[Discuss] Windrunner 5th Ideal

[The Sibling]

I think that maybe the next oath will be something like "I will help others to protect" or "I understand that I am not the right person to protect everyone." This probably sounds like a bit of a repeat of the fourth oath, but I think that it's pretty important. I looked through the suggestions (not all of them so someone might already have said this) and  I thought that some of them were really good. The suggestions made think that the fifth ideal is probably going to be pretty different than the first four.

On 4/20/2023 at 7:11 PM, Nogo said:

what did the radiants swear millennia ago?

I read this and I thought, the Recreance happened because the radiants realized that surgebinding destroyed their old planet. They realized that though they were trying to protect, they were actually causing harm. They had to leave it to others to protect humanity. 

[markymarc18]

Okay, my prediction on Kaladin's Fifth Ideal. Either it's: "I will protect all life/people." -- or -- "I will protect me from myself."

There's a line from Moash/Vyre's first interlude in RoW that leads me to the former. Rodium has a toss-away line about Kaladin being ironically more dangerous to him long-term since he didn't join Dalinar on the Emuli front. I think that may indicate Kaladin is meant to stop killing

The latter is because of Kaladin's history of depression and struggles with suicidal ideation.

I dunno! ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

[Firesong]

8 hours ago, markymarc18 said:

Okay, my prediction on Kaladin's Fifth Ideal. Either it's: "I will protect all life/people." -- or -- "I will protect me from myself."

There's a line from Moash/Vyre's first interlude in RoW that leads me to the former. Rodium has a toss-away line about Kaladin being ironically more dangerous to him long-term since he didn't join Dalinar on the Emuli front. I think that may indicate Kaladin is meant to stop killing

The latter is because of Kaladin's history of depression and struggles with suicidal ideation.

I dunno! ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

On this, while Ideals are partially personalized to an extent (especially Lightweavers, which are basically 100% personalized), we also have to find an Ideal that could be general for all Windrunners. I feel "I will protect me from myself", while it is very much fitting for Kaladin, I don't feel it would be general enough for Windrunners. 

Protecting all people is basically something already dealt with in the Third Ideal, which was protecting even those that you hate. 

If we analyze each Ideal

• Second Ideal: Vowing to protect the defenceless
• Third Ideal: Protecting even those that you hate, it is based around protecting people despite your own feelings on them
• Forth Ideal: Still choosing to protect people even while knowing that you won't always succeed and get the satisfaction of succeeding in it. It is protection for the sake of it being the right thing to do.  

Each one is about a more and more selfless form of protection, moving it further and further away from protection for the sake of yourself, and into doing it simply due to the fact it is the right thing to do. 

Looking at the Fifth Ideal of Skybreakers being becoming Law, the most extreme form of the Ideals beforehand, it is probably some form of full devotion to protection. Not sure how exactly that would manifest, though. 

[Huntingorange]

I was thinking about this, I think I have an idea and it's been foreshadowed the entire series. 

 

"I will trust/believe that they can protect themselves"

 

Kaladin has believed that those he cares about cannot protect themselves and he needs to be the one to save them. He barely believes he can keep them alive when he is there and lives in anxiety when he isn't. 

 

As for what benefits it might give, dunno but probably a higher control of his powers third ability. I also wanna think an aura, able to gather minute amounts of stormlight from the winds and pulls it to him or others

[The Sibling]

6 hours ago, Huntingorange said:

"I will trust/believe that they can protect themselves"

 

Hmmm. Cool idea!

I like this a lot, especially for Kaladin. I find it a bit similar to the fourth ideal, but there is certainly enough of a meaningful difference. Kaladin struggled to accept that his squad was breaking apart in RoW, and even though the fourth ideal somewhat covers this, I find your idea a nice addition. Sure, there are some people that Kaladin can't protect, but it's important for him to understand how to give people the tools they need to protect themselves, and then trust them enough to go and do it. 

This also reminds me of something that was theorized a little while ago. I don't remember who said this and I might be phrasing it wrong but something like "I will teach others to protect themselves"? I really like these ideas. 

Also, welcome to the shard!

Edited August 18, 2023 by The Sibling
bad spelling

[Shadow of Electrum]

I don't know if anyone is still thinking about this thread, but after reading a couple entries I was thinking that maybe the 5th ideal could be something like "I will define protection".

Considering the Skybreaker's 5th ideal, and the fact that Kaladin has mentioned multiple times that 'what is right' is to him has me thinking that it might come up again as a point of contention in book 5. So maybe the 5th ideal is about deciding what is right and what truly counts as protecting a person, as that seems similar enough to "I will become law" at least thematically.

