB, as many do, will also be spoiled regarding Kell’s survival. If this isn’t Kell, then that isn’t a very nice way to treat new fans who deserve to discover Mistborn’s secrets through those books.

If this was a trick, then Hoid could have just told Shallan this was a Scadrian. Possibly mentioning that said Scadrian only has one eye or has spikes. That still points Shallan in the right direction, but it doesn’t give away Kell’s survival to new readers. “Lord of Scars” does.

I supect a scene early in SA 5 where Adolin tells Felt to check whether a group of new arrivals is from Scadrial and to try sounding them out for a guy called "Lord of Scars" leading to a full loss of control over his facial expression on Felt's part.

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1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

People reading SA, TFE but not SH?

I supect a scene early in SA 5 where Adolin tells Felt to check whether a group of new arrivals is from Scadrial and to try sounding them out for a guy called "Lord of Scars" leading to a full loss of control over his facial expression on Felt's part.

Yep. A couple had read MB era1, and didn’t know about SH or figured it was a novella. One had been advised to read Era 2 first and didn’t want to read three more books before reading RoW. I’ve advised a few who said ‘just finished MB; going to read SA/RoW’ to read SH first, and preferably all of MB.

 

Yes, I can’t imagine Felt is there for any other reason. I’m hoping he goes, “Lord Kelseeay” with proper Scadrian pronunciation - and none of our Semitic speaking Alethi can pronounce the name correctly at all.

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5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Yep. A couple had read MB era1, and didn’t know about SH or figured it was a novella. One had been advised to read Era 2 first and didn’t want to read three more books before reading RoW. I’ve advised a few who said ‘just finished MB; going to read SA/RoW’ to read SH first, and preferably all of MB.

Interesting. I am afraid we will have to say in the future that if you read SA, you either read all other Cosmere stuff concerning a planet or none.

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Yes, I can’t imagine Felt is there for any other reason.

Yes. But that means Brandon Sanderson had to use "scars", "survivor" or "Hathsin". Either would have had that issue.

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I’m hoping he goes, “Lord Kelseeay” with proper Scadrian pronunciation - and none of our Semitic speaking Alethi can pronounce the name correctly at all.

You have triggered me. The Alethi are not the semitic speakers. The Azish are. Alethi as far as we can tell would sound like a slightly darker version of Spanish with a touch of German. It has none of the sounds characteristic for a semitic language. There are no uvular or except for 'h' pharyngeal consonants. In fact from Brandon Sanderson's description of the pronounciation of "Kholin" we must conclude that 'o' and 'e' have a closed pronounciation. And he must be able to tell the difference. It is a feature of Korean to distinguish between those vowels.
The only feature they seem to lack is vowel or consonant length. They'd struggle with Nalthian or Threnodite names (no 'z'), not Central Dominance stuff.

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10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Interesting. I am afraid we will have to say in the future that if you read SA, you either read all other Cosmere stuff concerning a planet or none.

Yes. But that means Brandon Sanderson had to use "scars", "survivor" or "Hathsin". Either would have had that issue.

You have triggered me. The Alethi are not the semitic speakers. The Azish are. Alethi as far as we can tell would sound like a slightly darker version of Spanish with a touch of German. It has none of the sounds characteristic for a semitic language. There are no uvular or except for 'h' pharyngeal consonants. In fact from Brandon Sanderson's description of the pronounciation of "Kholin" we must conclude that 'o' and 'e' have a closed pronounciation. And he must be able to tell the difference. It is a feature of Korean to distinguish between those vowels.
The only feature they seem to lack is vowel or consonant length. They'd struggle with Nalthian or Threnodite names (no 'z'), not Central Dominance stuff.

You realize that Felt recognizing Kell, if this isn’t Kell, is a problem due to the issue above? I don’t think Brandon is going to be that unfair to his new readers.

