[Discuss] Windrunner 5th Ideal

[Dreamwa1ker Son of Honor]

On 5/18/2021 at 8:15 PM, Bejardin1250 said:

My problem with this one is that there isn’t a problem with wanting to protect people when their going to war

Its a good thing to want to protect

I'm going to take a different path on this one - I think 5th ideal will have to do with the Leadership aspect of the Windrunners in conjunction with the Protection theme.

I don't know the right words to put it in a simple phrase, but basically as a leader of a group that is charged with protecting people in general, you might have to send someone on a mission where they will almost certainly die, in order to protect. So I'm thinking something around acknowledging that he may have to give an order that someone else e.g. another Knight sacrifice themselves to protect others. I think if phrased or contextualized correctly it can still fit with the first ideal. And would be a hard one for Kaladin. It is further than 4th ideal because it's not just not being able to protect someone but actually having to make a decision or order more actively. And fits with some of Lirin's triage type lessons.

I think of this one a lot around an episode of Star Trek TNG where Troi is taking a test to become a bridge officer, the final exam there's a horrible disaster and to pass you have to be willing to give an order that would send a crewmate to get it shut down and save everyone, into an area they'll get exposed to lethal doses.  https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Bridge_Officer's_Test

Edited May 20, 2021 by Dreamwa1ker

[TheCruelSadist Noble]

On 11/21/2020 at 6:47 AM, Czernobog said:

The Windunner ideals seem to be progessing from more external to internal, i.e. from protecting others, to more internal epiphanies related to that first oath.

My guess is that the Fifth will be something along the lines of a mirror of the First. Perhaps "I acknowledge that others can protect me, and I am worth protecting."

  I reeeeaaaallly like this.  "You're worth more than what you can give to other people."

[Vay Skaa]

On 22/11/2020 at 0:20 AM, Djerf said:

Following the skybreakers progression, in spoiler. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

2. Also called the Ideal of Justice, this is a specific oath to seek and administer justice

3. Also called the Ideal of Dedication, this is a specific oath to dedicate oneself to a greater truth, either a code or, sometimes, a person

4. This Ideal is also called the Ideal of Crusade, and requires that a Skybreaker undertake a personal quest and complete it to the satisfaction of their highsprhighspren. 

5. Called the Ideal of Law, this Ideal requires the Skybreaker to swear an oath that they will become a personification of law and truth.

 

2 the foundation of justice is the law.

3 there is justice outside the law.

4 not all law is just (in Szeth's case at least, killing of the ruling class has to be illegal locally)  or there is injustices that the law cannot reach.

5 I am the law.

There is a great deal of personal touch to the interpretation of the ideals, according the the coppermind a skybreaker at lvl 5 could either ignore the law as written or have to follow every law that had been written and arguably they could be the ones to decide which law is just.

The initial reaction is that the oaths progress by reinforcing the primary and secondary attributes Just/Confident and that ones perception is the deciding factor in determining which. 

 

The way I see it there's three important points to the fifth oath for Kaladin, his path to where he is now and the duality of perception of his attributes, and the general trend of the oaths thus far. Offhand the longest running problem for Kaladin has been to kill or not to kill. 

Kaladins progression of oaths has thus far been. "I will protect. I will protect when even when I don't want to. Sometimes I can't protect when I want to. " The most natural to follow that would be "sometimes i shouldn't protect" 

So the fifth oath should satisfy the question if it is right to kill in order to protect, the " i will not protect" symmetry as well as the duality of protecting/ leading. 

The only thing I can think of is " I will protect/respect/enable the choice of others" or " I will protect those who (desirable trait/action/allegiance)" 

The specific wording should be about just as much protecting as leading but is past midnight here so I will leave that for another day.

I really like this idea and I think it makes sense if we assume the next big plot point for Kaladin is Moash/Vyre. At this point Kaladin could probably kill Moash in a heated battle, but anything like an execution, even as mercy, is imo out of the question.