[JohnnyKaizen]

38 minutes ago, AvonZapper said:

I don't know if anyone is still thinking about this thread, but after reading a couple entries I was thinking that maybe the 5th ideal could be something like "I will define protection".

Considering the Skybreaker's 5th ideal, and the fact that Kaladin has mentioned multiple times that 'what is right' is to him has me thinking that it might come up again as a point of contention in book 5. So maybe the 5th ideal is about deciding what is right and what truly counts as protecting a person, as that seems similar enough to "I will become law" at least thematically.

Or instead of "define" possibly "understand" or better accept what protection is and isn't? But if they become protection as Skybreakers become the law, then that would track.

[Berti]

I was thinking about the final ideal in context of Recreance.

First of all, do we know if or how many 5th ideal windrunners existed at that time?

Secondly, the oath is broken when a Radiant act against it. I don't think we know the exact mechanism. I think once there was a WoB when Brandon said it could be broken by either a spren or a humant. So probably just the intent.
So let's imagine a situation that you act in a certain way and accordingly to your oaths. Then you learn about the truth about who is the real voidbringers. In context of new information you realised you were breaking your oaths. Or your actions are not justified anymore by the oaths. And your spren realiesed with you. That's why "WE CHOSE". And still I think we don't know if spren chose or spren AND humans chose.

So, finally, what would be the 5th windrunners ideal that is broken by such circumstances?

I will protect the right ones even if they're not the ones I love
I won't protect if it causes the harm of others
I will protect the rightfull ones
I will know who needs protecting ( similar to "I am law")
edit: I will protect for greater good

(sorry if I messed up some grammar. english is not my first language)

Edited September 3, 2023 by Berti

[Mason Wheeler]

31 minutes ago, Berti said:

Then you learn about the truth about who is the real voidbringers.

"The real voidbringers" are who they always have been: the followers of Odium, who cast their emotional complexities into his Void to more easily commit atrocities.  The fact that someone else used to do that doesn't make the people who do it now any less real.  The Stormfather makes this clear: in the past, Honor was able to help them put this in perspective so that they didn't draw the wrong conclusion from a shocking emotional revelation, and it was only when he began to lose his grip and was unable to do this effectively that everything went off the rails.

[11thTrueSpren]

So I have been thinking quite a bit on this topic for some time. Throughout all four books out so far, Kaladin and Lirin have been at odds on how to protect. I think Lirin actually would have been a 5th ideal Windrunner from the get-go if he had bonded an Honorspren. Essentially, Lirin has been trying to teach Kaladin the four ideals of the Windrunners throughout The Way of Kings. For example:

In the first portion of tWoK, Lirin always talking about protecting people. He has been adament about protecting others through not killing. This sets up the theme of protecting others - the 2nd oath

Later on when Roshone is lying on the surgery table dying, Lirin has the opportunity to either let Roshone die, or sever his femoral artery and kill him outright. He chooses not to do this because it was not right. As a surgeon, Lirin saves/protects those he hates - 3rd oath.

The flashback chapter Scarlet from Kaladin’s perspective when he is trying to save a little girl. She ends up dying as he is trying to save her and this impacts him severely as seen later in the chapter. In this chapter, Lirin explains to Kaladin that he will grow calluses, and that he needs to accept that he can’t save everyone - 4th oath

The 5th oath was foreshadowed in the chapter Wandersail. This comes in the early part of the chapter when Maps dies and Kaladin is unable to save him. Kaladin hears Lirin’s voice saying “You have to learn when to care.” I think that this is foreshadowing the 5th oath of the Winderunners. Despite Kaladin having accepted that he can’t save everyone, how does he choose when to save someone and when not to? A number of posts on this topic have alluded to this point as well. This could be seen as a leadership attribute as well: when do we retreat and when do we press the attack? This seems to at least be a logical step for Kaladin to understand how to protect someone. He has accepted he can’t save everyone, but how does one choose when to save someone and when to let them go and save yourself? This could also be symmetrical as some posts have talked about. He has previously committed to protecting those who can’t protect themselves. This will help him choose when to protect if there are multiple people who need saving and that Kaladin needs to choose. 

So my thought for the 5th oath is something along the lines of knowing when to protect and when to let go.

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ]

On 9/13/2023 at 2:25 PM, 11thTrueSpren said:

So I have been thinking quite a bit on this topic for some time. Throughout all four books out so far, Kaladin and Lirin have been at odds on how to protect. I think Lirin actually would have been a 5th ideal Windrunner from the get-go if he had bonded an Honorspren. Essentially, Lirin has been trying to teach Kaladin the four ideals of the Windrunners throughout The Way of Kings. For example:

In the first portion of tWoK, Lirin always talking about protecting people. He has been adament about protecting others through not killing. This sets up the theme of protecting others - the 2nd oath

Later on when Roshone is lying on the surgery table dying, Lirin has the opportunity to either let Roshone die, or sever his femoral artery and kill him outright. He chooses not to do this because it was not right. As a surgeon, Lirin saves/protects those he hates - 3rd oath.

