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Navani: where does she go from here?


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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

But if they could have pushed the fused out, why did the plan come up twice where Kaladin states the best they can do is evacuate as many people as they can?

Kaldin knowing something is possible and planning to evacuate is different from it actually being possible. At the point of his plan he thought it would be him teft and lift, not them, plus the human resistance, plus heavenly ones and listeners. 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Raboniel says she had been listening in on the Sibling since they entered the tower, and that the Sibing is naïve which is why it didn't realize it could be listened in on. Navani did not speak out loud the location. The Sibling told her the location, and then freaked out because they had found it. Before Navani could have even told Kaladin. So the "wire tap" as it were was at the Sibling, not Navani's speech. 

 

Ill need to double check I thought she had repeated this, but it does seem like she was listening to both sides of the conversation in either case.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Rlain was being discussed when the Sibling said it doesn't matter whether they bond a bondsmith or not, because it cannot make light. Navani was the one that figured out how to. If it was a simple matter for Rlain to do so, then a large chunk of the book would have had no reason to happen. The bond with Rlain would not have fixed anything, from the SIbling's own "mouth". 

Which navani did by humming honors tune, something she picked up from a fussed. Rlaine would also be capable of singing this tune, likely more so. 

 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

 

So as you can see, they were discussing Rlain. Even if the Sibling bonded with him, it would change nothing. The Sibling and by proxy Rlain would be unable to create light, and thereby activate the defenses. 

The sibling also did not think bonding navani would fix it. So i disagree on this point, rlain would need to do some work here, but it was well within his abilities to do what navani had done.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I guess at this point I am confused, because you stated in a prior post that had Navani done nothing, Kaladin could have saved the tower. I am in no way shape or form diminishing Kaladins considerable accomplishments, but at the end of the day they were only a stop gap. The oathgates brought in reinforcements, and would have continued to do so. That is why the fight over the radiant's felt helpless. It was supposed to be a quick smash and grab to get out of there. The whole thing would have failed, and Kaladin and co would have needed to flee (which was the original plan. Grab everyone they could and get out of dodge). Based on the information provided in the book, I see no way that Kaladin regardless how many people he rallies, of being able to retake Urithiru, push the enemy out, and hold the tower. It is stated repeatedly till the defenses are switched back to against the fused, the tower is enemy's. 

Yes the tower still needs to be cleaned, and after pushing the enemy out, they would the time and the collective minds of all the people singers and allied fused to work on remaking the sibling. Did navani make this step unnecissary, yes, but that doesnt mean it couldnt have been done, nor does her saving the sibling make her the saviour of the tower. She played a part, and a required part, but that doesnt mean she saved it. 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

As I said given the heated nature of the earlier discourse, I am not touching with a ten foot poll as to whether Navani achieved anything, or caused things to go worse with her research. All I was commenting on was the suggestion that had Navani done nothing, Kaladin would have found a way to save the tower. Which from everything we are given to see in the novel to me is impossible. 

Perhaps pulling one part out from a story does make it all fall to pieces. 

Throught the discourse i feel the forrest was lost for the trees. My original point was that i feel navani made mistakes and that her journey forward should include making amends for these mistakes (not extreme or even necissarialy legal). This broke down into if her results justified her actions, which i dont think they do, nor do i think the results that have been attributed to her are fairly hers. I dont think navani is a bad person, nor that she is unredeemable, just that she made the wrong decisions and there a consequences from said decision, just as with everyone else.

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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

But if they could have pushed the fused out, why did the plan come up twice where Kaladin states the best they can do is evacuate as many people as they can?

Kaldin knowing something is possible and planning to evacuate is different from it actually being possible. At the point of his plan he thought it would be him teft and lift, not them, plus the human resistance, plus heavenly ones and listeners. 

Quote

Raboniel says she had been listening in on the Sibling since they entered the tower, and that the Sibing is naïve which is why it didn't realize it could be listened in on. Navani did not speak out loud the location. The Sibling told her the location, and then freaked out because they had found it. Before Navani could have even told Kaladin. So the "wire tap" as it were was at the Sibling, not Navani's speech. 

 

Ill need to double check I thought she had repeated this, but it does seem like she was listening to both sides of the conversation in either case.

Quote

Rlain was being discussed when the Sibling said it doesn't matter whether they bond a bondsmith or not, because it cannot make light. Navani was the one that figured out how to. If it was a simple matter for Rlain to do so, then a large chunk of the book would have had no reason to happen. The bond with Rlain would not have fixed anything, from the SIbling's own "mouth". 

Which navani did by humming honors tune, something she picked up from a fussed. Rlaine would also be capable of singing this tune, likely more so. 

 

Quote

 

So as you can see, they were discussing Rlain. Even if the Sibling bonded with him, it would change nothing. The Sibling and by proxy Rlain would be unable to create light, and thereby activate the defenses. 

The sibling also did not think bonding navani would fix it. So i disagree on this point, rlain would need to do some work here, but it was well within his abilities to do what navani had done.

Quote

I guess at this point I am confused, because you stated in a prior post that had Navani done nothing, Kaladin could have saved the tower. I am in no way shape or form diminishing Kaladins considerable accomplishments, but at the end of the day they were only a stop gap. The oathgates brought in reinforcements, and would have continued to do so. That is why the fight over the radiant's felt helpless. It was supposed to be a quick smash and grab to get out of there. The whole thing would have failed, and Kaladin and co would have needed to flee (which was the original plan. Grab everyone they could and get out of dodge). Based on the information provided in the book, I see no way that Kaladin regardless how many people he rallies, of being able to retake Urithiru, push the enemy out, and hold the tower. It is stated repeatedly till the defenses are switched back to against the fused, the tower is enemy's. 

Yes the tower still needs to be cleaned, and after pushing the enemy out, they would the time and the collective minds of all the people singers and allied fused to work on remaking the sibling. Did navani make this step unnecissary, yes, but that doesnt mean it couldnt have been done, nor does her saving the sibling make her the saviour of the tower. She played a part, and a required part, but that doesnt mean she saved it. 

