knightedbishop Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 Just a thought... Dalinar and Rayse as Odium agreed to a contest of champions. Yet Dalinar is talking about being his own champion. If he does so, what’s to stop Mr T as Odium from being his own champion? As a Shard he could flatten Dalinar as he is. I don’t think this is how it will go. I think the likely route Mr T will go is to pick someone Dalinar and his side are unwilling to fight, thus voiding the bargain and freeing Odium. A child sounds like a good bet. Gavinor? It kept coming up that, by the standards of Alethi culture, he was old enough to be practicing with his sword. That he was old enough to participate in war (albeit not in combat). Gavinor keeps expressing a desire to be able to fight. There are questions about what the Fused may have done while they had him. Heck, his mom had two Unmade whispering in her ear- who knows what they did to him. And you can bet neither Dalinar nor Kaladin will be willing to kill Gavinor. Heck, Kaladin would likely see it as a betrayal of his Radiant oaths to do so. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rorzikel Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 7 hours ago, cappybaro said: It seams to me that everyone is so concentrated in finding Tode's loophole, so none really thinks about the possibility of Dalinar using this loophole to win. Theory time:) -Stormfather is a sliver of Honor and the biggest piece of honor shard on Roshar - Dalinar bonded to Stormdad and this him unique bonsmith (Stormdad always awe at what Dalinar can do with his abilities) - what other big pieces of Honor do we know? Honorblades - what if Dalinar bonded almost every blade and they together with the stormdad sliver will be enough for Dalinar to ascend If i'm right Dalinar will have a "got you" moment on Tod when he becomes practically immortal and the killing part is the main clause of their agreement. it will be a nice ending for first five and Tod will be forced to find another loophole for the book 6 Except killing gods was kind of what the previous vessel of Odium showed was rather possible. Being "practically immortal" doesn't mean much when Tanavast already got merc'd. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uvara Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 8 hours ago, cappybaro said: It seams to me that everyone is so concentrated in finding Tode's loophole, so none really thinks about the possibility of Dalinar using this loophole to win. Theory time:) -Stormfather is a sliver of Honor and the biggest piece of honor shard on Roshar - Dalinar bonded to Stormdad and this him unique bonsmith (Stormdad always awe at what Dalinar can do with his abilities) - what other big pieces of Honor do we know? Honorblades - what if Dalinar bonded almost every blade and they together with the stormdad sliver will be enough for Dalinar to ascend If i'm right Dalinar will have a "got you" moment on Tod when he becomes practically immortal and the killing part is the main clause of their agreement. it will be a nice ending for first five and Tod will be forced to find another loophole for the book 6 I like the way you are thinking, but getting all honorblades in 10 days seems too difficult to me. Getting the blades of Jezrien, Taln, Ishar and Nale in time would likely require them to be in the same position, which might happen, but does not seem likely. The way of thinking about an immortal champion is nice, it might make for a kind of oathpact 2.0, except that the anti light discovery means time is kind of running out. It is good food for thought at least. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Bliev Posted December 1, 2020 Report Share Posted December 1, 2020 So I tried to look at the final terms they agreed upon and look for the loophole. Quote “Final terms are these: A contest of champions to the death. On the tenth day of the month Palah, tenth hour. We each send a willing champion, allowed to meet at the top of Urithiru, otherwise unharmed by either side’s forces. If I win that contest, you will remain bound to the system—but you will return Alethkar and Herdaz to me, with all of their occupants intact. You will vow to cease hostilities and maintain the peace, not working against my allies or our kingdoms in any way.” “Agreed,” Odium said. “But if I win, I keep everything I’ve won—including your homeland. I still remain bound to this system, and will still cease hostilities as you said above. But I will have your soul. To serve me, immortal. Will you do this? Because I agree to these terms.” “And I,” Dalinar whispered. “I agree to these terms.” “It is done.” I thought perhaps it was the "10th day of the month Palah, tenth hour." It does NOT say which month Palah, right? Perhaps Todium decides to put it off because he DOESN'T feel the need to have a battle of champions like Rayse did so quickly? A willing champion: It doesn't say a champion can't be insane or tricked, so perhaps Todium tricks Ishar into being his champion, willingly of course, since Ishar thinks Dalinar's on the *OTHER* side, and you get chained Bondsmith vs. unchained Bondsmith. An immortal champion. If Dalinar dies first, he loses. So choose a champion who cannot be killed in the normal way, say, a Sleepless? Or perhaps "El" his Fused? The catch here will be either Dalinar will become Todium's "property" forevermore, or Navani will need to poof away his soul with some anti-light right quick when that happens. Just saying... