rhythm of war Cultivation Possibilities

[spitfireky]

3 hours ago, Ramona Tehradin said:

A wild theory:

Hear me out, I might be either colossally wrong or terribly right and we have been lead to believe the biggest lie Roshar is based on. And sensing the new 'testaments' coming forth in RoW, I would not be surprised if majority of the books have shrouded us in ways we couldn't contemplate. I don't think Honor is dead. 

I agree. However, the Shard is definitely Splintered. I might be wrong, but its Investiture is still present with no direction, right? So that's why it's considered "dead" right now, with just little bits of Investiture getting into the Physical Realm through Stormlight, highstorms, and spren.

I also think that Notum saying "Honor is not dead so long as he lives in the hearts of men" will have later significance, especially since the honorspren got so angry as a response. Perception has an impact on Investiture, after all.

What I thought was interesting was the difference between Ambition/Devotion/Dominion's Splinterings and Honor's. Aren't the Shattering of Shards supposed to have extremely destructive effects on the planets/systems they're Invested in? Something about the Shard's power being too intense w/o a Vessel? The Evil on Threnody could be a result of Ambition's Investiture going haywire on the planet post-Splinter. The Dor is also supposed to be dangerous and volatile because it's the remnants of Devotion and Dominion's power trapped in the Cognitive Realm. So I think the difference between the events was that at the time of Honor's Splintering, Tanavast could've had most of the Shard's power in the Spiritual Realm. 

My theory is that Cultivation is grooming Dalinar to take up the remnants of Honor's Shard. This might be premature, but maybe the contest of champions in SA5 will take place during a highstorm and culminate in Dalinar reaching into the Spiritual Realm and harnessing all of Honor's Investiture. Coupled with the WoB that said Splintering can be reversed I think this is possible. Additionally, the contest's location being on the top of Urithuru makes it the best place to come into contact with all that Investiture. However, I think that in Dalinar's hands the Shard would turn into Unity, much like how Ruin & Preservation became Harmony and Odium in Taravangian's hands might end up being Passion. We have that scene in OB to go by, with Dalinar opening Honor's Perpendicularity and calling himself Unity. I also think it would be a great way to close the first arc of SA. 

[Golstar]

7 minutes ago, spitfireky said:

My theory is that Cultivation is grooming Dalinar to take up the remnants of Honor's Shard. This might be premature, but maybe the contest of champions in SA5 will take place during a highstorm and culminate in Dalinar reaching into the Spiritual Realm and harnessing all of Honor's Investiture. Coupled with the WoB that said Splintering can be reversed I think this is possible. Additionally, the contest's location being on the top of Urithuru makes it the best place to come into contact with all that Investiture. However, I think that in Dalinar's hands the Shard would turn into Unity, much like how Ruin & Preservation became Harmony and Odium in Taravangian's hands might end up being Passion. We have that scene in OB to go by, with Dalinar opening Honor's Perpendicularity and calling himself Unity. I also think it would be a great way to close the first arc of SA. 

If all Shards are infinite could a Shard potentially be split - not splintered? With Honor being split into Unity and... something else?

[spitfireky]

11 minutes ago, Golstar said:

If all Shards are infinite could a Shard potentially be split - not splintered? With Honor being split into Unity and... something else?

Maybe Dalinar will take the aspect of Honor that handles Unity and Kaladin will take the other (leadership?). He's always referred to as Child/Son of Tanavast, so that seems important. Especially after what Moash said about Kaladin in RoW ("He is a force like the storms, and you cannot kill the storms") and Kaladin's title being Stormblessed...

It'd be interesting if the first half of SA ends with the split of one Shard into two to reflect MB Era 1 ending with two Shards combining into one.

Edited November 23, 2020 by spitfireky
forgot to add something

[Golstar]

1 minute ago, spitfireky said:

Maybe Dalinar will take the aspect of Honor that handles Unity and Kaladin will take the other (leadership?). He's always referred to as Child/Son of Tanavast, so that seems important. Especially after what Moash said about Kaladin in RoW ("He is a force like the storms, and you cannot kill the storms") and Kaladin's title being Stormblessed...

 

Protection?

[spitfireky]

Just now, Golstar said:

Protection?

Actually yeah that'd work much better, I was just worried it'd be too close to something like Devotion.

[Golstar]

It could also be Integrity.

[EvilIndian]

 

Quote

If all Shards are infinite could a Shard potentially be split - not splintered? With Honor being split into Unity and... something else?

It could probably be done, but would be insanely hard I imagine. If we are talking splitting an existing shard into two parts, I’m not sure how, you would have to convert the intent of the investiture, and for that to happen you would have to separate the investiture in two parts and imbue them with an intent close to honor. Like unity and perhaps protection as you guys mentioned, but how would you divide and hold half of infinite investiture? Infinity divided by two is still infinity so idk about that.