If this was a trick, I think Hoid would have mentioned a Scadrian with a spike through his eye and Felt would inform Shallan and Adolin that the only one he knew of was Ironeyes, but that he was definitely not behind the GBs. “It’s the sort of thing his brother would do, but the Survivor died long ago.”

This still points Shallan in the correct direction (Scadrial), hints at Kell for those in the know, but doesn’t give the secret away. And it makes Hoid’s decision to get the ‘Kell is back, is the Sovereign, and has a SPIKE in his eye’ all the more explicable.

With regard to linguistics:

Are there differences in pronunciation between the different worlds in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Do you have any record of that?

Brandon Sanderson

So, it depends on the culture and things like that, what it's going to be like. You can kind of bet in Mistborn it's going to be French, if it's from the Central Dominance. So they'll say "Kelsi-ay" and "De-MOH" but where Elend's from is a lot more Germanic so "EE-lend" "STRAHFF" and stuff like that. The other worlds are all going to have their different things. In Roshar you are going to get some of the "YAS-nah kHo-LIN" it's going to be a little more Semitic in its language family.

 

Steelheart release party (Sept. 24, 2013)
#3 
 

Questioner

So, how do you pronounce [Jasnah's] name?

Brandon Sanderson

They use the J as a Y. But you don't have to say it that way, you can say it how you want. Because they actually use a guttural, sort of Middle-Eastern <koh>, which is in Kholin. You can say the names however you want, but that is the pronunciation style that I'm using. It's very Semitic, the language family.

 

 
 

Questioner

In Alethkar, a lot of the consonant sounds are “C” sounds or “K’s”, like Kaladin. [Can’t hear the rest of the question here very well]

Brandon Sanderson

It’s just based on the rules I came up for it when I was designing it. They’re mostly semitic origins or middle eastern origins. Kholin is actually [pronounces it], but I don’t expect the audiobook narrators to do “chuh” every time they see a “kh”. The “k” is a “c” sound. That and the “j” are the only weird ones, for Alethi. In Tashikk, I can’t even do the Arabic glottal. The double “q” or the double “k” in the Azish often is that, but I can’t do it. Peter can.

 

Jasnah's name. What was the origin for it?

Brandon Sanderson

Jasnah's name predates most of the language work that I did. It comes from ancient, kind of Semitic languages-- playing around with those. And then her name became one of the ones that I built the language around. Because after I had named her, and written the whole book, I had named her and Dalinar. Kaladin's name changed once I had rebuilt the linguistics. Shallan's name changed once I rebuilt the linguistics. But Dalinar and Jasnah kind of became the origins. But it's ancient-- you know, a blend of Arabic and Hebrew. It's kind of-- yeah.

 

Does "Alethi" come from or have anything to do with the Greek word for truth or is that just a coincidence?

Brandon Sanderson

Alethi is a coincidence. However, it is the sort of coincidence that happens a lot for me in languages, as I often look for a "feel" for a language. Alethi, for example, is a Semitic language mashup with some Mediterranean influence. So I'm not surprised if it means something in the right languages. (I did this with Straff and Elend from Mistborn, looking for Germanic-sounding words and accidentally using two words from German.)

 

What is the origin of the name Kaladin?

My wife and I recently had our first child and that's what we named him. Just curious if there's any story behind the name.

Brandon Sanderson

I use Arabic in some of the creation of Alethi names, and Kaled (or Khaled) was the root I started playing with to come up with a new name for Kaladin, as I didn't like the one I'd used in 2002. I'd already designed Kalak after this, the Herald, and wanted a common name version of this.

When I arrived at Kaladin, it sounded right to me--likely because of the similarity to Paladin, as others noted below.

Dragonsandman

So if Kaladin's name is derived from Khaled, is it fair to assume that the Alethi language sounds similar to Arabic?

Brandon Sanderson

Alethi has some Hebrew to it too. I used Semitic language roots for the Dawnchant, which had a huge influence on Rosharan languages. While there are a few oddballs rules, and some linguistics that stand on their own, both major language groups on Roshar (the Azish family and the Vorin family) would probably sound very Arabic to you.

