CROSSENuUP

Contest of Champions Predictions [RoW Spoilers]

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How can it end in a tie when it's to the death? They both kill each other at the exact second?

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Maybe a merging of cognitive shadows? Oaths that make so they can't harm each other like Hoid can't be harmed by certain people?

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Or pick a champion who cannot be killed in the traditional sense. Seems like Dalinar et al seem to think they need to pick a human to fight another human. No reason the champion has to be a human or even a being from Roshar. Or heck, pick a champion from a completely different solar system. It would make the contest be virtually impossible to occur which might nullify it, thereby releasing Tod.

 

Fortunately we only have 2-3 years to wait to find out!.... *sad face*

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Odium somehow gets Hoid to be the champion for either side. Hoid cannot kill nor can he be killed therefor we get a draw. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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On 21.11.2020 at 4:35 PM, TiaOmi said:

How can it end in a tie when it's to the death? They both kill each other at the exact second?

That is what a suicide bomber would do.

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On 24-11-2020 at 10:44 PM, Tisc W Slabmuz said:

Seems like Dalinar et al seem to think they need to pick a human to fight another human. No reason the champion has to be a human or even a being from Roshar.

It would make sense to me if the champion is at least able to consent to being the champion, I would not expect that Odium could pick a chasmfiend. A spren or other sapient being however, that does sound possible. 

What I wonder however, we still do not exactly know what ties Odium to the Rosharan system before the contract, do we? He would still need to find a way around that.

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I just made another post touching on these lines, but I agree with that this contest seems foreshadowed to end in neither a win nor a loss, releasing Odium from the system. This twist is going to come smack dab in the middle of the book, either the end of parts 2 or 3 if I had to guess. That way we'll get two parts of our main characters trying desperately to fix their mistake, grappling with the consequences, and raising the stakes and setting the stage for the back half of the series.

5 hours ago, Uvara said:

What I wonder however, we still do not exactly know what ties Odium to the Rosharan system before the contract, do we?

My understanding is that what ties Odium to the system is a pact Rayse (Odium) made with Tanavast (Honor). Since Dalinar is acknowledged by Rayse (Odium) as acting on behalf of Honor, the agreement we saw is a modification of whatever deal is holding Odium there.

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On 11/27/2020 at 8:37 AM, trav said:

make the fight last forever

are the terms of the previous pact binding until the end of the battle? because if not that gives a minimum of 10 days during which Todd can do whatever the frik he wants, or if he can extend the duel indefinitely (through any number of possible methods), he can just do whatever he wants.

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I stil cannot fathom why Dalinar and to a greater extent Jasnah thought it would be a good idea to agree to a contest of champions. 
 

Odium’s forces are at the height of their powers. The have been unchanged for millennia and have zero potential to progress or change what they are doing. 
 

Where as Dalinar is a novice with his bondsmith abilities. He only has two radiants above the 3rd ideal. They just bonded the sibling and the Human advancement of Fabrial technology is light years ahead of what the enemy is capable of producing themselves.
 

The Radiants are not far away from a point of progression where they would easily dominate this conflict/war. This “Contest of Champions” looks to be the only possible way odium could win; yet they agree to it anyway. It baffles me. 

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Agreed, but we know this from a reader's perspective, not an in-world one. Jasnah and Dalinar are most likely unaware as to how broken and insane the Fused are, and have no idea they really only need to hold out for a few generations. Plus, we had the vision of Honor telling Dalinar that a contest of champions is the best path to victory, that's not something Dalinar is just going to ignore. Add in Hoid's approval of the plan, and it makes sense why they would see it as a viable option. 

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On 11/24/2020 at 8:17 PM, knightedbishop said:

Both sides pick the same champion. 

That is kind of what happened in Oathbringer.

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Dawnshard spoilers:

Spoiler

Would it be possible to choose one of the Sleepless as the champion? IIRC, they can't be killed unless you kill every last one of their component hordelings. So, all they'd have to do is hide one of their hordelings outside the boundaries of the arena, and Odium's champion would be unable to win.