Quote

As I said given the heated nature of the earlier discourse, I am not touching with a ten foot poll as to whether Navani achieved anything, or caused things to go worse with her research. All I was commenting on was the suggestion that had Navani done nothing, Kaladin would have found a way to save the tower. Which from everything we are given to see in the novel to me is impossible. 

Perhaps pulling one part out from a story does make it all fall to pieces. 

Throught the discourse i feel the forrest was lost for the trees. My original point was that i feel navani made mistakes and that her journey forward should include making amends for these mistakes (not extreme or even necissarialy legal). This broke down into if her results justified her actions, which i dont think they do, nor do i think the results that have been attributed to her are fairly hers. I dont think navani is a bad person, nor that she is unredeemable, just that she made the wrong decisions and there a consequences from said decision, just as with everyone else.

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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

But if they could have pushed the fused out, why did the plan come up twice where Kaladin states the best they can do is evacuate as many people as they can?

Kaldin knowing something is possible and planning to evacuate is different from it actually being possible. At the point of his plan he thought it would be him teft and lift, not them, plus the human resistance, plus heavenly ones and listeners. 

Quote

Raboniel says she had been listening in on the Sibling since they entered the tower, and that the Sibing is naïve which is why it didn't realize it could be listened in on. Navani did not speak out loud the location. The Sibling told her the location, and then freaked out because they had found it. Before Navani could have even told Kaladin. So the "wire tap" as it were was at the Sibling, not Navani's speech. 

 

Ill need to double check I thought she had repeated this, but it does seem like she was listening to both sides of the conversation in either case.

Quote

Rlain was being discussed when the Sibling said it doesn't matter whether they bond a bondsmith or not, because it cannot make light. Navani was the one that figured out how to. If it was a simple matter for Rlain to do so, then a large chunk of the book would have had no reason to happen. The bond with Rlain would not have fixed anything, from the SIbling's own "mouth". 

Which navani did by humming honors tune, something she picked up from a fussed. Rlaine would also be capable of singing this tune, likely more so. 

 

Quote

 

So as you can see, they were discussing Rlain. Even if the Sibling bonded with him, it would change nothing. The Sibling and by proxy Rlain would be unable to create light, and thereby activate the defenses. 

The sibling also did not think bonding navani would fix it. So i disagree on this point, rlain would need to do some work here, but it was well within his abilities to do what navani had done.

Quote

I guess at this point I am confused, because you stated in a prior post that had Navani done nothing, Kaladin could have saved the tower. I am in no way shape or form diminishing Kaladins considerable accomplishments, but at the end of the day they were only a stop gap. The oathgates brought in reinforcements, and would have continued to do so. That is why the fight over the radiant's felt helpless. It was supposed to be a quick smash and grab to get out of there. The whole thing would have failed, and Kaladin and co would have needed to flee (which was the original plan. Grab everyone they could and get out of dodge). Based on the information provided in the book, I see no way that Kaladin regardless how many people he rallies, of being able to retake Urithiru, push the enemy out, and hold the tower. It is stated repeatedly till the defenses are switched back to against the fused, the tower is enemy's. 

Yes the tower still needs to be cleaned, and after pushing the enemy out, they would the time and the collective minds of all the people singers and allied fused to work on remaking the sibling. Did navani make this step unnecissary, yes, but that doesnt mean it couldnt have been done, nor does her saving the sibling make her the saviour of the tower. She played a part, and a required part, but that doesnt mean she saved it. 

Quote

As I said given the heated nature of the earlier discourse, I am not touching with a ten foot poll as to whether Navani achieved anything, or caused things to go worse with her research. All I was commenting on was the suggestion that had Navani done nothing, Kaladin would have found a way to save the tower. Which from everything we are given to see in the novel to me is impossible. 

Perhaps pulling one part out from a story does make it all fall to pieces. 

Throught the discourse i feel the forrest was lost for the trees. My original point was that i feel navani made mistakes and that her journey forward should include making amends for these mistakes (not extreme or even necissarialy legal). This broke down into if her results justified her actions, which i dont think they do, nor do i think the results that have been attributed to her are fairly hers. I dont think navani is a bad person, nor that she is unredeemable, just that she made the wrong decisions and there a consequences from said decision, just as with everyone else.

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1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

But if they could have pushed the fused out, why did the plan come up twice where Kaladin states the best they can do is evacuate as many people as they can?

Kaldin knowing something is possible and planning to evacuate is different from it actually being possible. At the point of his plan he thought it would be him teft and lift, not them, plus the human resistance, plus heavenly ones and listeners. 

Quote

Raboniel says she had been listening in on the Sibling since they entered the tower, and that the Sibing is naïve which is why it didn't realize it could be listened in on. Navani did not speak out loud the location. The Sibling told her the location, and then freaked out because they had found it. Before Navani could have even told Kaladin. So the "wire tap" as it were was at the Sibling, not Navani's speech. 

 

Ill need to double check I thought she had repeated this, but it does seem like she was listening to both sides of the conversation in either case.

Quote

Rlain was being discussed when the Sibling said it doesn't matter whether they bond a bondsmith or not, because it cannot make light. Navani was the one that figured out how to. If it was a simple matter for Rlain to do so, then a large chunk of the book would have had no reason to happen. The bond with Rlain would not have fixed anything, from the SIbling's own "mouth". 

Which navani did by humming honors tune, something she picked up from a fussed. Rlaine would also be capable of singing this tune, likely more so. 

 

Quote

 

So as you can see, they were discussing Rlain. Even if the Sibling bonded with him, it would change nothing. The Sibling and by proxy Rlain would be unable to create light, and thereby activate the defenses. 

The sibling also did not think bonding navani would fix it. So i disagree on this point, rlain would need to do some work here, but it was well within his abilities to do what navani had done.

Quote

I guess at this point I am confused, because you stated in a prior post that had Navani done nothing, Kaladin could have saved the tower. I am in no way shape or form diminishing Kaladins considerable accomplishments, but at the end of the day they were only a stop gap. The oathgates brought in reinforcements, and would have continued to do so. That is why the fight over the radiant's felt helpless. It was supposed to be a quick smash and grab to get out of there. The whole thing would have failed, and Kaladin and co would have needed to flee (which was the original plan. Grab everyone they could and get out of dodge). Based on the information provided in the book, I see no way that Kaladin regardless how many people he rallies, of being able to retake Urithiru, push the enemy out, and hold the tower. It is stated repeatedly till the defenses are switched back to against the fused, the tower is enemy's. 