"Sometimes I should not protect" would also match what "I am Law" does for a Skybreaker, ie. it lifts the moral limitation while trusting the KR to follow the spirit of the order anyway? We see Nale following the letter of all local laws despite the 5th Ideal, but being the law himself, he *could* probably override them. Same way "Sometimes I should not protect" would leave it to Kaladin and Syl to decide when not to protect. 

[Unite Them Lighteyes]

It's totally just going to be "I will protect myself"

[Master Silver Gyorn]

On 7/29/2021 at 0:41 PM, Unite Them said:

It's totally just going to be "I will protect myself"

And then Moash will die :-D

[Nameless* Steel Inquisitor]

The only problem that Kaladin has left that requires an ideal is not protecting himself; he's doing that already. It's not accepting that there are people who can protect themselves, that was part of his 4th oath. It's not about letting other people protect him; he has no problem with that in Oathbringer, and he's never really had a problem with it. The reason Kaladin has been so self-destructive with his behavior is because he feared failing to protect people. He's let go of that guilt now, so he won't have problem anymore. Kaladin's only remaining issue that needs to be addressed by an ideal is how to protect. in tWoK, Kaladin's father insisted that you cannot kill to protect. Kaladin killed parshendi to save Dalinar, and realized that he didn't know if killing parshendi was the right thing to do. In WoR, Kaladin realized that killing Elhokar was the wrong way to protect. In OB, Kaladin was finally forced to face his greatest problem: how is it right to kill people if they don't deserve to die. He sees the parshmen that he protected and can't kill them. in RoW, Kaladin tries to find a different way to protect. He becomes a surgeon, and tries to protect without killing. But he can't. Urithiru is invaded, and he has to fight to protect it. I don't think that it's a coincidence that Kaladin is going to Shinovar, the one place in all of Roshar that looks on killing as wrong, no matter what the circumstances are.

[jamesbondsmith Vanisher]

I'll hedge my bets with a few options:

I will protect myself in order to protect others - can't protect people if you martyred yourself last time, or if they get unintentionally abandoned mid-rescue.

I will give people the means to protect themselves - this ties into leadership, teaching and empowering people.

I will make a world that people don't need protecting from - this is one of the least combat focused options, and could be hard for such a combat focused order to swear.

I will extend protection to each according to their need - not sure about wording, but basically embodying a concept of triage.

I agree that it should be hard to swear, and each option is hard for a frontline, protective person to live up to (short vs long term, letting people do it themselves, going behind the scenes, choosing who should be saved with limited resources).

[LewsTherinTelescope Radiant Squire]

6 hours ago, Nameless said:

It's not accepting that there are people who can protect themselves, that was part of his 4th oath.

I don't agree, though I can see why many would feel that way on it and used to read it that way myself. He's at the stage where he can forgive himself if he fails to protect everyone, but that doesn't mean that he's at the stage where he will actively step back from trying to do so. (Though I think this is more relevant to trolley problem type scenarios or "can only save one" scenarios than people who can indeed protect themselves fine, I can see the Ideal covering the latter but don't see it covering the former.)

Edited July 31, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[Nameless* Steel Inquisitor]

8 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I don't agree, though I can see why many would feel that way on it and used to read it that way myself. He's at the stage where he can forgive himself if he fails to protect everyone, but that doesn't mean that he's at the stage where he will actively step back from trying to do so. (Though I think this is more relevant to trolley problem type scenarios or "can only save one" scenarios than people who can indeed protect themselves fine, I can see the Ideal covering the latter but don't see it covering the former.)

The reason he was so overprotective was because he couldn't forgive himself for failure. Now that he can do that, he'll be less overprotective.

[LewsTherinTelescope Radiant Squire]

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

The reason he was so overprotective was because he couldn't forgive himself for failure. Now that he can do that, he'll be less overprotective.

I think it will help to an extent, but I don't feel it will fully solve the issue. (Though as I said, I think the larger issue will be more having to choose when there's no easy option than a clear "they can protect themselves, so I'll let them" scenario.)

[robardin Bondsmith]

We've seen that the Ideals are shaped by the individual Windrunner's hang-ups. I wonder what Teft's or Lopen's might have been or will be in terms of "accepting limits" on their desire to protect for their Fourth...

