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Timeline of Book Five


IntentAwesome

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So, will the entirety of book five take place within ten days?

The contest of champions will be in ten days. The epigraphs of part 5 are written by El on the first of the Final Ten Days.

In a recent live stream, Brandon said that something he did in Rhythm of War would be a headache for himself and Karen. The mosT obvious headache would be squeezing 1200 pages of plot into just 10 days.

 

 

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I think the first part would be taking place in ten days, and we'll get a similar RoW jump-start direct into action. 

  • Kaladin and Szeth would fly to Shinovar and search for Ishar. 
  • Dalinar would try to delve deeper into the contest of champions. 

I think we'll not get Adolin or Shallan/Jasnah-Navani arc in part 1 because we already are getting an very essential plot taking place in ten days. It's only fair that the first part remains dedicated to Three-four characters without any flashbacks. 

On the contrary, maybe the part 1 will be divided into 5 days, involving Ishar and Shinovar plot and part 2 will be of rest five days of Kaladin trying to have therapy session with Isi and Dalinar learning more about his powers? Either way, I think Shallan-Adolin plot must take a subsequent backstage in book 5. 

 

 

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It may be worth noting that Lasting Integrity is, essentially, in Tukar - where Ishar was before going into the Shadesmar. The place where Ishar met Dalinar isn't quite on top of Lasting Integrity, but from a global perspective it's pretty close. So I think the lines will converge more than one might expect.

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So, I've got this (maybe) crazy theory that all of the things we've been sold at the end of book 4 as the finish line are actually red herrings.

The Contest of Champions is going to happen... but TOdium is going to weasel out of it with a draw (since both a win and a loss are an end to the war, and neither of them are on terms that are that bad for the humans - as Dalinar remarks at the end of RoW!). In the first four books, the win condition was "Make Odium believe he can lose; then he'll agree to a contest of champions to limit his losses." The Radiants got there. In book 4, they convinced ROdium that he could lose, and he agreed to pretty favorable terms to limit his losses.

...but then ROdium went and got himself killed. And now TOdium doesn't want to play to "limit his losses" - he wants to win. So the Radiants are going to actually have to push for the whole victory instead of getting the easier way out with a Champion.

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9 hours ago, ftl said:

So, I've got this (maybe) crazy theory that all of the things we've been sold at the end of book 4 as the finish line are actually red herrings.

The Contest of Champions is going to happen... but TOdium is going to weasel out of it with a draw (since both a win and a loss are an end to the war, and neither of them are on terms that are that bad for the humans - as Dalinar remarks at the end of RoW!). In the first four books, the win condition was "Make Odium believe he can lose; then he'll agree to a contest of champions to limit his losses." The Radiants got there. In book 4, they convinced ROdium that he could lose, and he agreed to pretty favorable terms to limit his losses.

...but then ROdium went and got himself killed. And now TOdium doesn't want to play to "limit his losses" - he wants to win. So the Radiants are going to actually have to push for the whole victory instead of getting the easier way out with a Champion.

One problem with this, is that unless the duel explicitly overwrites the previous agreement binding Odium to Roshar, there's no particular reason that this would happen.

Also, what does a tie look like? Because even if you have neither side willing to kill the other, that's not actually a tie, it's just a fight that is not over, and will never really end.

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I agree actually.  I think the duel will end sometime in part two.  Maybe even in part one.  Just from a writing perspective the only way to draw out the full length of a SA book in that time frame would be to have a lot of viewpoints, fight scenes, and descriptions.  If you max those out the work quality would probably suffer.

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This is a terrible idea, but if Brandon pulled it off, it would be cool:

Book 5 has 10 parts, each lasting one day. Then there is a double ketek at the end. :)

My serious guess is that the first nine days last for all of Part 1, with Tod setting up his big bad loophole, Part 2 is the actual contest, which Tod wins, Parts 3 and 4 show Dalinar in Damnation, and everyone else looking for their own loophole. Part 5... I don't know. I could see it ending in a happy or sad ending. :/

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19 hours ago, IntentAwesome said:

So, will the entirety of book five take place within ten days?