Yes the tower still needs to be cleaned, and after pushing the enemy out, they would the time and the collective minds of all the people singers and allied fused to work on remaking the sibling. Did navani make this step unnecissary, yes, but that doesnt mean it couldnt have been done, nor does her saving the sibling make her the saviour of the tower. She played a part, and a required part, but that doesnt mean she saved it. 

Quote

As I said given the heated nature of the earlier discourse, I am not touching with a ten foot poll as to whether Navani achieved anything, or caused things to go worse with her research. All I was commenting on was the suggestion that had Navani done nothing, Kaladin would have found a way to save the tower. Which from everything we are given to see in the novel to me is impossible. 

Perhaps pulling one part out from a story does make it all fall to pieces. 

Throught the discourse i feel the forrest was lost for the trees. My original point was that i feel navani made mistakes and that her journey forward should include making amends for these mistakes (not extreme or even necissarialy legal). This broke down into if her results justified her actions, which i dont think they do, nor do i think the results that have been attributed to her are fairly hers. I dont think navani is a bad person, nor that she is unredeemable, just that she made the wrong decisions and there a consequences from said decision, just as with everyone else.

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49 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Kaldin knowing something is possible and planning to evacuate is different from it actually being possible. At the point of his plan he thought it would be him teft and lift, not them, plus the human resistance, plus heavenly ones and listeners. 

Still doesn't change as Kaladin said, due to the oathgate, the fused will continue to get reinforcements. It is a losing option. Even when the heavenly ones switch sides, they still speak of retreat. The human resistance lacked weapons for the most part, and the training to use them. The only thing that turned the tide in regards to retaking the Tower was the restoration of the Sibling. 

Quote

Ill need to double check I thought she had repeated this, but it does seem like she was listening to both sides of the conversation in either case.

No problem, feel free, though I had added the quote to my post. Feel free to review. 

edit: Though I feel the need to point out it does not matter if it is just the sibing or both, because the sibling is the one that stated where the nodes were. So if it is both the Sibling and Navani that Raboniel heard, then she would still hear about the node even if the convo was just to Kaladin without her being able to hear his response. The information would still have reached her. 

Quote

Which navani did by humming honors tune, something she picked up from a fussed. Rlaine would also be capable of singing this tune, likely more so. 

It was not just singing Honor's tune. It was because Navani found how to combine them harmoniously. We were shown over the course of the book how hard it is to find ancient rhythms by the listeners themselves, and that was regarding their own scholars. Rlain is not a scholar. He is a spy, by his own words. Raboniel and her scholars were unable to figure it out. So again, from everything we have seen in the book, it is not possible to just push Rlain up to the gemstone pillar, him magically figure out the tunes, bond and restore the Sibling. Not to mention understand the complicated fabrials throughout the tower that were needed to vent the voidlight to heal the corruption. You can feel free to argue the afterwards, as to whether Rlain now being taught the new rhythm could bond the sibling or not, but not the during. I would disagree with you regarding the afterwards, but we are discussing the during. It had to be Navani plain and simple

 

Rhythm of war page 734

(We see even raboniel admit she does not know what is wrong with the sibling nor how to combine lights)

 

“Ah,” Raboniel said, “but this isn’t the third Light. We call that Lifelight. Cultivation’s power, distilled. This is something different. Something unique. It is the reason I came to this tower. It is a mixing of two. Stormlight and Lifelight. Like…”

“Like the Sibling is a child of both Honor and Cultivation,” Navani said.

Storms. That was what the Sibling had meant by their Light no longer working. They hadn’t been able to make the tower function any longer because something had happened to the tower’s Light.

“It came out in barely a trickle,” Raboniel said. “Something is wrong with the tower, preventing it from flowing.” Her rhythm grew more energetic. “But this is proof. I have long suspected that there must be a way to mix and change the various forms of Light. These three energies are the means by which all Surges work, and yet we know so little about them."

Quote

The sibling also did not think bonding navani would fix it. So i disagree on this point, rlain would need to do some work here, but it was well within his abilities to do what navani had done.

No it was not within his abilities, as I have explained above. It is not simply singing a tune. Most of Navani's research was learning how to harmonize them. Which Raboniel, a fused connected to the original rhythms of Roshar and centuries old, could not figure out. Nor could a random spy. 

Quote

Yes the tower still needs to be cleaned, and after pushing the enemy out, they would the time and the collective minds of all the people singers and allied fused to work on remaking the sibling. Did navani make this step unnecissary, yes, but that doesnt mean it couldnt have been done, nor does her saving the sibling make her the saviour of the tower. She played a part, and a required part, but that doesnt mean she saved it. 

Navani was the only one to figure out how to harmonize the rhythms. And again, there isn't pushing the enemy out. The radiants present were depowered. The heavenly ones were out numbered, and the humans were non powered. They were fighting knowing reinforcements were incoming and that the battle was doomed unless they escaped. I will pull up that quote. 

 

Rhythm of War page 1164 (at this point they were losing. Kaladin flies in having gotten his plate, but it is the tower awakening and depowering the fused that resulted in them winning)(spoilered for length)

Spoiler

 

Adin raised the spear he’d found in the atrium. People were crying, surrounded by fearspren, as the group of beleaguered humans and singers together made a circle around their wounded. They pushed the elderly and the children to the center, but Adin didn’t go with those. The spren watching would see that he wasn’t the type to hide. Even women had picked up weapons, including the surgeon’s wife, who had given her son to one of the young girls at the center to hold. War was a masculine art, but when you started attacking women, you’d stopped engaging in war. You deserved anything that happened to you after that point. Adin’s father was among the wounded. Alive, bless the Heralds, but bleeding badly.