...But in terms of the Final Ideal of the Windrunners, we can safely say that Kaladin's Final Ideal has to be even harder for him to reach than it was for him to "learn to deal with failures in protecting". So what could that be?

Kaladin's barrier to the Fourth Ideal was so strong that it nearly led him to suicide or to falling to Odium to escape the pain of it - which was key to Odium's ploy to gain Kaladin as his Champion in lieu of Dalinar via Moash.

And plot-wise, it feels like Kaladin reaching the Fifth Ideal (or dying trying) will be a big component of the climax of SA5.

So from a writerly perspective, I suspect Kaladin's Final Ideal will tie in to the climactic ending to the Contest of Champions, whether or not Kaladin is that Champion.

We've wondered who Odium's Champion will be: Taravangian is a much more wily Vessel than Rayse, and thinks he sees a way to "win either way". It won't be simply be "the best fighter I can send in", but someone with a built-in advantage.

Put that way, it won't be someone he believes Honor's Champion might find impossible to kill (e.g., Gavinor), because that's not "winning either way". It would be someone who, if killed by Honor's Champion, only furthers his goals as well.

Dalinar is planning to be his own Champion, but hey, there are still ten days for him to change his mind, so perhaps it will be Kaladin in the end after all.

What if the Fifth Ideal is about dealing with the idea of killing someone he's previously sworn to protect (Odium's Champion), in the name of the greater good?

I mean the Final Ideal CAN'T actually be that (given how Kaladin reached the Third Ideal), but it could be that Odium will try to make it seem like that's the only two choices on the table. So that if Kaladin does kill his Champion, it would represent Kaladin breaking his oaths and then falling to him, to then become his chief agent in the Cosmere as he'd wanted after Dalinar escaped that fate in Oathbringer. Or else, he gets Dalinar after all. Win/win.

In that case, I would guess the "someone Kaladin had sworn to protect" is Moash. Kaladin still thought of him that way even after he killed two innocent villagers and Roshone in Hearthstone, that what Moash had become was something he could/should have prevented - but would any part of him still feel that way after HE'D. KILLED. TEFT?

What if he were dealing with a blinded Moash, anguished after Odium abruptly withdraws his emotional void, begging his only and truest friend for forgiveness or release of death for all he's done while admitting he doesn't deserve it?

But, Dalinar wouldn't have this kind of hang-up with Moash. For this to work, "Todium" would have to be separately machinating to get Dalinar to send Kaladin to the Contest of Champions.

And while I feel like it'd be far too easy an out, depending on how it is written, perhaps Kaladin then finds a version of the Fifth Ideal that enables him to "save" Moash but to "kill" Vyre to fulfill the conditions of the Contest. (Why else go to the specific detail of saying that Moash was "reborn to Odium with a new name" in Oathbringer?)

[Mason Wheeler Spinner]

@robardin On one hand, this explanation fits in so well with the existing themes.  But on the other hand, screw Moash.  No one wants him to get a redemption story!  So I really hope this isn't what ends up happening.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Mason Wheeler

[robardin Bondsmith]

11 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

@robardin On one hand, this explanation fits in so well with the existing themes.  But on the other hand, screw Moash.  No one wants him to get a redemption story!  So I really hope this isn't what ends up happening.

I didn't say he'd be "redeemed", I said I imagined Kaladin could be presented with a no-win scenario in killing him. (Or rather, from Todium's perspective, a win-win scenario.)

"Killing Vyre but saving Moash" doesn't mean Moash is reinstated to Bridge Four to live out a long and happy life. It could be saving him a la reviving "Smeagol" in Gollum in LOTR, to use a standard fantasy example.

[Dreamwa1ker Son of Honor]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

I didn't say he'd be "redeemed", I said I imagined Kaladin could be presented with a no-win scenario in killing him. (Or rather, from Todium's perspective, a win-win scenario.)