The contest of champions will be in ten days. The epigraphs of part 5 are written by El on the first of the Final Ten Days.

In a recent live stream, Brandon said that something he did in Rhythm of War would be a headache for himself and Karen. The mosT obvious headache would be squeezing 1200 pages of plot into just 10 days.

 

 

Actually, the most obvious would be that he now needs to nail down EXACTLY when MB Era 2 and especially TLM take place. We know it’s around when the SA 5&6 timeskip takes place, but he hasn’t pinned the exact point. Now that both series are sharing a character within the same time period (Hoid doesn’t count) he really needs to figure out the inter-series timeline.

I figure balancing two series timelines is trickier than managing one.

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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I think it might go something like this:

Part One: the buildup to the contest.  Kaladin and Szeth do not get along.

Part Two: The days before, of, and after the contest.  Everyone is screwed.  Rlain, Adolin, or Renarin are in quite a bit of death danger here.

Part Three: Fallout of the contest, Kaladin and Szeth are forced to put aside their disagreements and work together to help people.  The end of this is likely to have the darkest moment.

Part Four: Counterstrike after the contest.  The eleventh hour, in a way.  If the darkest moment isn't at the end of Part Three, it'll be here.

Part Five: Sanderlanche.  No explanation needed.

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On 21.11.2020 at 6:43 AM, IntentAwesome said:

In a recent live stream, Brandon said that something he did in Rhythm of War would be a headache for himself and Karen. The mosT obvious headache would be squeezing 1200 pages of plot into just 10 days.

Well, Brandon and the people at Dragonsteel are hardly idiots. The conclusion that time would be short if the duell is supposed to be at the end of SA 5 is blindingly obvious. And changing the ten into a 50 or 81 and give some numerological hint about 9 * 9 would have been simple and without consequences. If you have to prepare for combat the fate of a planet hinges upon even a hundred days would feel short.
In fact the obvious problem may exist. He has spoiled that SA 5 won't end with the duell. But why would that bother Karen?

So I doubt it is that. It has to be something either hard to do without or something seemingly inconsequential. For example killing Teft. If he had plans for him in SA 5, well, that's it. But somebody had to die.

22 hours ago, ftl said:

...but then ROdium went and got himself killed. And now TOdium doesn't want to play to "limit his losses" - he wants to win.

Yes. But that plot twist must be old. In fact it most likely ancient. We now know why Nightblood has been on Roshar. We know why Cultivation changed Taravangian.. This feels like a very basic plot point.

22 hours ago, ftl said:

So the Radiants are going to actually have to push for the whole victory instead of getting the easier way out with a Champion.

No. They can. They do not need to. They now have a multitude of options. They just do not know that.

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4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, Brandon and the people at Dragonsteel are hardly idiots. The conclusion that time would be short if the duell is supposed to be at the end of SA 5 is blindingly obvious. And changing the ten into a 50 or 81 and give some numerological hint about 9 * 9 would have been simple and without consequences. If you have to prepare for combat the fate of a planet hinges upon even a hundred days would feel short.
In fact the obvious problem may exist. He has spoiled that SA 5 won't end with the duell. But why would that bother Karen?

So I doubt it is that. It has to be something either hard to do without or something seemingly inconsequential. For example killing Teft. If he had plans for him in SA 5, well, that's it. But somebody had to die.

Yes. But that plot twist must be old. In fact it most likely ancient. We now know why Nightblood has been on Roshar. We know why Cultivation changed Taravangian.. This feels like a very basic plot point.

No. They can. They do not need to. They now have a multitude of options. They just do not know that.

As I noted previously: Brandon has to nail down exactly when W&W takes place so as to avoid SA timeline conflicts. That’s the most likely source of the aforementioned issue.

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3 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

As I noted previously: Brandon has to nail down exactly when W&W takes place so as to avoid SA timeline conflicts. That’s the most likely source of the aforementioned issue.

While that is vertainly true, why is it new and conditional on Rhythm of War? Or are you saying that Brandon decided only when writing Rhythm of War who Thaidakar is?

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Could be because the series are now closely enough intertwined that precise dates matter - Karen needs to actually align Stormlight with Mistborn, rather than just having a general idea of "first this book, then that book". Possibly the decision that caused the headache is whatever makes the timelines so close together.