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dasak Posted December 2, 2020 Report Share Posted December 2, 2020 (edited) I agree with the theory of Odium/Taravangian trying to force a tie. I take your points of Odium choosing someone who is linked to another planet, and I see it as posible, but also dificult to accomplish (first Odium can't leave Rosharan System, second he will have to find someone loyal to him with no honor/cultivation/odium influence to make the shadesmar interplanetary trip, third the traveller has to convince the choosen champion to accept by giving him/her something he/she wants, and finally all of this will have to be settled in ten days or less). But as I said, It's a possibility. I don't agree with those who are saying the campion will be a child, because a child technically can kill Dalinar, so he will have to concede his defeat to escape from killing the child or the child will have to concede his defeat. My perception is that if a champions can technically be killed by the other, a tie is not an option. So, on both situations, Taravangian will lose (remember his goal is to broke the ties which stop him to escape from rosharan system). Odium's champion being an spren/voidspren it's another possibility. We assume sprens/voidsprens can't interact with physic world (despite Syl doing it) but what if high ranked sprens can do it? Lately has been demonstrated that spren knowledge is not absolute, and their nature is likely to be changed (for example, Maya as a deadeyes can speak). On the other side, navani has demonstrated that sprens and voidsprens can be killed with anti-stormlight and anti-voidlight. My conclusion is that common sprens can't be elected as champions, neither common voidsprens. My guess would be on Odium representing himself, he can't be killed by Dalinar as far as Taravangian knows, neither he can kill Dalinar (because of his pact with Honor). Yes, Taravangian could be killed by Dalinar if he uses Nightblood, but we don't know when Nightblood will be operative to absorb energy (remember that killing Rayse has put it in a kind of sleeping state) and he knows that nobody a part of him knows that Nightblood can be used to kill gods (neither vasher knows as far as we know, but I think he wouldn't be surprised if he ever finds it out). Anti-Voidlight won't be an option, Rebaniel itself constated that there was no possibility to create the amount of anti-voidlight needed to kill Odium. I don't know if there is another entity likely to match with the restrictions to be the champion Odium needs. Cultivation is not an option, because she can kill Dalinar (she is not restrained by Odium's and Honor's pact). I think Hoid isn't option either, cause he will kill Dalinar to prevent Odium's escape. Perhaps Unmades or bondsmith's sprens like The Sibling or Nightwatcher can't be killed by the same reason as Odium. If I'm wrong in a statement I made, please correct me. And I apologise in advance for my grammar mistakes. ;) Edited December 2, 2020 by Dasak 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duladen Posted December 2, 2020 Report Share Posted December 2, 2020 Perhaps this death rattle foreshadows the contest: “I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. ” —Collected on Shashanan 1173, 23 seconds pre-death, by the Silent Gatherers. Subject was a darkeyed youth of sixteen years. Sample is of particular note. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyRunner Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 I found it very intriguing during the Ishar fight scene that Dalinar is in awe of the heralds fighting skill and asks the Stormfather about him. And the storm father replies that his skill was average amongst the heralds and the Taln was the most skilled. It made me think that odium would somehow find a way to offer to take away Talns pain to be his champion and end his eternal suffering. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SixthIdeal Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 52 minutes ago, SkyRunner said: I found it very intriguing during the Ishar fight scene that Dalinar is in awe of the heralds fighting skill and asks the Stormfather about him. And the storm father replies that his skill was average amongst the heralds and the Taln was the most skilled. It made me think that odium would somehow find a way to offer to take away Talns pain to be his champion and end his eternal suffering. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gderu Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 I think that the key here is making Dalinar break his word. Odium outright said that if Dalinar did so, the agreement binding him to Roshar would be void. If both champions are killed at once, or if they cannot kill one another, the status quo simply continues. Dalinar did not break his word, and therefore there is no reason to think that the deal holding Odium to Roshar will go away. The most obvious clause to be exploited is about both champions arriving unhindered and unharmed. If Odium can get Dalinar's goaded enough, they might kill Odium's champion, and thus make Odium free. It honestly sounds very easy to do so. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solant Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 I think Dalinar has 10 days to figure out how to piece Honor back together and take it up, turning it into an Odium v Honor battle. My brain keeps imagining him doing his perpendicularity thing (remember they said this is new to Bond smiths, he must have that skill for a reason other than being a battery for the Radiants), reaching into the SR and putting him back together like he did the temple in Theylan City (adhesioning? adhering? Lol). I just feel like he has those specific powers for a reason. Either that, or it ends up not ever happening or coming to a draw. I don't see Dalinar becoming a Fused though. Knock on Wood. . . KoW 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dasak Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 3 hours ago, Gderu said: I think that the key here is making Dalinar break his word. Odium outright said that if Dalinar did so, the agreement binding him to Roshar would be void. If both champions are killed at once, or if they cannot kill one another, the status quo simply continues. Dalinar did not break his word, and therefore there is no reason to think that