"Killing Vyre but saving Moash" doesn't mean Moash is reinstated to Bridge Four to live out a long and happy life. It could be saving him a la reviving "Smeagol" in Gollum in LOTR, to use a standard fantasy example.

Moash = Anakin, Vyre = Vader

Killing Vyre to protect Moash ...

[Moiraine Spearman]

Maybe the 5th ideal will be related to the idea of sacrifice. “I accept that people may sacrifice themselves” or (stronger) “I accept that people may sacrifice themselves (or simply put themselves in danger) to protect me” or (even stronger, and I think that it is also a bit against what Windrunners stand for if not phrased correctly) “I accept that I might need to sacrifice some to protect all’.

[Psykopathic Pahn Kahl]

Sorry if this has been said. BUT he is starting as a mental health psychiatrist. He is now protecting the mind. The whole ordeal with him and his father since day 1 is saving without killing. Do I have to kill to protect? Etc etc. 

 

Like it has been a straight beeline to "I can protect without killing" from day 1 in my opinion. My only issue is it seems too obvious. 

Sorry again if I overlooked

 

 

Edit - just randomly thinking it over again, think about the duels with the fused and Leshwi. They fought honorably and did not kill each other. Because Kaladin knew if he spared them then in return they would spare his men. I think he is heading towards peace. Physical and mental peace. And he could still die regardless. Achieve inner peace. Die as a martyr because you decide you won't kill. 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Psykopathic

[ConfusedCow Arbiter]

Alright here's my ending pitch with the oaths, guaranteed hundred percent accurate.  Shallan is kidnapped.  Adolin goes to save her but Kaladin is given a different mission.  Kaladin's oath "I will protect the ones I love!". He saves Shallan.  Shallan's final truth, "I love Kaladin." Adolin glares, "You wouldn't like me when I'm angry".   Back at the tower, Dalinar's oath, "I will sacrifice that which I love most." Dalinar tells Szeth to kill Adolin. Szeth's final oath, "I will tell others when that is not my problem."   Dalinar, Shallan, and Kaladin fight Adolin and lose. Renarin steps up, "I will be the man I have always wanted to be, you brother."  Todium laughs, "yes kill him, embrace the darkside. Roshar will be ours and then the galaxy."  As Szeth leaves, Jasnah oneshots him and takes Nightblood, "that's for my dad, I'm the best forever". Kills Todium.  

[Frustration Sliver]

8 minutes ago, ConfusedCow said:

Alright here's my ending pitch with the oaths, guaranteed hundred percent accurate.  Shallan is kidnapped.  Adolin goes to save her but Kaladin is given a different mission.  Kaladin's oath "I will protect the ones I love!". He saves Shallan.  Shallan's final truth, "I love Kaladin." Adolin glares, "You wouldn't like me when I'm angry".

But that won't happen

Spoiler

Questioner

Was Adolin and Shallan always the endgame, or did you ever shift to Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

I did shift, back and forth. So, what I do with a lot of my relationships is, I don't usually plan them out. A lot of characterization, I have to leave the characters kind of their own volition. So I write my way into relationships and I write my way into the character elements. I plot my world, my setting, and my plot out ahead of time but I let the characters go where they're going to go. I know some people would rather she made a different decision, but that is the decision that felt right to me going forward.

I've just validated all the Shallarin people on the internet saying, "Aw, he changed his mind!"

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

 

Kanrei (paraphrased)

Will there be love triangle between Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Not really a love triangle, more like confusion of teenagers about fact who they are attracted to.

Warsaw signing (March 18, 2017)

Questioner (paraphrased)

Please don't tell me you're going to do a love triangle between Adolin, Kaladin, and Shallan.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

*carefully* I'm not a fan of the traditional love triangle. However, I am fond of conflict in relationships.

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)

That plotline is resolved

[apepi Forescout]

I was thinking about the 5th oaths and I think like the Sky Breaker "I am the law", Windrunner is "I am the Wind" and with this, they actually somewhat become part of the wind by somewhat fusing with their spren, becoming the embodiment of that attribute or ideal that spren themselves are.

