Mason Wheeler

[Discuss] Windrunner 5th Ideal

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We know that the Skybreakers' fifth Ideal -- the only 5th that we know of so far -- is to become the law.  This works for the Order of Skybreakers, but not particularly well for others.  Specifically, now that Kaladin has sworn the 4th Ideal where he admits he can't protect everyone, he can't contradict that for a 5th oath to be an omni-protector.  So... what theories do people have as to what the Windrunners' highest oath is?

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Well, I'm going to guess that the fifth oath is something Kaladin is going to swear in the next book. The fourth oath was pretty straightforwardly what he'd been struggling against for most of the last two books, so it's not a surprise, but how tough it's been for him means that we probably have missed the foreshadowing of the fifth oath. I think we HAD to have some foreshadowing of the fifth oath, because giving Kaladin a totally new thing to struggle against would feel weird if we haven't had inkings of it before.

It might be something to do with his new work helping people with their mental health. That got just a few chapters in this book - enough to show that it was important, but not enough to say that that storyline is complete.

Hmm.  think the fifth oath is going to be something about how you have to protect the whole person - mind, body, and spirit. Most of the protecting that Kaladin has done personally has been about preventing people from being stabbed - understandable, because they're in a war. But more abstract things like protecting a person's independence, protecting their spirit, are still there.

Maybe it'll build on the fourth oath. The fourth oath was only about acceptance, knowing that a Windrunner can't protect everyone. But the fifth might be when he recognizes that some things are more important to protect against than bodily harm. I still think there's more realizations to be had there. Yeah, Kaladin is now accepting that sometimes, he'll fail and not protect someone. But there's a step further - times when Kaladin could step in and protect someone from physical damage, but shouldn't, because protecting that person's autonomy or integrity or honor or something else is also important.

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I'm also thinking that the fifth ideal could be related the the fourth ideal.

Similar to how the 2nd and 3rd ideal are both affirmative statements to protecting. the Fourth and Fifth ideal might both be statements towards not protecting.

It quite devastating to think about, but the fifth ideal might be along the lines of self-sacrifice in order to protect. This is something that Kaladin has always done, but I think it now has particular meaning given that he has started to actually learn to love himself. There is honor in sacrifice. A parallel would be how the US military awards the Medal of Honor.

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Odium/Toadium- I win this contest of champions!!!! 

Dalinar- NOOOO!!!!

A blazing white figure fell down from darkest skies, like a falling star, like the heralds from Tranquiline halls. A brilliant Shardspear gleamed brighter than the sun, brighter than the day ever saw and his body scintillated with hundred thousand pinpricks of light, like stars illuminating the blackest night. His eyes smoldered as the birth and death of star, brighter and brighter until pure white energy wafted over his skin- Almighty's true essence. 

And when he spoke, it wasn't Stormlight that puffed from his lips. 

Kaladin (giving some signature pose) - I.....AM.....HONOR!

The Stormfather grumbled in surprise- Oh, damn....I have been missing that all along! 

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I think it'll ultimately be some sort of redemption angle - in the context of protecting, perhaps:

"I will protect people from themselves."

I'm thinking about Ishar, the mental ward patients - also, Moash. This is arguably covered under 'those who cannot protect themselves', but I think there might be enough of a subtle difference in what the emphasis is to maybe make sense.

Alternatively, it might be something like 'I will protect the identities of individuals' or something like that (no LifeLock jokes); something related to recovering Ishar's, deadeyes', and his patients' selves.

Edit: If Kaladin could recover Ishar's madness somehow...it occurs me that the Fused are suffering from virtually the same ailment. Perhaps that's how the war ends.

Edited by Seloun
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I will yield to the need to sacrifice one to save the many, if I am out of options.

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5 hours ago, ftl said:

The fourth oath was pretty straightforwardly what he'd been struggling against for most of the last two books, so it's not a surprise, but how tough it's been for him means that we probably have missed the foreshadowing of the fifth oath. I think we HAD to have some foreshadowing of the fifth oath, because giving Kaladin a totally new thing to struggle against would feel weird if we haven't had inkings of it before.

Yeah, that's kind of why I posted this.  #4 has been such a big struggle for him, but now he's made it.  He's got his armor, he's got (apparently) all his Surges, and he's even fixed his self-image enough that it made it possible for his slave brand scars to heal.  He kind of feels complete at this point, and I'm sorta wondering what it is that can be next for him.  Like, what have I missed?

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The Windunner ideals seem to be progessing from more external to internal, i.e. from protecting others, to more internal epiphanies related to that first oath.

My guess is that the Fifth will be something along the lines of a mirror of the First. Perhaps "I acknowledge that others can protect me, and I am worth protecting."

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7 hours ago, Nef said:

It quite devastating to think about, but the fifth ideal might be along the lines of self-sacrifice in order to protect. This is something that Kaladin has always done, but I think it now has particular meaning given that he has started to actually learn to love himself. There is honor in sacrifice. A parallel would be how the US military awards the Medal of Honor.