 

I think any plausible way for the good guys to rules-lawyer a victory would have to meet some loose definition of being "honorable" to avoid an oops-Dalinar-just-broke-his-bond-and-killed-the-Stormfather moment. Of course, as we saw with the honorspren, not everyone agrees on what qualifies as "honorable." But I think something like "Jasnah, as absolute monarch of Alethkar, issues a royal decree changing the name of the next month so that the agreed-upon date never comes" wouldn't work.

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The series is supposed to have two 5-part sections. So while many predict Todium will end the book by escaping Roshar, there has to be some type of positive conclusion for the 5 books as a whole. So maybe the tie idea where neither can win or they are locked in eternal struggle, and the loophole then results in all-out war where the Fused are defeated, Roshar united, but Todium escapes (and maybe kills Cultivation) is my best guess.

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10 hours ago, Bridge Boy said:

I stil cannot fathom why Dalinar and to a greater extent Jasnah thought it would be a good idea to agree to a contest of champions. 

Because it's the only way to win, as far as Dalinar can tell.

Dalinar, at the point he makes this deal, sees no other way to end the war. After all, Odium can just keep re-creating the fused, keep re-creating more superpowered soldiers. Without the contest of champions, the war will go on forever. Before, in previous Desolations, there was at least a way to get a reprieve - the Heralds going back to Braize, starting an Isolation. But with the everstorm - the war will go on forever.

That's not something Dalinar wants. Better to take a risk for a chance at an actual victory.

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On 11/21/2020 at 7:35 AM, TiaOmi said:

How can it end in a tie when it's to the death? They both kill each other at the exact second?

If Todium could find a champion that Dalinar won't kill, that could be a draw, no?

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On 11/21/2020 at 10:06 PM, CROSSENuUP said:

I personally think that the contest of champions will end in a TIE. I believe that Taravangian will see this loophole within the rules and will try to force a tie. Since a tie is not mentioned in the contract, it will probably void the contract and allow Odium to leave the system. This is foreshadowed with Hoid mentioning ties in his gambling tale. Thoughts?

I totally agree that Odium will go for a Tie. Since by Winning and Losing for him would hold him in Roshar and he very much wanted to be free from it to "Save all humanity" (which means humanity in all of Cosmere).

The terms are these:
1. "A contest of Champions to the death."  - This is Mr. T's Key. What if there would be a way for one Champion to not be able to kill the other one? Or both? This will make it Draw. Remember, Champion is not tied to a Human or a Singer... a Champion could be SOMETHING ELSE entirely. This is not in the terms what A Champion could be.

2. "A willing Champion, . . ." Now, this part is separate sentence from the first one which is the contest to the death BUT, I very much think that this is still tied to it. Other than willing to be Champion and become the key to the future of Roshar and maybe Cosmere too, Champions SHOULD be willing to kill the other one. Remember that prophecy or rattle regarding killing a kid? Yeah what if the Champion don't want to kill a kid? This is a bit stretch but still a point to a loophole.

3. "At top of Urithiru and unharmed by either sides". Okay, not showing is lose by default. Unharmed by EITHER side? What if there is a third party?

Mr. T. the fresh Odium will force a Tie one way or another.

Edited by vhaloth
Removed a word.
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Just now, vhaloth said:

I totally agree that Odium will go for a Tie. Since by Winning and Losing for him would hold him in Roshar and he very much wanted to be free from it to "Save all humanity" (which means humanity in all of Cosmere).

The terms are these:
1. "A contest of Champions to the death."  - This is the Mr. T's Key. What if there would be a [redacted] way for one Champion to not be able to kill the other one? Or both? This will make it Draw. Remember, Champion is not tied to a Human or a Singer... a Champion could be SOMETHING ELSE entirely. This is not in the terms what A Champion could be.

2. "A willing Champion, . . ." Now, this part is separate sentence from the first one which is the contest to the death BUT, I very much think that this is still tied to it. Other than willing to be Champion and become the key to the future of Roshar and maybe Cosmere too, Champions SHOULD be willing to kill the other one. Remember that prophecy or rattle regarding killing a kid? Yeah what if the Champion don't want to kill a kid? This is a bit stretch but still a point to a loophole.