 

a more plausible and more applicable idea would be coalescing an already splintered shards investiture into two parts. I imagine this could be done. On Roshar, as far as I understand, most of honors investiture lies in the spren, so you would have to take the investiture from the Spren, and “unkey” it from them, since they already are manifestations of honors intent (the investiture of honor coalescing and forming a consciousness ie. Spren) you would have to “kill” the Spren, free the investiture and force it into a cognitive being that could then, probably, form the intent of the investiture into something close to Honor like Unity or Protection. 
 

in theory you could create endless shards with endless intents since all shards are infinite. Splitting a shard in two, would just give you two new shards both infinite. This probably won’t be exploited since it’s kind of an endless cycle, just thought  it was fun to mention : D

I think this kind of thing would be easier to accomplish on the Elantris world (I forget it’s name), since the investiture of both shards is just floating about in the cognitive realm, and really only needs some kind of beacon to attract it, and form an intent around it. It is kinda curious why the investiture of Devotion and Dominion, hasn’t formed into a conscious being, since “large amounts of investiture forms consciousness”, I suspect this is foul play on Odiums part, perhaps because of the volatile nature of the CR in Elantris world, the investiture never has time to coalaeace into conscious beings because the two different types of investiture constantly clash with each other idk. 
 

just some thoughts on the subject, it’s late and I might be rambling, so let me know if you think I’m way of track : D

 

[seriodor]

1 hour ago, Golstar said:

If all Shards are infinite could a Shard potentially be split - not splintered? With Honor being split into Unity and... something else?

I'm pretty sure you would need a new type of Dawnshard to split a shard into two other concepts. We know that 4 Dawnshards split Adonalsium, and it seems like the mechanism they used involved splitting it's power off according to four commands. So all the Shards have already been split after the four commands were applied to the whole. Maybe if you used a Dawnshard from a different category, like a shard from the Change command having one of the others used on them. I just feel like you would need a command that hadn't already been applied to Adonalsium to split other shards concept wise.

[Eternal Khol]

On 11/21/2020 at 0:15 PM, albenraph said:

1: Cultivation messed up big time

Definitely not an option.

Cultivation doesnt make mistakes XD

 in my opinion, Cultivation has yet to misstep... doing anything.

i feel like she could’ve even prevented Honors death, but i feel like, even that, was part of her plan(i dont have proof. Just a feeling)

Everything is part of her plan.

thats just my bias though

 

Edited November 24, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[seriodor]

14 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

Definitely not an option.

Cultivation doesnt make mistakes XD

 in my opinion, Cultivation has yet to misstep... doing anything.

i feel like she could’ve even prevented Honors death, but i feel like, even that, was part of her plan(i dont have proof. Just a feeling)

Everything is part of her plan.

thats just my bias though

 

Yeah I don't think it's a bias. The whole misstep idea doesn't sit right with me mainly because it assumes the person that perfectly manipulated a million variables to complete delicate and far reaching plans, could't account for Taravangian being a wanker. If Dalinar Kholin can plan for Taravangian betraying him, then Cultivation can. That is a weird underestimation of what is basically a goddess. 

[Eternal Khol]

11 minutes ago, seriodor said:

Yeah I don't think it's a bias.

Yeah. I used to be biased toward her, back when like we knew nothing bout her except her Intent.

Now, i have my reason.

Now with everything we've seen, i can confidently state that she is indeed a Bad B, who can do no wrong

lol

Edited November 24, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[sentinel]

so I just remembered that Lift's name, in whatever language it would originally be in, literally means "to ascend" or "to raise up".

To ascend. That would be the most underhanded, dirty little bit of foreshadowing he's ever given us.

[Honorless]

Yeah, it's difficult to tell right now what Cultivation's plan was. Did she try to see the best in Taravangian or... Taravangian is essentially also a broken god. With no Connection to the Physical he's not an effective Vessel, like Kelsier. And somehow, her Boon/Bane is still there in the Vessel of a Shard.

Honestly, I think Cultivation would've been fine with either result, if the first happened: great! But just in case, here's not one but two failsafes (yes, that's how the plural of that is written). She's preparing because others are starting to interfere on Roshar and she wants the planet to be prepared. She probably has permanent plans for Odium. Perhaps she wants to merge his Intent with Honor, like Leras wanted with Preservation and Ruin. But that's the best case scenario.

It's entirely possible Cultivation did get it wrong. Or that her mind is intent on Cultivating things, and her thinking has become near Eldrich. We just don't know.