He’d fought for the Radiants, when Adin … Adin had hidden in the hallway. Storm him, he wasn’t going to be a coward again. He … he wasn’t. Adin fell into line beside a fearsome parshman in incredible carapace armor, then tried to position himself with his spear out, in that parshman’s same posture. The stormforms marched in, singing a terrible song. Adin found himself trembling, his hands slick on his spear. Oh, storms. In that moment, he didn’t want to earn a spren. He didn’t want to fight. He wanted to be home making plates, listening to his father hum. He didn’t want to be standing here, knowing that they were all … all going to … A hand took Adin by the shoulder and moved him backward. Not all the way back, but enough for the figure to stand in front of him. It was the quiet bridgeman, Dabbid. Adin didn’t complain, not after seeing those stormforms. Felt good to have someone in front of him, though the bridgeman’s spear shook. He was acting afraid to fool the enemy, right?

The stormforms didn’t release lightning, which was good. The others had thought they might not, because of the marketplace. Their powers were too wild. Regardless, there seemed to be … be hundreds of them. A call came from somewhere behind, and they came charging in—rippling with red lightning that flashed when they touched something. In seconds, everything was chaos. Adin screamed, squeezing his eyes shut, holding out his spear and shaking. No, he had to fight. He had to— Something knocked into him from behind, throwing him forward. The strike dazed him, and he lost his spear. When he rolled over, a Voidbringer with red eyes stood above him.

The creature casually speared downward. Adin didn’t even have time to scream before— Clink. Clink? The stormform cocked his head, humming an odd song. He stabbed at Adin’s chest, but the spear stopped short again. Adin looked at his body as he lay prone on the floor. His torso was surrounded by glittering blue armor. He raised his hands, and found them covered in gauntlets. He was in Shardplate. He was in SHARDPLATE. “Ha!” he shouted, and kicked at the stormform. The creature went flying, soaring twenty feet and slamming into a wall. Adin had barely felt any resistance. It was like he’d always imagined. It … The Shardplate vanished off him and turned into a group of windspren, which soared over to Dabbid, who was about to take an axe to the head. Clink. Both combatants—the human now shrouded in Shardplate, and the enemy who had hit him—froze in place, stunned.

The enemy backed away, and the Plate flew off again, this time surrounding the lead Heavenly One. She’d been spearing at a stormform who released a flash of lightning that enveloped her. When Adin’s eyes cleared, he saw her floating in Shardplate, staring at her hands in obvious wonder. Confused, the stormforms began calling out, disengaging and re-forming into ranks. The armor burst apart, forming those strange windspren who flew into the air overhead before latching on to a figure hovering above the buildings. The Plate had fit everyone, but him it matched. A brilliant Knight Radiant in glowing armor, holding aloft an intricate Shardspear. He left the helmet off so they could all see. Kaladin Stormblessed, bright as the sun.

“I bring word from the Sibling!” he shouted. “They don’t remember inviting you in. And considering that they aren’t merely the master of this house, they literally are this house, your actions are quite the insult.” Brilliant lights suddenly began running up the walls, making the very core of the stones glow as if molten in the center. Similar lights burst to life in the ceiling. The ground trembled, as if the entire mountain were shaking. Clanking sounds rang in the hallways, like distant machines, and wind began to blow in the vast chamber—which now was as bright as day. Most amazing, the lightning on the stormforms went out. Deepest Ones, who had been clawing out of the ground and grabbing at the feet of soldiers, began screaming and going limp, trapped in the stone.

The Heavenly Ones who had been helping dropped to the ground suddenly, then collapsed, unconscious. Groans sounded from behind. The Radiants on the floor at the center of the circle began stirring. They were awake! “You may turn in your weapons,” Stormblessed said to the enemy. “And return to your kind unharmed, so long as you promise me one thing.” He smiled. “Tell him that I’m particularly going to enjoy hearing what he looked like when he found out what happened here today.”

 

 

Quote

Throught the discourse i feel the forrest was lost for the trees. My original point was that i feel navani made mistakes and that her journey forward should include making amends for these mistakes (not extreme or even necissarialy legal). This broke down into if her results justified her actions, which i dont think they do, nor do i think the results that have been attributed to her are fairly hers. I dont think navani is a bad person, nor that she is unredeemable, just that she made the wrong decisions and there a consequences from said decision, just as with everyone else.

And again, that is not what I am discussing. Feel free to continue to do so with Karger. I see no productive end result to continuing that line of discourse with you. You can dislike Navani and her actions however you wish, for whatever reason you wish. I am only saying that if she did nothing, the tower would not be restored, the fused would still be occupying Urithiru, and Kaladin and co would have had to flee. I am not trying to justify anything. Just commenting on the mechanics. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Still doesn't change as Kaladin said, due to the oathgate, the fused will continue to get reinforcements. It is a losing option. Even when the heavenly ones switch sides, they still speak of retreat. The human resistance lacked weapons for the most part, and the training to use them. The only thing that turned the tide in regards to retaking the Tower was the restoration of the Sibling. 

I disagree, It certainly made the fight easier and far less bloody but I still disagree it makes the fight back impossible, or even improbable, given kaladin and the heavenly ones.

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

No problem, feel free, though I had added the quote to my post. Feel free to review. 

edit: Though I feel the need to point out it does not matter if it is just the sibing or both, because the sibling is the one that stated where the nodes were. So if it is both the Sibling and Navani that Raboniel heard, then she would still hear about the node even if the convo was just to Kaladin without her being able to hear his response. The information would still have reached her. 

I agree, I thought I had said this. But for the sake of clarity I misremembered navani speaking this out loud.

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

It was not just singing Honor's tune. It was because Navani found how to combine them harmoniously. We were shown over the course of the book how hard it is to find ancient rhythms by the listeners themselves, and that was regarding their own scholars. Rlain is not a scholar. He is a spy, by his own words. Raboniel and her scholars were unable to figure it out. So again, from everything we have seen in the book, it is not possible to just push Rlain up to the gemstone pillar, him magically figure out the tunes, bond and restore the Sibling. Not to mention understand the complicated fabrials throughout the tower that were needed to vent the voidlight to heal the corruption. You can feel free to argue the afterwards, as to whether Rlain now being taught the new rhythm could bond the sibling or not, but not the during. I would disagree with you regarding the afterwards, but we are discussing the during. It had to be Navani plain and simple

No it wasnt just Honors tune, it was the harmonised tune. Which Navani learned to do by both her and Raboniel starting at the two pure tones and both harmonising.