the deal holding Odium to Roshar will go away. The most obvious clause to be exploited is about both champions arriving unhindered and unharmed. If Odium can get Dalinar's goaded enough, they might kill Odium's champion, and thus make Odium free. It honestly sounds very easy to do so. Yeah, it's another possibility, and the most logical one according to the statements agreed on the pact of Champions. We know Odium refused to break the deal because of Cultivation, he thought she will kill him just after being exposed for the pact's betrayal. But now the situation is different, Cultivation thinks Taravangian is on his side, and Taravangian knows it, he can take advantatge of the situation. We don't know Cultivation plans, she may feel betrayed by Taravangian's escape and will try to kill him, or she will think that as long as Odium not being Rayse, he can go wherever he wants. We will have to wait until 2 or 3 years to know it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solant Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 I'm still entertaining the idea that, even though ascended, Mr T is still affected by the boon/curse, and that it wasn't random but directly controlled by Cultivation, and after being filtered through him the Shard could flip it's Intent based on his level of apathy/compassion between Odium and Passion. That would leave Cultivation with the ability to flip that switch at just the right moment on the day of the contest, handing the victory to the Radiants. it all sounds like a very Cultivation-y plan to me 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gderu Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, Dasak said: We know Odium refused to break the deal because of Cultivation, he thought she will kill him just after being exposed for the pact's betrayal. But now the situation is different, Cultivation thinks Taravangian is on his side, and Taravangian knows it, he can take advantatge of the situation. I understood that differently. I think that he meant that it would be the breaking of his word that would allow others to attack him, not that the deal he had with Honor protects him. Edit: this is the text from the book: "But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me." This seems to imply that my interpretation is true. Edited December 3, 2020 by Gderu 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uvara Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 7 hours ago, Solant said: I'm still entertaining the idea that, even though ascended, Mr T is still affected by the boon/curse, and that it wasn't random but directly controlled by Cultivation, and after being filtered through him the Shard could flip it's Intent based on his level of apathy/compassion between Odium and Passion. That would leave Cultivation with the ability to flip that switch at just the right moment on the day of the contest, handing the victory to the Radiants. it all sounds like a very Cultivation-y plan to me Very interesting! Two things do not sit right with me however. 1. Is Cultivation right or is she miscalculating? Can she control another vessel? 2. What is the end game of Cultivation? Is she a actually a "force for good" or does she want to remain as the sole shard in the system for her own reasons? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvisual Haze Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 They never specified the champion needs to be mortal. Couldn't Odium just send one of the UnMade? Sure they can be captured under very special circumstances, but good luck killing one in a duel. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dasak Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 56 minutes ago, Gderu said: I understood that differently. I think that he meant that it would be the breaking of his word that would allow others to attack him, not that the deal he had with Honor protects him. Edit: this is the text from the book: "But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me." This seems to imply that my interpretation is true. Well, I've never said that the pact is protecting him. I'm sorry if I haven't expressed the idea appropriately. What I've said is that the betrayal of the pact, which means Odium breaking his word, will cause him to be exposed (the hole in his soul), allowing Cultivaton to kill him. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenduLuke Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 By the end of the contest Dalinar becomes Honor just like Teravangian became Odium. Then the conclusion of the Contest, since in becoming Honor Dalinar died, Odium, Cultivation, and Honor end with a consensus to straiten out the Cosmere and oppose Trell in Scadrial along side Harmony bringing to bear the power of surges to that battle in 2nd generation Roshar and third generation Scadrial. Dalinar leads the radiants and fused on this crusade against the Ghost Bloods and ultimately Trell. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 On 12/1/2020 at 10:20 AM, knightedbishop said: Just a thought... Dalinar and Rayse as Odium agreed to a contest of champions. Yet Dalinar is talking about being his own champion. If he does so, what’s to stop Mr T as Odium from being his own champion? As a Shard he could flatten Dalinar as he is. I don’t think this is how it will go. I think the likely route Mr T will go is to pick someone Dalinar and his side are unwilling to fight, thus voiding the bargain and freeing Odium. A child sounds like a good bet. Gavinor? It kept coming up that, by the standards of Alethi culture, he was old enough to be practicing with his sword. That he was old enough to participate in war (albeit not in combat). Gavinor keeps expressing a desire to be able to fight. There are questions about what the Fused may have done while they had him. Heck, his mom had two Unmade whispering in her ear- who knows what they did to him. And you can bet neither Dalinar nor Kaladin will be willing to kill Gavinor. Heck, Kaladin would likely see it as a betrayal of his Radiant oaths to do so. This reminded me of a Death Rattle from the chapter headings in Way of Kings. I seem to recall that the conclusion of this arc was revealed in these headings, but we couldn't figure it out. “I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw.” This could easily be the situation you described. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Bliev Posted December 3, 2020 Report Share Posted December 3, 2020 15 hours ago, Gderu said: The most obvious clause to be exploited is about both champions arriving unhindered and unharmed. If Odium can get Dalinar's goaded enough, they might kill Odium's champion, and thus make Odium free. It honestly sounds very easy to do so. Strong vote for Moash as champion, then...walking up through every floor in the tower...past Navani. Jasnah. Adolin. Kaladin? Bridge 4? Yeah. That could definitely be a loophole that would work. 2 hours ago, Uvara said: Very interesting! Two things do not sit right with me however. 1. Is Cultivation right or is she miscalculating? Can she control another vessel? 2. What is the end game of Cultivation? Is she a actually a "force for good" or does she want to remain as the sole shard in the system for her own reasons? I don't think we know. I don't think any Shard is "good" in that way. They're all warped by their power, and their Intents. I don't think she can or wants to "control" Taravangian. Wouldn't be very well aligned with her intent, I don't think! But nudge him? GROW him? yeah. I can see that. Maybe she wants changes in all the OG vessels...maybe they ALL need to go, including herself? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginger_reckoning Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 So here's my thoughts (sorry if this is repeating anything, I didn't read the whole thread) Mr T. Chooses Gavinor as his champion Dalinar is unwilling to kill Gavinor (since he is baby) and Gavinor is physically unable to kill Dalinar (since he is baby) Therefore, the contest is a draw. There was nothing about the event of a draw in the contract, so if that occurs Mr T would no longer be bound. The contract is null. Mr T is free to leave Roshar and do his thing I think this will be the case because of that one death rattle about holding the knife to the childs throat. Also, Mr. T would have no interest in keeping Dalinar as an immortal slave, IMO, so he wouldn't care if he wins. He just wants to be free so he can "save everyone". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gderu Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 3 hours ago, ginger_reckoning said: So here's my thoughts (sorry if this is repeating anything, I didn't read the whole thread) Mr T. Chooses Gavinor as his champion Dalinar is unwilling to kill Gavinor (since he is baby) and Gavinor is physically unable to kill Dalinar (since he is baby) Therefore, the contest is a draw. There was nothing about the event of a draw in the contract, so if that occurs Mr T would no longer be bound. The contract is null. Mr T is free to leave Roshar and do his thing I think this will be the case because of that one death rattle about holding the knife to the childs throat. Also, Mr. T would have no interest in keeping Dalinar as an immortal slave, IMO, so he wouldn't care if he wins. He just wants to be free so he can "save everyone". This can't happen though. The champion has to be willing, and Gavinor would not be willing. Besides that, the contract that binds Odium to Roshar is completley different than the one they just made. Having this contract not take effect would not affect the old contact Odium had with Honor. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginger_reckoning Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 17 minutes ago, Gderu said: The champion has to be willing, and Gavinor would not be willing. If odium were to appear to him as his father, though, to offer the arragnement... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolsnow7 Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 16 hours ago, Solant said: I'm still entertaining the idea that, even though ascended, Mr T is still affected by the boon/curse, and that it wasn't random but directly controlled by Cultivation, and after being filtered through him the Shard could flip it's Intent based on his level of apathy/compassion between Odium and Passion. That would leave Cultivation with the ability to flip that switch at just the right moment on the day of the contest, handing the victory to the Radiants. it all sounds like a very Cultivation-y plan to me In which case the entirety of the first 5 books is buildup to... a deus ex machina from Cultivation? I think that would be a worse ending than Dalinar the Fused. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solant Posted December 4, 2020 Report Share Posted December 4, 2020 @coolsnow7 I mean, I'm sure the would be more to it than that, and it might not go exactly as planned, but I'm sure that Cultivation has a long game vs Odium, and I think that she manipulated him into that position for a reason because she's had a hand in his destiny ever since he visited her, and I suspect that it didn't end when he picked up the shard. She and Tanavast were romantically involved, so I have to imagine she's been planning on how to neutralize not just Rayse but Odium itself for a long time. What better way to do that than to put a new vessel in and cultivate an intent change? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gderu Posted December 5, 2020 Report Share Posted December 5, 2020 On 04/12/2020 at 7:15 AM, ginger_reckoning said: If odium were to appear to him as his father, though, to offer the arragnement... I seriously don't think that would count as willing. He has to be willing to fight for Odium against Dalinar. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.