For example, the Alethi Kh is a voiceless velar fricative.The Azish kk or q sound is a voiceless uvular, sometimes stop, sometimes an affricate. Sometimes a uvular ejective.

No, I can't make those sounds on demand. Peter can, though. It's helpful to have a linguist on my team.

There are more, but I think I’ve made my point. Alethi is a Semitic language. I speak some Hebrew, and I’ve known it since before I read these WoB because the similarities are very evident. I’m not sure why you thought it was Spanish?

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16 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And you want me to believe that they cannot unchain a Cognitive Shadow?

The answer to that is simple, I think. We saw a Cognitive Shadow that sustained purely through it's Connection to the Shard unchained. It's Jezrien and, he's dead. 

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1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

You realize that Felt recognizing Kell, if this isn’t Kell, is a problem due to the issue above? I don’t think Brandon is going to be that unfair to his new readers.

What is the alternative? Let the Ghostbloods keep stewing for two more books?

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

If this was a trick, I think Hoid would have mentioned a Scadrian with a spike through his eye and Felt would inform Shallan and Adolin that the only one he knew of was Ironeyes, but that he was definitely not behind the GBs. “It’s the sort of thing his brother would do, but the Survivor died long ago.”

Felt is not into that Ironeyes thing. He is from the World of Ash. He is not advertising tht he is a space alien. You need to really shock him.

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Dragonsandman

So if Kaladin's name is derived from Khaled, is it fair to assume that the Alethi language sounds similar to Arabic?

Brandon Sanderson

Alethi has some Hebrew to it too. I used Semitic language roots for the Dawnchant, which had a huge influence on Rosharan languages. While there are a few oddballs rules, and some linguistics that stand on their own, both major language groups on Roshar (the Azish family and the Vorin family) would probably sound very Arabic to you.

Well, that is from people to whom Arabic is a very distant language.

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

For example, the Alethi Kh is a voiceless velar fricative.

Found in Irish, Russian, German, Czech, Greek, Spanish, Vietnamese, ... and incidentally, yes, in Arabic and Hebrew. But in no way characteristic for semitic languages.

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

 

The Azish kk or q sound is a voiceless uvular, sometimes stop, sometimes an affricate. Sometimes a uvular ejective.

Now that is semitic or caucasian.

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

No, I can't make those sounds on demand. Peter can, though. It's helpful to have a linguist on my team.

There are more, but I think I’ve made my point. Alethi is a Semitic language. I speak some Hebrew, and I’ve known it since before I read these WoB because the similarities are very evident. I’m not sure why you thought it was Spanish?

Because the things you see in Hebrew, which is a semitic language, are of course to be found in semitic languages. But not because semitic languages are somewhat special in that regard, but because they are normal. English is an extremely odd language phonologically speaking. Hebrew is also pretty strange for a semitic language, especially in the vowel system.
What makes Alethi similar to Spanish is likely the system of rhythm and vowels. Especially as Alethi has very few closed Syllables. Ka - la -din. Tha -na - dal. A - do - lin. Adolin is a special gem, as he is explained. Adoda = light + lin. But it is not Adodlin, but Adolin. The consonant cluster is eliminated. The rhythm is very much uniform length per syllable. Colloquially this is called the "machine-gun", "staccato quality" of Spanish.
You see this also in the way Alethi mishear alien names: Scadarial. Nalathis. They put in extra vowels to break up consonant clusters.

Alethi has 5 vowels and we see no evidence of vowel length mattering. That is not unusual. You find that in languages as diverse as Spanish and Bulgarian for example. So I picked Spanish as an example in the mistaken assumption that the likelihood that you are familiar with it is high. The vowels are not those of Spanish though. Hebrew vowels are closer.

But the consonants don't match not at all. It lacks that tendency to voiced fricatives. In fact it seems to lack them. Alethi consonants are basic (taken from names):

p  t   k
b  d  g
f  th  kh
and a few special ones: s r l j n m sh v and maybe (z) - probly only in loan words.