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Just now, Oltux72 said:

While that is vertainly true, why is it new and conditional on Rhythm of War? Or are you saying that Brandon decided only when writing Rhythm of War who Thaidakar is?

No, I think he intended to write TLM first BEFORE this reveal, but ran out of time. Now he has to write TLM, where Kell will almost certainly show up, with us knowing much more of what the Survivor’s up to than we did.

Before this Brandon could be a lot more fluid with that appearance, because he could be more fluid on whether to drop the Thaidakar reveal in book 4 or 5. By putting it here, he has to be careful that nothing said, done or shown contradicts SA events involving that character. Which means the timeline of BOTH series needs to be very clear.

Also, he may have made the decision to put the reveal here because he’s changed the role Thaidakar and the GBs are going to play in book 5. The way this book ends indicates that something will go down with them in the next book. Wit certainly thought it was important enough to warn Jasnah about.

Per WoB, Kell is not supposed to appear in SA. After this book, if I was a SA only reader, I’d be shocked if Thaidakar didn’t show up in the final book. Pretend you don’t know who Thaidakar is. You’ve never read Mistborn. Of COURSE you expect this mysterious man to show up. Especially after this book had WIT, of all people, feeling the need to bring him up as a threat. This is a mystery you expect to be solved, and not by being told “hey, here are seven books plus two novellas to read.”

I think originally Thaidakar’s identity reveal was planned for book 5. By moving it, it makes a promise to the readers. And that promise means both series timelines need to be lined up.
 

2 minutes ago, ftl said:

Could be because the series are now closely enough intertwined that precise dates matter - Karen needs to actually align Stormlight with Mistborn, rather than just having a general idea of "first this book, then that book". Possibly the decision that caused the headache is whatever makes the timelines so close together.

You summarized my little essay here better than I could have. Thanks! Have a virtual upvote! Sadly, I’m out of real ones. :(

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I am afraid this is a difficult matter, so this will be long.

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

No, I think he intended to write TLM first BEFORE this reveal, but ran out of time.

Reasonable.

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Now he has to write TLM, where Kell will almost certainly show up, with us knowing much more of what the Survivor’s up to than we did.

Right. But we would eventually learn it, wouldn't we? Thaidakar really hasn't done anything except order Kalak to be knifed. The basic order of TLM and SA5 has not been changed. You are merely saying that Brandon switched from

TLM -> RoW -> SA 5 to
RoW -> TLM -> Sa 5, right?

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Before this Brandon could be a lot more fluid with that appearance, because he could be more fluid on whether to drop the Thaidakar reveal in book 4 or 5. By putting it here, he has to be careful that nothing said, done or shown contradicts SA events involving that character.

Well, no. That would suck the same, only later. TLM and SA 5 have to be consistent, no matter what order books are written.

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Also, he may have made the decision to put the reveal here because he’s changed the role Thaidakar and the GBs are going to play in book 5. The way this book ends indicates that something will go down with them in the next book. Wit certainly thought it was important enough to warn Jasnah about.

Shallan has broken up with the Ghostbloods, yes. So the Ghostbloods will retaliate.

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Per WoB, Kell is not supposed to appear in SA.

He won't. He cannot. We are told that he cannot leave home. Shallan is told that. She will expect revenge and so will the readers, but not immediately in person.

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

After this book, if I was a SA only reader, I’d be shocked if Thaidakar didn’t show up in the final book. Pretend you don’t know who Thaidakar is.

I'd expect him to send assassins. I know that he cannot come. I also know that he is on another planet. Travel between planets is done at a speed determined by pack animals or walking speed. Unless you wanted another time jump, I should not expect anybody from any place outside the Rosharan system, not for months.

Are you saying that an average reader will not notice those clues needed to do the calculations?

24 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

You’ve never read Mistborn. Of COURSE you expect this mysterious man to show up.

After being told that he cannot leave home and that being the reason for Shallan's mission in the first place?

 

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21 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid this is a difficult matter, so this will be long.

Reasonable.