I do not see how Rlain could not harmonise with the sibling, especially given the sibling knows the harmony tune from their end and Rlain has the musical ability inherent (or perhaps learned). Harmonising music is not a Navani exclusive ability, and singers have been stated throughout SA to be more in tune with the natural rhythms of Roshar. I do however think Navani is a better fit for the sibling.

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

No it was not within his abilities, as I have explained above. It is not simply singing a tune. Most of Navani's research was learning how to harmonize them. Which Raboniel, a fused connected to the original rhythms of Roshar and centuries old, could not figure out. Nor could a random spy. 

A singer has a greater ability with music, as is shown several times (they even talk to different rhythms). Navani is a greater scholar, I agree. It is not impossible nor unreasonable to assume that a singer would be able to harmonise with the sibling who was singing the already harmonied version of cultivationlight, than a human and fused both coming together with their respective un-harmonised tunes.

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Navani was the only one to figure out how to harmonize the rhythms. And again, there isn't pushing the enemy out. The radiants present were depowered. The heavenly ones were out numbered, and the humans were non powered. They were fighting knowing reinforcements were incoming and that the battle was doomed unless they escaped. I will pull up that quote. 

I touched on the harmonisation above. As to pushing enemies out, I dont think its likely and as you said the plans where the reasonable retreat. However its within the realm of posibilities.

But lets explore the difference between only Navani, vs only Kaladin.

No Kaladin means, the sibling is fully corrupted (first node) all the radiants in the tower likely die (no kaladin to distract moash, although he may not have shown up), victory is not even a faint possibility.

No Navani, Kaladin defends the first node, the second node is unlikely to be found, Kaladin doesnt get psuedo flight, but the rest of the resistance plays out much the same, maybe slightly more in team radiants favour. The final battle approaches, no sibling to back up, so Kaladin now has a much harder fight, but mixed with the heavenly ones is likely able to push the enemy back and either escape with most of their lives or possible push them out and either deactivating the oathgates, or killing moash at taking the honorblade. Their chance of success is slim yes, but given the heavenly ones, additional signers and human resistance there is a chance they can push the enemy out and hold the tower, giving time for the scholars/heavenly ones/singers to workout how to help the sibling.

 

When we break it down like this it is clear that while Navani was integral, and saved significant bloodshed, it was Kaladin who saved the tower and its people.

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Rhythm of War page 1164 (at this point they were losing. Kaladin flies in having gotten his plate, but it is the tower awakening and depowering the fused that resulted in them winning)(spoilered for length)

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Adin raised the spear he’d found in the atrium. People were crying, surrounded by fearspren, as the group of beleaguered humans and singers together made a circle around their wounded. They pushed the elderly and the children to the center, but Adin didn’t go with those. The spren watching would see that he wasn’t the type to hide. Even women had picked up weapons, including the surgeon’s wife, who had given her son to one of the young girls at the center to hold. War was a masculine art, but when you started attacking women, you’d stopped engaging in war. You deserved anything that happened to you after that point. Adin’s father was among the wounded. Alive, bless the Heralds, but bleeding badly.

He’d fought for the Radiants, when Adin … Adin had hidden in the hallway. Storm him, he wasn’t going to be a coward again. He … he wasn’t. Adin fell into line beside a fearsome parshman in incredible carapace armor, then tried to position himself with his spear out, in that parshman’s same posture. The stormforms marched in, singing a terrible song. Adin found himself trembling, his hands slick on his spear. Oh, storms. In that moment, he didn’t want to earn a spren. He didn’t want to fight. He wanted to be home making plates, listening to his father hum. He didn’t want to be standing here, knowing that they were all … all going to … A hand took Adin by the shoulder and moved him backward. Not all the way back, but enough for the figure to stand in front of him. It was the quiet bridgeman, Dabbid. Adin didn’t complain, not after seeing those stormforms. Felt good to have someone in front of him, though the bridgeman’s spear shook. He was acting afraid to fool the enemy, right?

The stormforms didn’t release lightning, which was good. The others had thought they might not, because of the marketplace. Their powers were too wild. Regardless, there seemed to be … be hundreds of them. A call came from somewhere behind, and they came charging in—rippling with red lightning that flashed when they touched something. In seconds, everything was chaos. Adin screamed, squeezing his eyes shut, holding out his spear and shaking. No, he had to fight. He had to— Something knocked into him from behind, throwing him forward. The strike dazed him, and he lost his spear. When he rolled over, a Voidbringer with red eyes stood above him.

The creature casually speared downward. Adin didn’t even have time to scream before— Clink. Clink? The stormform cocked his head, humming an odd song. He stabbed at Adin’s chest, but the spear stopped short again. Adin looked at his body as he lay prone on the floor. His torso was surrounded by glittering blue armor. He raised his hands, and found them covered in gauntlets. He was in Shardplate. He was in SHARDPLATE. “Ha!” he shouted, and kicked at the stormform. The creature went flying, soaring twenty feet and slamming into a wall. Adin had barely felt any resistance. It was like he’d always imagined. It … The Shardplate vanished off him and turned into a group of windspren, which soared over to Dabbid, who was about to take an axe to the head. Clink. Both combatants—the human now shrouded in Shardplate, and the enemy who had hit him—froze in place, stunned.

The enemy backed away, and the Plate flew off again, this time surrounding the lead Heavenly One. She’d been spearing at a stormform who released a flash of lightning that enveloped her. When Adin’s eyes cleared, he saw her floating in Shardplate, staring at her hands in obvious wonder. Confused, the stormforms began calling out, disengaging and re-forming into ranks. The armor burst apart, forming those strange windspren who flew into the air overhead before latching on to a figure hovering above the buildings. The Plate had fit everyone, but him it matched. A brilliant Knight Radiant in glowing armor, holding aloft an intricate Shardspear. He left the helmet off so they could all see. Kaladin Stormblessed, bright as the sun.

“I bring word from the Sibling!” he shouted. “They don’t remember inviting you in. And considering that they aren’t merely the master of this house, they literally are this house, your actions are quite the insult.” Brilliant lights suddenly began running up the walls, making the very core of the stones glow as if molten in the center. Similar lights burst to life in the ceiling. The ground trembled, as if the entire mountain were shaking. Clanking sounds rang in the hallways, like distant machines, and wind began to blow in the vast chamber—which now was as bright as day. Most amazing, the lightning on the stormforms went out. Deepest Ones, who had been clawing out of the ground and grabbing at the feet of soldiers, began screaming and going limp, trapped in the stone.