[Zoey House Lord]

On 11/20/2020 at 11:36 PM, ftl said:

Well, I'm going to guess that the fifth oath is something Kaladin is going to swear in the next book. The fourth oath was pretty straightforwardly what he'd been struggling against for most of the last two books, so it's not a surprise, but how tough it's been for him means that we probably have missed the foreshadowing of the fifth oath. I think we HAD to have some foreshadowing of the fifth oath, because giving Kaladin a totally new thing to struggle against would feel weird if we haven't had inkings of it before.

It might be something to do with his new work helping people with their mental health. That got just a few chapters in this book - enough to show that it was important, but not enough to say that that storyline is complete.

Hmm.  think the fifth oath is going to be something about how you have to protect the whole person - mind, body, and spirit. Most of the protecting that Kaladin has done personally has been about preventing people from being stabbed - understandable, because they're in a war. But more abstract things like protecting a person's independence, protecting their spirit, are still there.

Maybe it'll build on the fourth oath. The fourth oath was only about acceptance, knowing that a Windrunner can't protect everyone. But the fifth might be when he recognizes that some things are more important to protect against than bodily harm. I still think there's more realizations to be had there. Yeah, Kaladin is now accepting that sometimes, he'll fail and not protect someone. But there's a step further - times when Kaladin could step in and protect someone from physical damage, but shouldn't, because protecting that person's autonomy or integrity or honor or something else is also important.

That would fit with the direction he is going about being more and more focused on helping peoples psychological state in RoW, helping those with less physical pains. It would fit to protect people in all ways. 

[Master Silver Gyorn]

So I am not sure if this has been stated, we know the fifth ideal for Sky Breakers is "I am the Law."  I know, I am Protection", has already been proposed. But why do Wind Runners protect? Because it is the right thing to do. "I will protect even those I hate, so long as it is right." But we also know that the Wind Runners have the closest ties to Honor. And Tanavast died protecting mankind. And for those reasons, I believe the fifth ideal is, "I am Honor." Maybe the first Wind Runner to swear the fifth ideal will ascend, or perhaps the full power of the Shard will be shared, because Honor is not dead so long as he lives within the hearts of men.

[Stoneward66 Spren]

I am The Wind. I am the Storm. . This idea is personnel and shows his ultimate strength.

[Tglassy Forger]

I've always thought one of the Ideals would be "I will allow those who can to protect themselves."  That's related to "I accept that there are those I cannot protect."  It would be about focusing on who need protection.  

Dalinar in Oathbringer?  Didn't need protection, but Kaladin hyperfocused on him, potentially to the detriment of others.  The fourth ideal fixes SOME of that, but only just.  Accepting that he can't protect Dalinar isn't QUITE the same as accepting that Dalinar doesn't need his protection.  It's a clarification, the same way "I will protect even those I hate" is a clerification of "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves."  

 

Just my thoughts.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Tglassy

[Savage Spren]

I feel like the fifth ideal will be something about having to protect himself. Kal has the inclination to be reckless because he doesn’t care if he survives. Or because fighting makes him more depressed and this will force him to helping other with mental health issues.

[Nameless* Steel Inquisitor]

On 10/18/2021 at 5:11 PM, Tglassy said:

I've always thought one of the Ideals would be "I will allow those who can to protect themselves."  That's related to "I accept that there are those I cannot protect."  It would be about focusing on who need protection.  

Dalinar in Oathbringer?  Didn't need protection, but Kaladin hyperfocused on him, potentially to the detriment of others.  The fourth ideal fixes SOME of that, but only just.  Accepting that he can't protect Dalinar isn't QUITE the same as accepting that Dalinar doesn't need his protection.  It's a clarification, the same way "I will protect even those I hate" is a clerification of "I will protect those who cannot protect themselves."  

 

Just my thoughts.

I think that the fourth ideal does cover that. Kaladin was so focused on protecting Dalinar because he was couldn't deal with failing to save him. That's why he failed to say the fourth ideal in Shadesmar. He would've needed to accept that he had to let Dalinar protect himself, and he couldn't do that yet.