I'd go for the opposite : better not to die today, to protect tomorrow. A dead soldier won't protect anyone anymore. Even if it is excruciating to have to stop saving some people to save your life. I mean, 3d and 4th windrunners oaths have to do with the difficulty to reconcile your instincts/intuition and the need to protect.

But granted, it might be to close to the 4th.

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2 hours ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Yeah, that's kind of why I posted this.  #4 has been such a big struggle for him, but now he's made it.  He's got his armor, he's got (apparently) all his Surges, and he's even fixed his self-image enough that it made it possible for his slave brand scars to heal.  He kind of feels complete at this point, and I'm sorta wondering what it is that can be next for him.  Like, what have I missed?

There's always more. We are forgetting his ruthless edge that crept out after Teft died. We don't know what Odium did to him at that moment, and Kaladin clearly mentions that while he is not shameful of his failures...he hasn't forgotten them completely. I think he's the only character whom Wit has met and told three stories so far so there's definitely Wit's fascination. 

So far, we never even saw how Kaladin works on diagnosing mental illness in accordance to his own self and there's whole Sylphrena's darkness pending. We also have whole 'Son/Child of Tanavast' thing that is clearly intentional. We have Kaladin to figure his new direction because clearly he can't always end up without jumping out of war. We have the Champion thing which isn't cleared and IIRC, Sanderson would come up with another crazy plot that'd blow our mind. 

Ex. Were any of us expecting him to become a therapist in this book and start helping people? 

We have his spidery senses that alert him in a special kind of way. He's even a great spy without Lightweaving as shown when he snuck around a Tower full of Fused. The Honorspren thing has yet to be solved so well, while Kaladin might not get that amount of screentime like RoW in Book 5, Sanderson's not gonna let him become Adolin of all books. 

 

 

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Here's my guess at Kaladin's Fifth Ideal:

"I will accept that others can protect themselves."

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I’ve been thinking about protecting and what that means, and long had an idea that one of the oaths, as mentioned above would be related to independence. More specifically, I’ve been thinking something along the lines that he must let people make their own decisions, even it puts them in danger.

When we think of protection, there’s a very easy path to lead to overprotection. A father who doesn’t let his daughter go out on dates, or laws that take away freedoms in the name of the protecting the many (not commenting on anything in particular here, as I’d prefer this not get into a political debate). 

I think we’ve seen Kaladin tend to the overprotection. Even in his vision/bond scene with Tien, Kaladin reprimands his brother for deciding to go with the other boys when he knew they would be in significant danger. This to me, is the final piece, that he must allow others to make decisions to protect, even if it puts them in danger. 

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The allowing other people to protect themselves line of thought makes sense to me - that, or recognising that there are things that matter more than physical safety, e.g. personal autonomy, dignity. I would file that as the same cluster. That being said, it seems to harmonise a lot with the Fourth to me - it's another reason that the Windrunner can't always protect.

But the Windrunners are associated with Jezrien, and the divine attributes of protection and leadership, and I wonder if the Fifth Ideal could be in the department of leadership instead: something about empowering others to protect themselves/other people. This would still harmonise with the idea he has to let people make their own choices to confront danger to protect others too, I would think.

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I have always thought that one of their oaths would be something like "I can not kill to protect".

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My thoughts being Kal has solved some of his issues with others not being saved and letting them make their own choices in this book, but he's still phenomenally bad at self-care 

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6 hours ago, TheOneKEA said:

Here's my guess at Kaladin's Fifth Ideal:

"I will accept that others can protect themselves."

 

5 hours ago, Jaconis said:

I think we’ve seen Kaladin tend to the overprotection. Even in his vision/bond scene with Tien, Kaladin reprimands his brother for deciding to go with the other boys when he knew they would be in significant danger. This to me, is the final piece, that he must allow others to make decisions to protect, even if it puts them in danger. 

I like both of these, I think it's the logical step, sort of like a father protecting his kids - he protects, then he has to learn he can't protect them from everything, then he should teach them or let them protect themselves.

 

 

5 hours ago, Kasimir said:

The Windrunners are associated with Jezrien, and the divine attributes of protection and leadership, and I wonder if the Fifth Ideal could be in the department of leadership instead: something about empowering others to protect themselves/other people. This would still harmonise with the idea he has to let people make their own choices to confront danger to protect others too, I would think.

Yes, and I also think Kaladin would be more satisfied by an Ideal that would let him be actively included, so something like "I will teach others/everyone who asks me/ to protect themselves"

This would also fit with the large numbers of squires that Windrunners have, the idea that they want to share their knowledge and empower others.

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13 hours ago, Seloun said:

"I will protect people from themselves."

 I really hope it isn't this.

I was honestly hoping that the fourth oath would be something along the lines of I will not deny the agency of others in an attempt to protect them, or I will accept that I cannot protect people from their own choices.  I don't know that I think that is what the fifth oath will be but I do hope it at least doesn't contradict it.  And maybe one of the other windrunners will have their fourth oath be more along the lines of respecting the freedom of others to make their own choices.

