Moash Blidness [Question]

[broccoli]

So, seems like Moash is now blind:

"But he couldn't see them. No matter how much Stormlight he was given, his eyes didn't recover. He was blind"

Why do you think this happened?

Edited November 20, 2020 by broccoli

[bmcclure7]

Something with the sibling or possibly some change in the way he sees himself on a spiritual level.

[Subvisual Haze]

I think there's a parallel with how Dalinar saw Odium during their negotiation vision.

Quote

The god's eyes had gone completely golden, as if they were chunks of metal set into a statue's face"

We know the power of the tower disrupted Moash's connection to Odium (which is why feelings came back).  I think without that link to shield him, Moash somehow pushed too much power through his honorblade and permanently wounded/changed himself in the process.

[Leuthie]

I don't think it's about pushing too much power through anything. If there is a Connection made between a large "power" (Odium, in this case) and a smaller "power" (Moash), the smaller power becomes dependent upon the larger. When the larger is ripped away, the smaller loses whatever that power was Connected to. In the case of the Singers when BAM was ripped away, they lost their ability to Connect to Roshar, making them parshmen. In this case, Moash lost his ability to see. Odium was probably using Moash's eyes when the tower was turned back on, ripping Odium's Connection away and leaving a damaged area in the Spirit web where the ability to see was once attached.

At least, that's how I see it.

[Subvisual Haze]

Brandon's made offhanded comments to the light consumption of Honorblades being "dangerous" but we haven't seen any indication of how that's the case.  I'm imagining Moash was experiencing something similar to what happens to non-Radiant soulcasters.

[DracostarA]

1 hour ago, broccoli said:

"But he couldn't see them. No matter how much Stormlight he was given, his eyes didn't recover. He was blind"

I think they specified it was to do with Navani and her Light.

Quote

The suffocating light surrounded him, burned him as he burst out the front gates of the tower.

Sanderson, Brandon. Rhythm of War (STORMLIGHT ARCHIVE) . Orion. Kindle Edition. 

Quote

He couldn’t blink. He didn’t seem to have eyelids anymore. He couldn’t see either—his vision had been burned away.

I'm pretty sure this is why Vyre was blinded.

[Nymeros]

I wonder why that was done.....seems a useless addition to the story.

[ftl]

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

I wonder why that was done.....seems a useless addition to the story.

It's definitely setup for something in book 5. I couldn't tell you what, though.

[Halyo_Alex]

He literally can no longer see his own path forward. He is forced to rely on others to guide him.

[Friendshipspren]

6 hours ago, Nymeros said:

I wonder why that was done.....seems a useless addition to the story.

I think it's a way for him to punish himself. When Odium's connection was removed , he felt guilt and pain at killing Teft. 

He tried to flee back to Odium's emotional void as soon as possible even tho he was blinded . 

If could be that in his heart of hearts he thought he should suffer for being so blind as to kill his old friend and therefore changed his own spiritual ideal to be blind . 

How much of this was consious or subconscious  , I can't tell. 

[Starla]

This detail is so strange to me. It appears to have happened as he exited the tower. Perhaps it was caused by towerlight, but why would that burn his eyelids? Is the rest of him burned or only his eyes? I'm leaning towards it being something internal/cognitive, rather than external/physical.

Or how about this crackpot idea: I wonder how the timeline of this lines up with Taravangian killing Rayse (it is the same day). Perhaps Moash was connected to Rayse in a way that caused him to be affected by the death. Connection is a big theme in this book and Moash/Vyre seemed to be uniquely Connected to Odium. Even the Fused were confused by his place among them.

[Doomdrinker]

9 hours ago, Nymeros said:

I wonder why that was done.....seems a useless addition to the story.

I see it as the reason odium lost his champion, just before rayse dies he mentions how he "has lost his champion, again" assuming moash was gonna be odiums champion now he's blind odium would need to pick someone else

[Gaotona]

2 hours ago, Doomdrinker said:

I see it as the reason odium lost his champion, just before rayse dies he mentions how he "has lost his champion, again" assuming moash was gonna be odiums champion now he's blind odium would need to pick someone else

I read that as him loosing the possibility of Kaladin as his champion. I think Moash was mostly meant as a tool to get Kaladin.

The only explanation for his blindness I could think of, was that his spiritual ideal was changed significantly enough to prevent stormlight from healing him. No idea if the reason for that is magical or psychological, but both would be possible I think.

[Friendshipspren]

2 hours ago, Doomdrinker said:

I see it as the reason odium lost his champion, just before rayse dies he mentions how he "has lost his champion, again" assuming moash was gonna be odiums champion now he's blind odium would need to pick someone else

Taravangian mentions it was stormblessed who was supposed to be the Champion afterwards . 

[+robardin]

The simplest explanation as to why Stormlight healing isn't healing Moash's blindness is the same one as why Kaladin carried those slave brands for so long: he feels he deserves it, at a spiritual/cognitive level. Simplest in that we've seen this mechanism at work already in SA.