This is highly regular and normal for a human language. Nothing of that system is in any way remarkable.

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8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

If you have a Fused to study (which must be recent), why do you rush a project to capture a Herald?

Because Heralds and fused have different knowledge bases.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Do we have  further data?

Quote

Questioner

Did Kelsier leave Scadrial when he went to the Ire fortress?

Brandon Sanderson

I consider him not having left, but being very close to leaving. He couldn't have actually gotten off-planet with the way that he existed at that point. So, no, he did not leave Scadrial. At least the sphere of influence of Scadrial.

The Great American Read: Other Worlds with Brandon Sanderson (Oct. 25, 2018)
8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Granted, they may have stolen or copied it (atium may work as well as raysium), but then you really are using a completely untested device.

You steal it then test it.  I fail to see what the problem is.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Possible, but how can the Ghostbloods know?

Probably because tests were conducted same as any other science. 

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I do not, but why not tell Shallan where they are, so that she knows in which direction to run? Or prepare for the eventuality that she has to flee without being able to retrieve the communication box?

If she gets made that early in the game she is done for anyway.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Mraize lost his seon before communication started (or the cube Shallan took on the expedition was not the original). She did not talk to Mraize via Seon. Hoid is framing Kelsier. And he messed the operation up. Hoid is not a paramillitary officer. If we subtract the information we have gotten via Seon, the evidence for Thaidakar being Kelsier shrinks to almost nothing.

I don't think that would work.  Hoid would have to fool the Seon itself as well as get cooperation from Pattern.  Finally doing all of this puts Shallan at a severe disadvantage when she gets home.

 

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36 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

What is the alternative? Let the Ghostbloods keep stewing for two more books?

Felt is not into that Ironeyes thing. He is from the World of Ash. He is not advertising tht he is a space alien. You need to really shock him.

Well, that is from people to whom Arabic is a very distant language.

Found in Irish, Russian, German, Czech, Greek, Spanish, Vietnamese, ... and incidentally, yes, in Arabic and Hebrew. But in no way characteristic for semitic languages.

Now that is semitic or caucasian.

Because the things you see in Hebrew, which is a semitic language, are of course to be found in semitic languages. But not because semitic languages are somewhat special in that regard, but because they are normal. English is an extremely odd language phonologically speaking. Hebrew is also pretty strange for a semitic language, especially in the vowel system.
What makes Alethi similar to Spanish is likely the system of rhythm and vowels. Especially as Alethi has very few closed Syllables. Ka - la -din. Tha -na - dal. A - do - lin. Adolin is a special gem, as he is explained. Adoda = light + lin. But it is not Adodlin, but Adolin. The consonant cluster is eliminated. The rhythm is very much uniform length per syllable. Colloquially this is called the "machine-gun", "staccato quality" of Spanish.
You see this also in the way Alethi mishear alien names: Scadarial. Nalathis. They put in extra vowels to break up consonant clusters.

Alethi has 5 vowels and we see no evidence of vowel length mattering. That is not unusual. You find that in languages as diverse as Spanish and Bulgarian for example. So I picked Spanish as an example in the mistaken assumption that the likelihood that you are familiar with it is high. The vowels are not those of Spanish though. Hebrew vowels are closer.

But the consonants don't match not at all. It lacks that tendency to voiced fricatives. In fact it seems to lack them. Alethi consonants are basic (taken from names):

p  t   k
b  d  g
f  th  kh
and a few special ones: s r l j n m sh v and maybe (z) - probly only in loan words.

This is highly regular and normal for a human language. Nothing of that system is in any way remarkable.

Brandon has repeatedly stated that Alethi is a Semitic language. You are welcome to take it up with him.
 

Also, everything you said is ALSO true of Hebrew. Especially old Hebrew, which is the one I’m familiar with. For example: Min Ha’mayim Mishisihu. No consonant clusters.
 