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11 minutes ago, TiaOmi said:

Yes, and I also think Kaladin would be more satisfied by an Ideal that would let him be actively included, so something like "I will teach others/everyone who asks me/ to protect themselves"

Oooh I would love if it were something like this.  And it does fit with my suspicions that the fifth oath will deal with leadership in some way.

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8 hours ago, Czernobog said:

The Windunner ideals seem to be progessing from more external to internal, i.e. from protecting others, to more internal epiphanies related to that first oath.

My guess is that the Fifth will be something along the lines of a mirror of the First. Perhaps "I acknowledge that others can protect me, and I am worth protecting."

I like this 

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8 hours ago, Czernobog said:

The Windunner ideals seem to be progessing from more external to internal, i.e. from protecting others, to more internal epiphanies related to that first oath.

My guess is that the Fifth will be something along the lines of a mirror of the First. Perhaps "I acknowledge that others can protect me, and I am worth protecting."

I think that this is my favorite possible Fifth I've seen so far.

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Following the skybreakers progression, in spoiler. 

Spoiler

 

2. Also called the Ideal of Justice, this is a specific oath to seek and administer justice

3. Also called the Ideal of Dedication, this is a specific oath to dedicate oneself to a greater truth, either a code or, sometimes, a person

4. This Ideal is also called the Ideal of Crusade, and requires that a Skybreaker undertake a personal quest and complete it to the satisfaction of their highsprhighspren. 

5. Called the Ideal of Law, this Ideal requires the Skybreaker to swear an oath that they will become a personification of law and truth.

 

2 the foundation of justice is the law.

3 there is justice outside the law.

4 not all law is just (in Szeth's case at least, killing of the ruling class has to be illegal locally)  or there is injustices that the law cannot reach.

5 I am the law.

There is a great deal of personal touch to the interpretation of the ideals, according the the coppermind a skybreaker at lvl 5 could either ignore the law as written or have to follow every law that had been written and arguably they could be the ones to decide which law is just.

The initial reaction is that the oaths progress by reinforcing the primary and secondary attributes Just/Confident and that ones perception is the deciding factor in determining which. 

 

The way I see it there's three important points to the fifth oath for Kaladin, his path to where he is now and the duality of perception of his attributes, and the general trend of the oaths thus far. Offhand the longest running problem for Kaladin has been to kill or not to kill. 

Kaladins progression of oaths has thus far been. "I will protect. I will protect when even when I don't want to. Sometimes I can't protect when I want to. " The most natural to follow that would be "sometimes i shouldn't protect" 

So the fifth oath should satisfy the question if it is right to kill in order to protect, the " i will not protect" symmetry as well as the duality of protecting/ leading. 

The only thing I can think of is " I will protect/respect/enable the choice of others" or " I will protect those who (desirable trait/action/allegiance)" 

The specific wording should be about just as much protecting as leading but is past midnight here so I will leave that for another day.

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8 minutes ago, Djerf said:

Following the skybreakers progression, in spoiler. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

2. Also called the Ideal of Justice, this is a specific oath to seek and administer justice

3. Also called the Ideal of Dedication, this is a specific oath to dedicate oneself to a greater truth, either a code or, sometimes, a person

4. This Ideal is also called the Ideal of Crusade, and requires that a Skybreaker undertake a personal quest and complete it to the satisfaction of their highsprhighspren. 

5. Called the Ideal of Law, this Ideal requires the Skybreaker to swear an oath that they will become a personification of law and truth.

 

2 the foundation of justice is the law.

3 there is justice outside the law.

4 not all law is just (in Szeth's case at least, killing of the ruling class has to be illegal locally)  or there is injustices that the law cannot reach.

5 I am the law.

There is a great deal of personal touch to the interpretation of the ideals, according the the coppermind a skybreaker at lvl 5 could either ignore the law as written or have to follow every law that had been written and arguably they could be the ones to decide which law is just.

The initial reaction is that the oaths progress by reinforcing the primary and secondary attributes Just/Confident and that ones perception is the deciding factor in determining which. 

 

The way I see it there's three important points to the fifth oath for Kaladin, his path to where he is now and the duality of perception of his attributes, and the general trend of the oaths thus far. Offhand the longest running problem for Kaladin has been to kill or not to kill. 

Kaladins progression of oaths has thus far been. "I will protect. I will protect when even when I don't want to. Sometimes I can't protect when I want to. " The most natural to follow that would be "sometimes i shouldn't protect" 

So the fifth oath should satisfy the question if it is right to kill in order to protect, the " i will not protect" symmetry as well as the duality of protecting/ leading. 

The only thing I can think of is " I will protect/respect/enable the choice of others" or " I will protect those who (desirable trait/action/allegiance)" 

The specific wording should be about just as much protecting as leading but is past midnight here so I will leave that for another day.

This also makes sense, logically approached

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“I understand that I SHOULD NOT always protect, even when I can/have the power to do so.”

Or

”I recognize that others have the right to refuse protection and I cannot force it on them.”

Or

”My right to protect is determined by the choice of the individual.”

And so on. 

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