The next simplest one would be that it has to do with the new (to him) kind of Light that Navani fried him with in the face. Towerlight. Maybe Stormlight doesn't heal Towerlight burn.

For example, wasn't it said somewhere, like from a Szeth POV when he was the Assassin in White, that Jezrien's Honorblade wouldn't allow him to heal from Shardblade severing with Stormlight the way that a Nahel bond allowed Second Ideal Kaladin to do, or even new Windrunner squires to do, like Bisig and Hobber? So maybe it's something like that. It's a kind of damage beyond the Physical level that Moash can't heal from with the Honorblade, but perhaps a Fused or Radiant could.

[Lightspine]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

The simplest explanation as to why Stormlight healing isn't healing Moash's blindness is the same one as why Kaladin carried those slave brands for so long: he feels he deserves it, at a spiritual/cognitive level. Simplest in that we've seen this mechanism at work already in SA.

The next simplest one would be that it has to do with the new (to him) kind of Light that Navani fried him with in the face. Towerlight. Maybe Stormlight doesn't heal Towerlight burn.

For example, wasn't it said somewhere, like from a Szeth POV when he was the Assassin in White, that Jezrien's Honorblade wouldn't allow him to heal from Shardblade severing with Stormlight the way that a Nahel bond allowed Second Ideal Kaladin to do, or even new Windrunner squires to do, like Bisig and Hobber? So maybe it's something like that. It's a kind of damage beyond the Physical level that Moash can't heal from with the Honorblade, but perhaps a Fused or Radiant could.

I agree with the first half of what you said completely.

However, it is shown in Szeth's duel with Kaladin at the end of WoR that he can heal from Shardblade injuries. It appears to have been a misconception of his since it is more difficult than for a Radiant. So, I think the spiritual/cognitive explanation is by far the best.

In addition, eyes have a very large symbolic or thematic role on Roshar. When someone dies by a Shardblade, their eyes burn out. Dead spren have their eyes scratched out. Radiants and Voidbringers (Singers with forms of power, to be specific) undergo changes in eye color. Not to mention the whole lighteyes/darkeyes division which probably stems from the Radiants. Moash losing his eyes is a parallel of either someone who has been killed by a shardblade (since the quote is "his vision had been burned away" it matches pretty well) or deadeyed spren.

Even though the description of vision "burned away" matches shardblade deaths better, I find the deadeye connection to be more meaningful here. It's as if part of Moash's soul has been ripped away. Is it possible that, when the Towerlight severed his Connection with Odium, this worked a little like the breaking of a Nahel bond? Did it damage Moash's spiritweb in the same manner as the breaking of oaths damaged spren?

[Hayama]

I really like the idea that it was Navani's flooding of Light that permanently crippled him. He killed her son, and I really just wanted her to have destroyed him outright. Still, that moment was so triumphant to me. I yelled "HA" out loud, scaring the crap out of my cats.

[teknopathetic]

We all hate him so much (and not just because of what he has done, but because he is boring). Why is he still in the story? Is he Odium's champion? Does he do something? Why couldn't Navani have killed him And now he is blind? This better not be a Spook thing AND HE BETTER NOT HAVE WAR LIGHT POWERS due to exposure. 

Edited November 23, 2020 by teknopathetic

[Subvisual Haze]

I hope he puts on a black headband and wears flowing desert robes and becomes a mad prophet of regret.  His physical eyes have been blinded, but his third eye is finally opened.

[Nymeros]

On 11/22/2020 at 5:17 AM, Dreamspren said:

I think it's a way for him to punish himself.

I think thats too deep for the way Vyre was portrayed in the book and ultimately, its pointless. Vyre was just a murder machine with no personality but sadism. His being blind affects didly squat especially since he has no story. Anyone can weild that honorblade. What, he wont be able to carry stones anymore? Big whoop.

[Subvisual Haze]

"I wish for blind person representation in the Stormlight Archive" said the fan holding the monkey's paw

[Mr Maker]

Moash Deadeye ;-)

[Autobrecciation]

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I hope he puts on a black headband and wears flowing desert robes and becomes a mad prophet of regret.  His physical eyes have been blinded, but his third eye is finally opened.

Dune:

Spoiler

"You fool yourselves with images you cannot possibly understand. You cripple yourselves with these toads of ritual and ceremony!"

I don't know what will happen in the future, but I think Moash/Vyre follows the Saul/Paul archetype story arc. I'm not sure if we've seen his lowest, most vile point, but I'm still on the future redemption arc team. I mean at this point I absolutely hate him, but if there is anything people like, its redemption.

MIght end up more like Smeagol though.

Quote

“Then what does anger you? What is your passionate fury, Moash, the man with an ancient singer’s name?”

“Vengeance,” he whispered.

“Yes, I understand.” Lady Leshwi looked at him, smiling in what seemed to him a distinctly sinister way. “Do you know why we fight? Let me tell you. . . .”

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Autobrecciation