The reason you may not recognize it in names is due to the roots, so most names are more like Adolin’s. Yishmael, for example, is actually: Yi - future prefix; Shema - root meaning listen; El - God. The whole meaning God will listen. Yitzchak: Yi - future prefix; Tzachak - laughter. Yakov: Y - prefix; Akev- ankle. As you can see, once you break the names down, there are no consonant clusters.

What is a fricative?

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6 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Brandon has repeatedly stated that Alethi is a Semitic language. You are welcome to take it up with him.

It is based on a Semitic language. You can see traces. Words end in "h". That does not tell you how it sounds. Italian and Polish are related, hence based on the same language. Do they sound alike? In fact Hebrew and Arabic or Ge'ez do not sound alike. At least not to me.

6 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Also, everything you said is ALSO true of Hebrew. Especially old Hebrew, which is the one I’m familiar with. For example: Min Ha’mayim Mishisihu. No consonant clusters.

Yes.
Yo - ko -ha - ma
Hi - ro - shi - ma
Mi - ya -mo - to
Mu - sa -shi

Hebrew is a normal language. It shares a lot with other normal languages. English isn't normal. What makes a language sound te way it does you are looking at non-standard features.

6 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:


The reason you may not recognize it in names is due to the roots, so most names are more like Adolin’s. Yishmael, for example, is actually: Yi - future prefix; Shema - root meaning listen;

You could do that to most historical English names as well. But you see that Hebrew if you form the actual words do have consonant clusters -shm- or in other names Mordekhai

6 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

El - God. The whole meaning God will listen. Yitzchak: Yi - future prefix; Tzachak - laughter. Yakov: Y - prefix; Akev- ankle. As you can see, once you break the names down, there are no consonant clusters.

Going by the Alethi rules you will turn Yitzchak into Yichak (I hope nobody with that name will read this). See the difference?

6 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

What is a fricative?

The sounds you can produce as long as your air lasts that are not vowels.

Try ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss or fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff or nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
That works. Now tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt It means you have to repeat the consonant but you cannot hold it in a steady state.

It is called a fricative because the airflow is continous (that is why you can say them for as long as you want) but it passes through a narrow gap so that the friction turns the airflow extremely turbulent.

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7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

It is based on a Semitic language. You can see traces. Words end in "h". That does not tell you how it sounds. Italian and Polish are related, hence based on the same language. Do they sound alike? In fact Hebrew and Arabic or Ge'ez do not sound alike. At least not to me.

Yes.
Yo - ko -ha - ma
Hi - ro - shi - ma
Mi - ya -mo - to
Mu - sa -shi

Hebrew is a normal language. It shares a lot with other normal languages. English isn't normal. What makes a language sound te way it does you are looking at non-standard features.

You could do that to most historical English names as well. But you see that Hebrew if you form the actual words do have consonant clusters -shm- or in other names Mordekhai

Going by the Alethi rules you will turn Yitzchak into Yichak (I hope nobody with that name will read this). See the difference?

The sounds you can produce as long as your air lasts that are not vowels.

Try ssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss or fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff or nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn
That works. Now tttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt It means you have to repeat the consonant but you cannot hold it in a steady state.

It is called a fricative because the airflow is continous (that is why you can say them for as long as you want) but it passes through a narrow gap so that the friction turns the airflow extremely turbulent.

Fricatives do exist in Hebrew. Not so much in modern Ivrit. Mostly S and Kh (which is a single continuous sound) with some F sounds. All those sounds exist in Alethi.

Mordechai is a combination name, just like 90% of Jewish names.  The ‘names’ are actually full sentences. Root words (Shorashim) almost never - if ever - have consonant clusters. 

Arabic, Aramaic and Hebrew (the three Semitic languages I’m familiar with) all sound similar to me. There’s plenty of overlap in the words. I could recognize Alethi as being a Semitic type language by the way the words were written/sounded.
 