The Heavenly Ones who had been helping dropped to the ground suddenly, then collapsed, unconscious. Groans sounded from behind. The Radiants on the floor at the center of the circle began stirring. They were awake! “You may turn in your weapons,” Stormblessed said to the enemy. “And return to your kind unharmed, so long as you promise me one thing.” He smiled. “Tell him that I’m particularly going to enjoy hearing what he looked like when he found out what happened here today.”

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

I disagree, It certainly made the fight easier and far less bloody but I still disagree it makes the fight back impossible, or even improbable, given kaladin and the heavenly ones.

The humans were surrounded by that point with stormform forming up and surrounding them. The heavenly ones were outnumbered. Kaladin can only shield one person at a time. Further reinforcements were incoming. A shardbearer cannot hold ground remember? I see no way that Kaladin alone at 4th oath leading unarmed humans, and a portion of the heavenly ones against superior numbers that will get regularly replenished could prevail, and push them out of the tower. I guess at this point we will just have to agree to disagree on this portion of the topic.

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I agree, I thought I had said this. But for the sake of clarity I misremembered navani speaking this out loud.

Ah I was a bit confused because there was a misspelling so I didn't know if you were saying could, or couldn't

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No it wasnt just Honors tune, it was the harmonised tune. Which Navani learned to do by both her and Raboniel starting at the two pure tones and both harmonising.

The harmonized tune is completely different than its component parts. And you are saying Kaladin with Rlain, and somehow human scholars despite them being under lock and key can figure out what took Navani days with insights gleaned from Raboniel (an ancient thousands of years old, who couldn't figure it out herself). I completely and absolutely disagree. There is nothing about Rlain that would make him better or capable of the task. 

 

1. him being a listener does not count because even Raboniel being of the same species, and having studied into the subject for thousands of years was unable to

2. him being a spy does not count. Even scholars such as Venli took ages to figure out the lost forms, and even then she needed help from a voidspren. How would a spy with no training in scholarly pursuits do better?

3. The human scholars are under lock and key, and even if you could free them, they would not have the same interactions with Raboniel in order to glean the same insights that Navani did. 

 

So again, as far as I am concerned, there is no way anyone else could have figured out and harmonized the the tones to create light with the sibling, nor the know how of fabrials to vent the voidlight, healing the sibling. I am sorry, but it is clear to me it had to be Navani or not at all. 

 

Rhythm of War page 872

"Does Towerlight have a tone?" Navani asked

"Two tones" Raboiel said, opening her eyes and setting down the Stormlight sphere. "But they aren't simply the tones of Cultivation and of Honor. They are....different, changed so that they are in harmony with one another"

"Curious" Navani said "And is there a rhythm to it?"

"Yes" Raboniel said "Both tones adopt it, harmonizing as they play the same rhythm. A symphony combining Honor's control and Cultivation's ever building majesty"

The Towerlight spheres had all run out by now, and Raboniel had no way to restore them, so there was nothing for them to check

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I do not see how Rlain could not harmonise with the sibling, especially given the sibling knows the harmony tune from their end and Rlain has the musical ability inherent (or perhaps learned). Harmonising music is not a Navani exclusive ability, and singers have been stated throughout SA to be more in tune with the natural rhythms of Roshar. I do however think Navani is a better fit for the sibling.

The sibling does not know the harmony tune. The Sibling has no idea why it can no longer create light. I provided the quote earlier. The Sibling does not know what is wrong. Navani is the one that figured out the problem, and the solution. No one else. So again, I see no way that Rlain could go up to the Sibling, touch the pillar and know how to harmonize with it. 

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A singer has a greater ability with music, as is shown several times (they even talk to different rhythms). Navani is a greater scholar, I agree. It is not impossible nor unreasonable to assume that a singer would be able to harmonise with the sibling who was singing the already harmonied version of cultivationlight, than a human and fused both coming together with their respective un-harmonised tunes.

Raboniel was surprised and impressed by Navani's ability with music, to the point that Navani's insights and understanding exceeded Raboniel's. Raboniel on multiple occasions commented on how Navani's capabilities in many areas far exceed her own. 

Based on the evidence in the book, as far as I am concerned, it is highly improbable that Rlain, Kaladin, and or the scholars would have figured it out.

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I touched on the harmonisation above. As to pushing enemies out, I dont think its likely and as you said the plans where the reasonable retreat. However its within the realm of posibilities.

With all due respect, I do not think it is within the realm of possibilities. If anything I feel we are hammered over the head repeatedly across the novel of that. Kaladin's only avenue is fleeing. The only way to repel the invaders and reclaim the tower is the Sibling. 

 

Rhythm of War page 1084

They'd practiced Kaladin's trick of infusing objects and is boots to climb down walls. In an emergency, someone might have to jump out the window and hope to regain their powers before they hit the ground - but that was an absolute last resort. The current plan was for the Windrunners to climb down the outside, each with another Radiant strapped to their backs.

It was far from a perfect plan, but it was better than letting the Fused murder the Radiants while they were in comas.

"Even if you only get yourself out" Kaladin said "do it, rather than staying and making a hopeless stand. Take your spren and get to Dalinar."

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But lets explore the difference between only Navani, vs only Kaladin.

No Kaladin means, the sibling is fully corrupted (first node) all the radiants in the tower likely die (no kaladin to distract moash, although he may not have shown up), victory is not even a faint possibility.

I believe this is a false equivalency. Just because Kaladin was a crucial part in the delaying tactics to get the Sibling healed by Navani, does not negate the importance of restoring the Sibling. Without the Sibling, there is only retreat and loss of the tower. 

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No Navani, Kaladin defends the first node, the second node is unlikely to be found,

Disagree for the reasons I mentioned before. The Sibling was wiretapped. Raboniel would have still found out about the second node because the Sibling is the one that stated its location. 

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Kaladin doesnt get psuedo flight, but the rest of the resistance plays out much the same, maybe slightly more in team radiants favour.