[Golstar]

34 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Yeah, it's difficult to tell right now what Cultivation's plan was. Did she try to see the best in Taravangian or... Taravangian is essentially also a broken god. With no Connection to the Physical he's not an effective Vessel, like Kelsier. And somehow, her Boon/Bane is still there in the Vessel of a Shard.

Taravangian did not die prior to Ascension. The corpse they found, and mistakenly identified as Taravangian, belonged to Rayse. So he does have every bit the connection to the Physical Realm as the other Vessels. The physical form just vanishes somehow on Ascension (and is rather unceremoniously ejected on death).

[Honorless]

4 minutes ago, Golstar said:

Taravangian did not die prior to Ascension. The corpse they found, and mistakenly identified as Taravangian, belonged to Rayse. So he does have every bit the connection to the Physical Realm as the other Vessels. The physical form just vanishes somehow on Ascension (and is rather unceremoniously ejected on death).

 

[Golstar]

20 minutes ago, Honorless said:

 

My bad for not remembering that. However, the lack of a body still leads me to suspect he was brought back from the brink of death by his Ascension. Especially as the following passage describes how Nightblood drains his lifeforce creating a vacuum. But if you're right, and there is certainly reasonable grounds to assume he did die, then shouldn't he realize that there is a problem? Shouldn't he have trouble manifesting in Elhokar's palace?

Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between. That fact that he ascended immediately on death in a cognitive state completely in-tune with Odium's intent made up for any shortcomings of not being physically alive? I don't really see any hints that he is weakened or limited in his use of the Shardic power. On the contrary it almost seems like his death-borne ascension strengthened him. If he let go of the power (not that he would), I do think he'd die, and not become a sliver (like the Lord Ruler did), but in his current state I'd be surprised if he's not every bit as capable as Rayse - perhaps even more so.

Secret History of the Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

When Vin ascends - it happened after she was physically annihilated by her use of Allomacy as the mists poured into her. She had some limitations, but those were described as due to lack of experience wielding the power. She had an edge due to not yet being influenced by the shard, and thus able to act somewhat against the intent. Odium seems to have no problems mastering his power (although Cultivation does offer to teach him) - but he also seems to be so much in tune with his intent, that he gains no benefit from being 'freshly' Ascended and not yet influenced by the shard. Maybe that will change over time. Interestingly when she died by assaulting Ati directly, a body was ejected, despite her body being annihilated prior to ascension. I think if Taravangian/Odium was killed, something similar would happen, a body would be ejected that did not bear any signs of what Nightblood and Szeth did to it.

 

[Necessary Eagle]

@Golstar I think the "physical body gets converted to Investiture" thing is a normal part of Ascension, different from actual death. That's how a body can drop when a Vessel dies-- it gets un-Investitured and reconstituted back into flesh and blood.

When [M:SH]

Spoiler

Kelsier takes up a Shard posthumously and then gives it up, no corpse appears

so probably the same would go for Mr. T.

[Honorless]

12 hours ago, Golstar said:

My bad for not remembering that. However, the lack of a body still leads me to suspect he was brought back from the brink of death by his Ascension. Especially as the following passage describes how Nightblood drains his lifeforce creating a vacuum. But if you're right, and there is certainly reasonable grounds to assume he did die, then shouldn't he realize that there is a problem? Shouldn't he have trouble manifesting in Elhokar's palace?

Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between. That fact that he ascended immediately on death in a cognitive state completely in-tune with Odium's intent made up for any shortcomings of not being physically alive? I don't really see any hints that he is weakened or limited in his use of the Shardic power. On the contrary it almost seems like his death-borne ascension strengthened him. If he let go of the power (not that he would), I do think he'd die, and not become a sliver (like the Lord Ruler did), but in his current state I'd be surprised if he's not every bit as capable as Rayse - perhaps even more so.

Secret History of the Mistborn spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

When Vin ascends - it happened after she was physically annihilated by her use of Allomacy as the mists poured into her. She had some limitations, but those were described as due to lack of experience wielding the power. She had an edge due to not yet being influenced by the shard, and thus able to act somewhat against the intent. Odium seems to have no problems mastering his power (although Cultivation does offer to teach him) - but he also seems to be so much in tune with his intent, that he gains no benefit from being 'freshly' Ascended and not yet influenced by the shard. Maybe that will change over time. Interestingly when she died by assaulting Ati directly, a body was ejected, despite her body being annihilated prior to ascension. I think if Taravangian/Odium was killed, something similar would happen, a body would be ejected that did not bear any signs of what Nightblood and Szeth did to it.

 

Yeah, what happened is a bit confusing. Szeth used Nightblood to kill Taravangian but we don't see the scene from his perspective, which would help a bit more. The body turns into Investiture upon Ascension, and from SH, if you're dead, with no Connection to the Physical and still Ascend, then you're an imperfect host and your body remains behind. Which didn't happen with Taravangian, he did not leave a body behind.