Per Brandon, Alethi is a “Semitic language mashup with some Mediterranean influences” and there is no indication that he considered Spanish at all, beyond Spanish being a Romance language. The Romantic (French) mixed with German is a Scadrian thing, not a Rosharan one. Which makes sense; Roshar is loosely Middle Eastern/Far Eastern, while Scadrial is Europe/the US.

 

Which means Rosharans would likely have trouble pronouncing Kell’s very French sounding name. The double vowel doesn’t really seem to exist within their language. And Kell wouldn’t be able to pronounce Kholin without connection - no, actually he might considering how much time he’s spent in the Germanic speaking South.

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5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Fricatives do exist in Hebrew. Not so much in modern Ivrit. Mostly S and Kh (which is a single continuous sound) with some F sounds. All those sounds exist in Alethi.

Yes, but not in voiced form. (with the exception of v, which likely until recently was w)

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Mordechai is a combination name, just like 90% of Jewish names.  The ‘names’ are actually full sentences. Root words (Shorashim) almost never - if ever - have consonant clusters. 

Please put the shem root into the other binyamin and tell me whether the resulting words have consonant clusters.

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Which means Rosharans would likely have trouble pronouncing Kell’s very French sounding name. The double vowel doesn’t really seem to exist within their language.

Ialai, Sadeas, Sadees, ...

 

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3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, but not in voiced form. (with the exception of v, which likely until recently was w)

Please put the shem root into the other binyamin and tell me whether the resulting words have consonant clusters.

Ialai, Sadeas, Sadees, ...

 

It’s always been Vav. I’m not sure what you mean by voiced? I don’t know the roots for Mordechai, except the end, which is Chai.

Just because English writes something with two vowels doesn’t mean both are pronounced. I’ve always pronounced Sadeas as Sadeze, for example.

Anyway, why don’t you argue this with Brandon? He’s the one who says it’s a Semitic language, so complain to him about it. Until then I’m going with what the author says, and we can get this topic back on track.

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Getting back on track.  IF we agree that Kel is in fact Thaidakar can we also agree that he is either approaching desperate or insane?

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4 hours ago, Karger said:

Getting back on track.  IF we agree that Kel is in fact Thaidakar can we also agree that he is either approaching desperate or insane?

I think he’s too young to be going insane under most circumstances, especially with him being a Sliver of Preservation and highly invested.

However.

I think having TWO competing mythologies centered on him may be giving him problems. Individually, at this early point, the effects on him are minor. The problem is that as he travels from one side of the planet to the other, how he is perceived changes drastically. He’s being torn between two competing perceptions of who he is, and that is a much more serious effect.

I don’t think he’s actually going mad yet (I think Marsh and Harmony care enough to directly intervene if he were) but I think he’s very aware of the effects and is TERRIFIED at the thought of losing himself (who wouldn’t be?). And he may feel that he’ll be safer, or have more time to figure things out if he can get away from Scadrial.

So yes, he’s genuinely afraid and increasingly desperate. He isn’t really going mad yet (not much more than he already WAS), but he can feel his soul fray every time he goes from North to South, and that has not had a great effect on his mental state. And a frightened, desperate Kelsier is a very dangerous thing.

I may also love the irony of Kell having created his own storm with all those religions centered on himself.

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39 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I may also love the irony of Kell having created his own storm with all those religions centered on himself.

That really is not ironic just human but yes it is quite funny.

40 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I don’t think he’s actually going mad yet (I think Marsh and Harmony care enough to directly intervene if he were)

Harmony usually can't intervene.  His intent is to create equilibrium and his own rules prevent it.  The way I understand it he can react but not act.

41 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

So yes, he’s genuinely afraid and increasingly desperate. He isn’t really going mad yet (not much more than he already WAS), but he can feel his soul fray every time he goes from North to South, and that has not had a great effect on his mental state. And a frightened, desperate Kelsier is a very dangerous thing.

Agreed.  I worry that he will turn into the joker if this keeps up.

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