Disagree because as stated above, the second node would still have been found. Further the nodes would not have been a thing to begin with because if it was not for Navani, the Sibling would not have contacted anyone to begin with. 

 

edit: Before you state that the Sibling would have sent Dabbid to Kaladin, keep in find a few things:

 

1. The sibling only used the crazy lady and Dabbid to contact Navani initially via spanreed to get her to stop

2. Had that not happened, then by the time the Sibling would have any impetus to contact anyone, the span reeds would no longer work, so the sibling would have no way to communicate with Kaladin to let him know they existed to begin with, nonetheless that they could communicate via the veins of rock.

3. No communication, means no way to tell Kaladin to infuse to start the shield to begin with

4. Even if some how all three of the above were not issues, it still involves an attack by soldiers that will fail with them all dying. Kaladin at this point in his progression would have never let the men go alone, and would have not abandoned them, so he would have died with them.

5. Kaladin would have definitely abandoned the attempt for the Sibling, because they literally tell Navani that the group of men holding off the fused are doomed. To forget them, and focused on infusing the gemstones to get the shield up. 

 

So forgetting everything else on the list (though it is considerable and I do not see how), can you honestly tell me that when the Sibling tells Kaladin to forget and abandon men who are doomed and going to die, in favor of infusing the gemstones, that Kaladin would do so? In his current state of mind? That he would not go back in a last ditch effort to save every single one of them, and then drop down insensate upon failing and watching guard after guard die? 

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The final battle approaches, no sibling to back up, so Kaladin now has a much harder fight, but mixed with the heavenly ones is likely able to push the enemy back and either escape with most of their lives or possible push them out and either deactivating the oathgates, or killing moash at taking the honorblade.

Without Sibling back up, Kaladin would not have been alive at this point at all. Remember the room that because of the Sibling Kaladin was able to hide in? They never spoke of the location, but the Sibling is the reason Kaladin found it, and could use it as an impromptu base of operations in enemy territory. Further without Navani, then there would be no glove to use a "hacked" version of lashings, so Kaladin's mobility would have been severely lacking, and taken out by the Pursuer since he would have had only access to adhesion. Keep in mind there is a whole list of occurrences that flow from Navani, that if not for her, it would have been game over practically at the beginning of the book. 

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Their chance of success is slim yes, but given the heavenly ones, additional signers and human resistance there is a chance they can push the enemy out and hold the tower, giving time for the scholars/heavenly ones/singers to workout how to help the sibling.

And based on what I see in the book, the chance of success would only be fleeing. No chance of retaking the tower. Full stop. I genuinely see no evidence that would show otherwise. I respect that is your view, but I am sorry I really cannot see a middle ground in this. There is just too much info showing that it had to be Navani, and that without her, the tower falls. 

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When we break it down like this it is clear that while Navani was integral, and saved significant bloodshed, it was Kaladin who saved the tower and its people.

I disagree that the break down you provided concludes this. Further I disagree that the end result can be stated in that manner. Both actions were crucial and necessary. Kaladin delaying the enemy and Navani restoring the Sibling. I think it is a false dichotomy to divide their contributions in the manner you have presented in your conclusion. 

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On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

What, did you read the same book? She didnt stop working on the research raboneil wanted her to work on until it was complete. This is litterlay like saying i found my keys in the last place I looked

She outsmarted Raboneil at the end which resulted in Raboneil's death. 

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

With what dagger? She needed the dagger from raboneil which came after the antilight

She had raysium.  The dagger is just a blade surrounding a raysium core.  I think it reasonable to presume Navani could improvise something.

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

I disagree, she got the knowledge of tones affecting it from the other scholars (tubing forks) and the joint light from the tower light. Did raboneil help her yes, but she was not necissary.

She did not know why the tones worked, what they were, or how to manifest them fully.

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

She rediscovered how it was made. So my wording was slightly off but my intent was on rediscover. The connection, should have been considered by her, she considered none of the consequences of working with the fused. This is part of my issue.

Navani immediately realizes what she has done and feels and extremely guilty for such a mistake.  I don't see how this is any different then Dalinar's early missteps at Theylen field costing him his own army.

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

She did not do the research to prevent raboneil from corrupting the tower. As you yourself has stated, Navani knew that Raboneil was lieing to her about freeing people or leaving the tower. Navani litterly researched the weapon Raboneil used, she doesnt bear all the responsibility thats true, but some of it. 

Navani's decision making process happens on scree.  Here are the relevant passages.

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What game is this? Navani thought. Surely this Fused didn’t actually expect Navani to design fabrials for the enemy?...

True,” Raboniel said. “You are not prideful. I respect that. But consider my offer before rejecting it. If you are close to me, you would have a much easier time tracking what I’m doing, spying on my projects. You will also have greater opportunity to sneak information out to your husband, in hope of an eventual rescue. I know many things about Stormlight and Voidlight that you do not. Pay attention, and I suspect you’d learn more from me than you’d give up.” ...

Navani liked to think that she could see patterns, that she could make order from chaos. There was a way out of this mess. She had to believe that.

Treat it like any other problem, Navani thought to herself. Approach it systematically, breaking it down into manageable pieces.

Last night, she’d decided on a few general courses of action. First, she had to maintain the ground she’d already obtained. That meant making certain the Sibling’s shield remained in place.

Goal one is keeping an eye on Raboneil and communicating with Kaladin so he can destroy or defend nodes as needed.  Rabonel would have destroyed the sheild as soon as she discovered the second node if Navani had not decided to work with her.

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

No im blaming navani for working with the enemy instead of not.

Would have resulted in the tower's fall much sooner.  Her initial decision was probably the correct one.

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

But it wasnt, navani wasnt working on it knowing it was different from anti light. Infact once she realised this she feverently worked on anti light to prove herself. Navani did not mnow that combinding light was different from antilight until they had war light.

She was guessing and turned out to be correct in this case.  She had a solid theory to work from.  Warfare means making decisions with limited information.

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

Except we read her motives, brandon litterally showed us her decision making

Then you should have no trouble demonstrating this with direct quotes from the text that mean exactly what you say they do.