Right. But we would eventually learn it, wouldn't we? Thaidakar really hasn't done anything except order Kalak to be knifed. The basic order of TLM and SA5 has not been changed. You are merely saying that Brandon switched from

TLM -> RoW -> SA 5 to
RoW -> TLM -> Sa 5, right?

Well, no. That would suck the same, only later. TLM and SA 5 have to be consistent, no matter what order books are written.

Shallan has broken up with the Ghostbloods, yes. So the Ghostbloods will retaliate.

He won't. He cannot. We are told that he cannot leave home. Shallan is told that. She will expect revenge and so will the readers, but not immediately in person.

I'd expect him to send assassins. I know that he cannot come. I also know that he is on another planet. Travel between planets is done at a speed determined by pack animals or walking speed. Unless you wanted another time jump, I should not expect anybody from any place outside the Rosharan system, not for months.

Are you saying that an average reader will not notice those clues needed to do the calculations?

After being told that he cannot leave home and that being the reason for Shallan's mission in the first place?

 

First off: I accidentally discovered a WoB that indicated that SA was supposed to overlap MB era 3 originally. And he’s been vague on the timelines because he had to move W&W to the time gap and Era 3 even further due to things going on in the background. I think we now can guess at what those ‘background’ things are. And with those ‘background things’ hitting the forefront, this timeline needs to be fixed.

If I was reading this as a stand-alone, I would not expect the first half to end with a major antagonist from a major character’s plot going unseen on page. I’d expect at least one appearance, probably near the end. Possibly because SHALLAN travels to Scadrial.

As long as Thaidakar was almost entirely in the background, I expected him to be a mystery revealed near the end of the first half, to be expanded upon in the second. But with as often as he’s been brought up in this book - and by whom - it would feel really weird to me if we didn’t meet him.

I think it’s a given that we’re going to meet his Avatar.

When you write, plans change. When I write a story my characters broke off an alliance earlier than I’d expected. This changed my overall outline - and I was writing historical fiction! I literally couldn’t change the timeline!

I think Thaidakar’s role changed as Brandon outlined SA 4&5 (which he did together). This has effects on Kell’s probable appearance in TLM. But it also means that he has to carefully line up the MB Era 3 foreshadowing to ensure that it matches with Thaidakar’s altered actions/role in SA.

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1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

First off: I accidentally discovered a WoB that indicated that SA was supposed to overlap MB era 3 originally. And he’s been vague on the timelines because he had to move W&W to the time gap and Era 3 even further due to things going on in the background. I think we now can guess at what those ‘background’ things are. And with those ‘background things’ hitting the forefront, this timeline needs to be fixed.

OK.

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

If I was reading this as a stand-alone, I would not expect the first half to end with a major antagonist from a major character’s plot going unseen on page. I’d expect at least one appearance, probably near the end. Possibly because SHALLAN travels to Scadrial.

She cannot. Mraize also explains that Shallan is trapped in the Rosharan system. Radiant says that a prison of three planets is large enough. So the plot is tight.

I must admit that I thought that we were talking plot issues here, though you never stated it. Are we discussing strictly plot, or more literary issues of pacing and meeting expectrations?

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

As long as Thaidakar was almost entirely in the background, I expected him to be a mystery revealed near the end of the first half, to be expanded upon in the second. But with as often as he’s been brought up in this book - and by whom - it would feel really weird to me if we didn’t meet him.

Well, this book has dropped names without end. And that is where I find myself out of objectivity. I know who Kelsier is. And I cannot switch that off. The sheer number of names and concepts dropped on a reader is huge. And I find myself unable to say whether to a reader limited to the Stormlight Archive it would be more urgent to get to see

  • who is this Thaidakar guy
  • lets find this Nalthis place where they can make Shard Blades that we keep hearing from since Oathbringer
  • an alien Spren! - they must have alien Surges! Priority A1+
  • measuring sand - a world of advanced Investiture technologies. We can finally understand what we are doing,
  • We have learned that obscuring Odium's future sight is even more imporrtant than we thought. We need to capture this Riino fellow and duplicate his device.

 

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3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

OK.