Then there is Szeth, whose soul was rejoined to his body immediately after his death. A Shard definitely has enough Investiture to reConnect Taravangian's aspects across the Three Realms. So maybe Taravangian was healed from death.

Then there is Nightblood, who might've completely vaporized Taravangian's body because let's not forget, he can do stuff like that.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Oh but we're not done here. Taravangian was still of two minds after his Ascension: a dispassionate one and a passionate one. Is that Cultivation's Boon still in action within the Vessel of another Shard!?

┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ) 

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

（╯°□°）╯︵(\ .o.)\

What is even happening?! Must know! Boooooooooook 5!

Edited November 25, 2020 by Honorless

[+Oltux72]

On 24.11.2020 at 1:34 AM, seriodor said:

Yeah I don't think it's a bias. The whole misstep idea doesn't sit right with me mainly because it assumes the person that perfectly manipulated a million variables to complete delicate and far reaching plans, could't account for Taravangian being a wanker.

She does not care. She is Cultivation, not "Ethically Impeccable Behavior". She is looking for somebody who is capable of rational and constructive behavior to the extent that she can cultivate.

Quote

That includes the thorns.

That is the most important quote. It explains her. She is perfectly happy with a murderous empire builder, as long as he build.

On 24.11.2020 at 1:34 AM, seriodor said:

If Dalinar Kholin can plan for Taravangian betraying him, then Cultivation can. That is a weird underestimation of what is basically a goddess. 

He is a Shard. She is a Shard. Shards have a huge issue with breaking their word.

15 hours ago, Honorless said:

Yeah, it's difficult to tell right now what Cultivation's plan was. Did she try to see the best in Taravangian or... Taravangian is essentially also a broken god. With no Connection to the Physical he's not an effective Vessel, like Kelsier. And somehow, her Boon/Bane is still there in the Vessel of a Shard.

Not the best. The most controlled. Taravangian is ruthlessness on steroids. But he is also disciplined and determined to an extraordinary degree. He saw the issue. He did not flinch or go into denial. He went to the Nightwatcher. Confronted with a threat he was ready to salvage what could be salvaged at whatever be the cost.

[Shuffel]

On 11/23/2020 at 3:53 PM, seriodor said:

There's a WoB that says that Cultivation fought on Honors side against Odium.

 

 

This WOB can be misleading.  A mercy killing is helping someone.

Not to mention, Honor could of been in on Cultivations plan.It is very honorable to sacrifice your self for the eventual good of everyone.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Shuffel

[Subvisual Haze]

Every time Dalinar and Taravangian are having an ethical debate they're actually taking the viewpoints of Honor versus Cultivation.  All of Taravangian's "I must be the one who is willing to sacrifice some for the survival of all" is pure Cultivation worldview.

[LordTheodore]

On 11/25/2020 at 4:51 AM, Honorless said:

Yeah, what happened is a bit confusing. Szeth used Nightblood to kill Taravangian

No. Szeth used a knife to kill Taravangian

[Honorless]

9 hours ago, LordTheodore said:

No. Szeth used a knife to kill Taravangian

No. Szeth killed him with Nightblood. That's why after Rayse's half-destroyed body dropped, Szeth thought it was Taravangian's body.

[AndrolGenhald]

17 minutes ago, Honorless said:

No. Szeth killed him with Nightblood. That's why after Rayse's half-destroyed body dropped, Szeth thought it was Taravangian's body.

The body is half destroyed because Taravangian killed Rayse with Nightblood. Szeth just accepts it because he's a bit crazy.

Szeth uses his knife to kill Taravangian (though it's debatable whether Taravangian actually died):

Quote

“I decide now,” Szeth said, reaching toward his waist—not for the terrible sword, but for the small knife he was wearing beside it. “I finally decide. Me. No one else compelling me. Taravangian, know that in killing you, I make it my choice.”

Szeth thinks Taravangian somehow drew Nightblood:

Quote

Almost all possible futures agreed. Szeth would confess that he’d gone to kill Taravangian, but somehow Taravangian had drawn Nightblood—and the weapon had consumed him.

 

[Honorless]

3 hours ago, AndrolGenhald said:

The body is half destroyed because Taravangian killed Rayse with Nightblood. Szeth just accepts it because he's a bit crazy.

Szeth uses his knife to kill Taravangian (though it's debatable whether Taravangian actually died):

Szeth thinks Taravangian somehow drew Nightblood:

Okay then, Taravangian is definitely alive as a Vessel, with that much Investiture, he was definitely healed

Edited November 27, 2020 by Honorless