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

She litterally gave them the method for creating antilight which is not of limited valur to the fused

Reread the statement.  Warlight is of limited value to the fused.  Navani did not reserch antilight willingly it was discovered at a wrong moment.

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

Perhaps, she worked with the enemy, and gave good groundbreaking research for nothing more than the hope, she might get a chance to help

Yeah.  She also did help.

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

This is still a poor decision, and if she was going to try this you dont give away cutting edge research, why not work om her lifts, or even having worked with the enemy, getting to warlight, they think antilight is now impossible stoping here? She made several poor decisions and they only worked out because of plot.

She had to work on what Raboneil made her or Raboneil would have dismissed her and sent her to carry water.  Appearing cooperative was necessary.  Things worked out as you say because Navani worked to make them had faith they would, and was subsequently proven correct. 

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

What did you say earlier about fact and opinion? Fear being present does not always make it a motivator, nor do we see navanis actions driven by fear.

All factors present will alter behavior and as such are motivators in that context.  In this particular instance given how much strain Navani was under I think it reasonable to think fear played a role in her choices even if she was fairly good at coping with it.

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

what altruistic reasons where shown in the book?

Her first choices were to try and keep the sibling safe.  Her choice was also the more dangerous one personally.  Working under Raboneil directly leaves Navani at much greater risk of being executed for treason then just carrying water IMO.

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

Saying ohh look a bee, while a house burns behind you isnt fighting to hide it. 

Trying to kill someone while they report does not count either?

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

What, did you read the same book? She didnt stop working on the research raboneil wanted her to work on until it was complete. This is litterlay like saying i found my keys in the last place I looked

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

What, did you read the same book? She didnt stop working on the research raboneil wanted her to work on until it was complete. This is litterlay like saying i found my keys in the last place I looked

I was referring to the fact that Navani tried to kill Raboneil twice and succeeded the second time.

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

Did you read this section? Navanis entire thougjt process was about how great it was to let go and only worry about her scholarly persuits, no distractions to take her away from it. She never once displayed a thought hinting at there being any other motive.

You are referring to Navani's work process.  She is trying to work effectively on her plan.  This involves a certain mindset.

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

Navani sat in a room and did research for the fused.

And provided information, offed Raboneil, restored the sibling, delayed the effectiveness of human scholars, provided the technology that kept Kaladin's ability to fight...

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

Thats not a plan,  when this blows up  one of the fragments will goes through her eye and kill her. This was a smart but brash attempt to make the most of the situation and ome of the smarter things she did, it was still not a plan.

It came pretty close to working for "not a plan."

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

Yes we dont know the mechanics, but its also not a garuntee that with raboneil dead it would have delayed things, afterall it was raboneil stopping the radiants from being killed. Seems like a good trade though, a few days/weeks wait for all the radiant lives

I do not know what the fused rules of succession would be under the circumstances and neither do you or Navani.  Given that death is temporary to the fused I would think that under the circumstances the rules would be along the lines of "keep everything running smoothly until Raboneil gets back."

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

So, then the fused wouldnt have it. I didnt say it was a great choice, just the better choice.

So let me get this strait.  Because Navani did not do exactly what you would have done she is a stupid egomaniac?

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

The entire sequence of navani feverishly working on antilight  where she comments on not having other distractions amd how wondeful it is to finally be just a scholar even if only for a minute, i do not have a digital ocpy of the book or I would cite it, however she not once during this thought, ohhh i can use this to save people, she infact thinks almost the opposite when she says she doesnt need to worry about other things.

The entire point of that sequence is about how Navani can't think of anything else.  In singer terms she is attuning the rhythm of scholastic achievement.

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For the first time in her life, she let go completely. No worries about Dalinar or Jasnah. No worries about the tower. No thoughts about the million other things she should be doing.

This was what she should be doing.

Or so she allowed herself to believe. She let herself be free. In her little room of a laboratory, everything fit together. She’d met scholars who claimed they needed chaos to function. Perhaps that was true for some, but in her experience, good science wasn’t about sloppy inspiration. It was about meticulous incrementalization.

 

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

Given  what she knew of antilight she should have fought tooth and nail to either not hand over or destroy her research. 

Firstly she does not know of antilight yet.  Secondly fighting tooth and nail accomplishes nothing in this scenario.

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

I understand how probabilities work, lets explore it a little. Lets assume that each "coin flip" moment had a .5 chance of working (this is likely smaller but benefit of the doubt. Navani risks everything that the first moment goes un noticed by .5, the first two moments going un noticed iss now .25 (.5x.5) the thrid is .125, the fourth js 0.0625. Etc etc, so after only 4 coinflip moments navano has 6.25% chance of them all working out. 

Opportunities multiply as you seize them.  Navani has a 6.25% chance of getting that spesific outcome.  No one knows how many coin flips are in any given sequence or what is at the end of every sequence.  In regards to Navani's security you actually have it backwards.  It has to go correct for Raboneil at each level.  Otherwise Navani gets antilight without Raboneil realizing.

On 12/15/2020 at 0:00 AM, Lemiltock said:

You cant, but ehen the choice is do nothing and hope or perform research for the fused and hope. Option 1 likely results in less negatives. If the scales had started to tip, say raboneil had threated peoples lives if she didnt help, and help properly, then perhaps navani eould have a leg to stand on when shifting blame. But thats not how it happened.

Option one results in no immediate negatives but the human position is already untenable.  Doing nothing will result in the permanent loss of Urithiru and unmaking of the sibling.

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i'm just going to this straight and simple: stop hating on Navani, we get it, you don't think she made good decisions, but first, everyone makes bad choices, in some cases stupendously so, but this thread is about where she goes from here, not why she is the worst character in the Cosmere, so stop trying to make people see it that way, and rant to yourself, not people that hate it. also, have you considered that she didn't consider that anti-light could kill radiant spren?

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On 17/12/2020 at 8:07 AM, GameOfGroans said:

Where I live, there is a saying, "It's easy to be a general after the battle".

My impression is that if somebody doesn't like Navani just because, they will find fault in her no matter what she does. And pretty much anything can be spun if people put their minds to it.

That was precisely the reason why I ignored the whole discussion. It seems like an attempt to convince someone who is going to argue forever that everything Navani did was wrong, and nothing can change that.

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