She cannot. Mraize also explains that Shallan is trapped in the Rosharan system. Radiant says that a prison of three planets is large enough. So the plot is tight.

I must admit that I thought that we were talking plot issues here, though you never stated it. Are we discussing strictly plot, or more literary issues of pacing and meeting expectrations?

Well, this book has dropped names without end. And that is where I find myself out of objectivity. I know who Kelsier is. And I cannot switch that off. The sheer number of names and concepts dropped on a reader is huge. And I find myself unable to say whether to a reader limited to the Stormlight Archive it would be more urgent to get to see

  • who is this Thaidakar guy
  • lets find this Nalthis place where they can make Shard Blades that we keep hearing from since Oathbringer
  • an alien Spren! - they must have alien Surges! Priority A1+
  • measuring sand - a world of advanced Investiture technologies. We can finally understand what we are doing,
  • We have learned that obscuring Odium's future sight is even more imporrtant than we thought. We need to capture this Riino fellow and duplicate his device.

 

We actually don’t know that Nightblood is from Nalthis in SA. No one has said it.

It’s the fact that Hoid brought him up TWICE. Plus the fact that a Herald thought he’d killed another Herald. Oh, and Shallan’s whole plot has somewhat revolves around his organization - as has her entire life. Yes, I’d expect her to meet the leader.

I do want to learn more about the sand, and I expect it to be discussed in KoW.

Yes, this about plot, pacing and expectation. If you have someone’s entire plot revolve around a mysterious organization led by an even more mysterious leader, you expect to meet the leader before the story’s end. Brandon is building expectations here, and Shallan and Adolin seem to be being set up for Cosmere exploration.

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1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

We actually don’t know that Nightblood is from Nalthis in SA. No one has said it.

Right. But Azure and her Blade have been confirmed. And she has admitted that she can make more.

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It’s the fact that Hoid brought him up TWICE. Plus the fact that a Herald thought he’d killed another Herald. Oh, and Shallan’s whole plot has somewhat revolves around his organization - as has her entire life. Yes, I’d expect her to meet the leader.

Well, we expect more Ghostbloody stuff. Their leader? I must yield to the majority attitude here.

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I do want to learn more about the sand, and I expect it to be discussed in KoW.

Yes, this about plot, pacing and expectation. If you have someone’s entire plot revolve around a mysterious organization led by an even more mysterious leader, you expect to meet the leader before the story’s end. Brandon is building expectations here, and Shallan and Adolin seem to be being set up for Cosmere exploration.

Shallan, no - she is trapped as a Radiant. Adolin - yes.

Though that may also be an issue.

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Right. But Azure and her Blade have been confirmed. And she has admitted that she can make more.

Well, we expect more Ghostbloody stuff. Their leader? I must yield to the majority attitude here.

Shallan, no - she is trapped as a Radiant. Adolin - yes.

Though that may also be an issue.

There are ways to get Spren off Roshar. Considering the plot of this book for Shallan, I wouldn’t be surprised if she figures it out.

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16 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

There are ways to get Spren off Roshar. Considering the plot of this book for Shallan, I wouldn’t be surprised if she figures it out.

When? Do you expect a time skip within SA 5? The duell is scheduled for 10 days hence. It would take weeks to even walk to the edge of Roshar's substral. And what would motivate her to depart as soon as possible?

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Just now, Oltux72 said:

When? Do you expect a time skip within SA 5? The duell is scheduled for 10 days hence. It would take weeks to even walk to the edge of Roshar's substral. And what would motivate her to depart as soon as possible?

I expect the duel to occur at the end of Part one or two, and the rest is fallout.

Shallan figures out the worldhopping when she finds/frees Ba-Ado-Mishram, which she’s clearly going to do. Hunting BAM takes most of the book and is her primary arc. If she confronts Thaidakar, which I do think she will, it happens all the way at the end of the book.

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8 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

No, I think he intended to write TLM first BEFORE this reveal, but ran out of time. Now he has to write TLM, where Kell will almost certainly show up, with us knowing much more of what the Survivor’s up to than we did.

This is why Starsight irritates me.  Not only was it not particularly good by Brandon's standards, it's what robbed us of the opportunity to get TLM on schedule.

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