3. "At top of Urithiru and unharmed by either sides". Okay, not showing is lose by default. Unharmed by EITHER side? What if there is a third party?

Mr. T. the fresh Odium will force a Tie one way or another.

Or he arranges a situation where his Champion is attacked by either side.

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Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Or he arranges a situation where his Champion is attacked by either side.

Possible, how do they draw a line to the "SIDE" part too. There is too much grey area right now.

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I think the draw is a likely conclusion, but in a way, the most obvious one.

I see two other major alternatives:

Quote

“So, are you going to apologize?” she asked.

“For?”

“For missing our appointment.”

Dalinar froze in midswing. He’d completely forgotten that, at the feast when she’d first returned, he’d agreed to have Navani read for him today. He hadn’t told his scribes of the appointment. He turned toward her, chagrined. He’d been angered because Thanadal had canceled their appointment, but at least he had thought to send a messenger.

Navani stood with arms folded, safehand tucked away, sleek dress seeming to burn with sunlight. She bore a hint of a smile on her lips. By standing her up, he’d put himself—by honor—in her power.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 418). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Hopefully Dalinar doesn't forget his appointment this time. But - if something does prevent either champion from being on time, what happens? This is probably similar to the 'draw' situation, but it's text from the books, and the wording is suspiciously close to Odium's below.

Option 2:

Quote

“Yes. But what if you break your word? You’ve delayed longer than you should have. What if you refuse to send a champion?”

“I cannot break my word,” Odium said, the heat increasing. “I basically am incapable of it.”

“Basically?” Dalinar pressed. “What happens, Odium, if you break your word.”

“Then the contract is void, and I am in your power. Same, but reversed, if you break the contract. You would be in my power, and the restrictions Honor placed upon me—chaining me to the Rosharan system and preventing me from using my powers on most individuals—would be void. But that is not going to happen, and I am not going to break my word. Because if I did, it would create a hole in my soul—which would let Cultivation kill me.

“I am no fool, and you are a man of honor. We will both approach this contest in good faith, Dalinar. This isn’t some deal with a Voidbringer from your myths, where one tricks the other with some silly twist of language. A willing champion from each of us and a fight to the death. They will meet on the top of Urithiru. No tricks, no lies.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (The Stormlight Archive) . Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Odium is not incapable of breaking his word; it just has costs that Rayse!Odium is not willing to pay/risk. Taravangian, on the other hand, has zero compunctions about sacrificing himself to accomplish his goals; indeed, that is practically the essence of his character. So I think we need to look beyond the contract to see what Taravangian could potentially do by breaking the contract, but in a way that results in him achieving his goal anyway.

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5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Or he arranges a situation where his Champion is attacked by either side.

Parade Moash right before Navani's eyes? The problem with that is that he is at the mercy of the other side's discipline.

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Parade Moash right before Navani's eyes? The problem with that is that he is at the mercy of the other side's discipline.

And if he parades Moash in front of Adolin, before the latter has a chance to be debriefed?

He could even pick himself, wait for Dalinar to tell everyone that Odium will be his own Champion, then appear as Taravangian in front of Szeth. There goes the deal...

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It seams to me that everyone is so concentrated in finding Tode's loophole, so none really thinks about the possibility of Dalinar using this loophole to win.

Theory time:)
-Stormfather is a sliver of Honor and the biggest piece of honor shard on Roshar
- Dalinar bonded to Stormdad and this him unique bonsmith (Stormdad always awe at what Dalinar can do with his abilities)
- what other big pieces of Honor do we know? Honorblades
- what if Dalinar bonded almost every blade and they together with the stormdad sliver will be enough for Dalinar to ascend 

If i'm right Dalinar will have a "got you" moment on Tod when he becomes practically immortal and the killing part is the main clause of their agreement. it will be a nice ending for first five and Tod will be forced to find another loophole for the book 6 

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