The flashback chapter Scarlet from Kaladin’s perspective when he is trying to save a little girl. She ends up dying as he is trying to save her and this impacts him severely as seen later in the chapter. In this chapter, Lirin explains to Kaladin that he will grow calluses, and that he needs to accept that he can’t save everyone - 4th oath

The 5th oath was foreshadowed in the chapter Wandersail. This comes in the early part of the chapter when Maps dies and Kaladin is unable to save him. Kaladin hears Lirin’s voice saying “You have to learn when to care.” I think that this is foreshadowing the 5th oath of the Winderunners. Despite Kaladin having accepted that he can’t save everyone, how does he choose when to save someone and when not to? A number of posts on this topic have alluded to this point as well. This could be seen as a leadership attribute as well: when do we retreat and when do we press the attack? This seems to at least be a logical step for Kaladin to understand how to protect someone. He has accepted he can’t save everyone, but how does one choose when to save someone and when to let them go and save yourself? This could also be symmetrical as some posts have talked about. He has previously committed to protecting those who can’t protect themselves. This will help him choose when to protect if there are multiple people who need saving and that Kaladin needs to choose. 

So my thought for the 5th oath is something along the lines of knowing when to protect and when to let go.

I think that is a really good point. That is a reacuring theme Kaladin thinks about a ton. Have the other oaths been related to what Lirin says at all? I don’t have time for the research.

Edited September 17, 2023 by ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ
Mistype if Lirin into Aleni: someone who does not exist.

[11thTrueSpren]

Who is “Alieni”?

[First of the Dun]

On 11/21/2020 at 1:34 PM, IndigoAjah said:

I Will Know When To Protect Myself

This was my thinking as well, whether it’s the 5th or something later 

[The Honorable One]

I think it’ll be something along the lines of: “I will let others protect me, even if it is from myself.”

Edited September 21, 2023 by The Honorable One

[ΨιτιsτηεΒέsτ]

On 9/16/2023 at 6:36 PM, 11thTrueSpren said:

Who is “Alieni”?

Lirin. Also what if it is more braid. For example, what virtue is protection? Could it be about that virtue?

[Nyght]

I've been re-reading the first book and Kaladin keeps going back to what his dad use to say. 

“My father used to say that there are two kinds of people in the world," Kaladin whispered, voice raspy. "He said there are those who take lives. And there are those who save lives."

This has strong sense of foreshadowing to me since Kaladin believed that sometimes you needed to take life in order to protect life.

I believe that his Fifth Ideal might be something along the lines of "I will protect without killing."

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

On 1/26/2023 at 6:16 PM, Benedictify said:

Kaladin's Fifth Ideal will be "I will never give up."

There will be a new Oathpact, created by Ishar and/or Dalinar. Kaladin will take it onto himself alone, like Taln. He will go to Braize to be tortured, at least til Book 6, if not longer. 

He is "The Spear That Would Not Break", to quote him during the fight with Amaram in Oathbringer, and he will be the new "Bearer of Agonies," as Taln was.

No, that should be the first part of it.

The whole oath should be.

I will never give up

I will never let down

I will never turn around

and hurt you.

[Immortal Platypus]

16 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

No, that should be the first part of it.

The whole oath should be.

I will never give up

I will never let down

I will never turn around

and hurt you.

Thaid, that one hurts

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

2 hours ago, Being of Cacophony said:

Thaid, that one hurts

It isn't my ideal...

[Immortal Platypus]

1 hour ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

It isn't my ideal...

yeah, but it still hurts

[Lord Spirit]

Interesting quote from ninjago "I was made to protect those who cannot protect themselves" -zane.

"coincidence? I think not!"

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

12 minutes ago, Being of Cacophony said:

yeah, but it still hurts

Syladin ship oath time-

[Immortal Platypus]

46 minutes ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

Syladin ship oath time-

shut your mouth Thaid, I will be so mad if that is his fifth Ideal

[Thaidakar the Ghostblood]

Just now, Being of Cacophony said:

shut your mouth Thaid, I will be so mad if that is his fifth Ideal

Time to somehow convince the editor to throw it in at the last moment.

[Immortal Platypus]

1 minute ago, Thaidakar the Ghostblood said:

Time to somehow convince the editor to throw it in at the last moment.

I will find you and commit war crimes. I will be so mad you don't understand