Necessary Eagle

Navani: where does she go from here?

86 posts in this topic

4 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Good thing she didn't. Odium's forces wouldn't have a new weapon, but neither would the good guys. The good guys also wouldn't have Urithiru and the Sibling would be Unmade.

So yeah.

I mean, maybe letting the Fused win would have been better than unleashing what Navani gave the enemy. And also, Navani retaking the tower was in no way a sure thing. Heck, it was damn near impossible. The most likely outcome was that Navani gives that weapon to Rabonial, the humans lose the tower, and the great Spren genocide occurs. 

Navani saved the tower, but that was damn near a fluke. I dont think her collaborating with the enemy is forgiven because very unlikely pieces managed to come together. What do you think the Spren reaction will be when they realize Navani gave the enemy this technology AND that she wasn't forced to do any of it? She did it because she wanted Rabonial's approval as a scholar...

I am happy for Navani, but I won't lie and say I think she did the right thing for the Cosmere. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

I mean, maybe letting the Fused win would have been better than unleashing what Navani gave the enemy. And also, Navani retaking the tower was in no way a sure thing. Heck, it was damn near impossible. The most likely outcome was that Navani gives that weapon to Rabonial, the humans lose the tower, and the great Spren genocide occurs. 

Navani saved the tower, but that was damn near a fluke. I dont think her collaborating with the enemy is forgiven because very unlikely pieces managed to come together. What do you think the Spren reaction will be when they realize Navani gave the enemy this technology AND that she wasn't forced to do any of it? She did it because she wanted Rabonial's approval as a scholar...

I am happy for Navani, but I won't lie and say I think she did the right thing for the Cosmere. 

So I see your point here, and as Rayse-Odium said: what she did changed everything.

But I think the most likely scenario was going to be, Navani failed to figure it out in time, the humans lose the Tower, the Sibling is unmade, and the Radiants lose. Yes, "death" is now permanent in some ways. But Raboniel made a very important point--that they have to produce the light. They have to figure out how to do that. And it's not assured that they have that logistical ability among the Fused. Perhaps this is where the mysterious El comes in, but Rayse didn't exactly stack his army of Fused with scholars and engineers, and they haven't grown and changed since they became Fused, meaning their abilities are limited here. 

I also think it's uncharitable to say "Navani gave the enemy" that weapon. She gave it to her side too. It's an arms race, yes. And as it is with science, the ethics sometimes post-date the discoveries in very dangerous ways. She needs to reckon with that in Book 5, and I think she's more likely to do that as Bondsmith to the Sibling than if her only point of external wisdom was Perma-Warrior Dalinar. 

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10 minutes ago, Bliev said:

So

I also think it's uncharitable to say "Navani gave the enemy" that weapon. She gave it to her side too. It's an arms race, yes. And as it is with science, the ethics sometimes post-date the discoveries in very dangerous ways. She needs to reckon with that in Book 5, and I think she's more likely to do that as Bondsmith to the Sibling than if her only point of external wisdom was Perma-Warrior Dalinar. 

My point here is that Navani made anti-light with no real plan of how to get it to her people. The most likely thing that was going to happen was that Rabonial would shut Navani up somehow after the discovery was made.

Navani was close to figuring it out for a long time. Heck, Navani is the only one who knew for sure that the light was possible and what it might do (explosion). She could have carried water and held on to hew ideas and tested them later with another Singer, but she didn't. She didn't care what happened to the knowledge but instead was obsess (literally) with getting to the answer as soon as possible. And on a deeper level, she was obsessed with getting the approval of a true scholar despite what that might do to Navani's people. I was screaming at Navani during this section of the book because I couldn't believe how unbelievably reckless she was being ESPECIALLY after being tricked by Rabonial so many times in a row. Navani knows this light is the thing Rabonial wants to end the war, so I just couldn't support Navani moving ahead with it. 

In most rolls of the dice the humans never hear of Navani's discovery. Navani was tempted to create anti-light even though she knew there was a 100% chance the Fused would keep the knowledge while there was a 5% chance the humans would somehow retake the tower AND have Navani be able to share the secret. 

It is a fluke the humans kept the knowledge as well. Navani was extremely foolish. Maybe fortune helped her out, but damn Navani, you could have just waited....

Edited by teknopathetic
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4 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

It is a fluke the humans kept the knowledge as well. Navani was extremely foolish. Maybe fortune helped her out, but damn Navani, you could have just waited....

I can agree with the fact that she got realllll lucky. But it made for really exciting reading. lol

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3 hours ago, Bliev said:

I can agree with the fact that she got realllll lucky. But it made for really exciting reading. lol

You didn't feel anxious? I was so happy she was thriving, but I was also so tressed that she was handing the enemy all of her knowledge so quickly. 

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1 hour ago, teknopathetic said:

You didn't feel anxious? I was so happy she was thriving, but I was also so tressed that she was handing the enemy all of her knowledge so quickly. 

Oh yes anxious! But I was also really engaged in the scientific process with them so very entertained. I was more anxious with the Ishar and Todium subplots though. 

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10 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

My point here is that Navani made anti-light with no real plan of how to get it to her people. The most likely thing that was going to happen was that Rabonial would shut Navani up somehow after the discovery was made.

Navani almost killed Rabonial though! She knew the two lights would explode if mixed and made that trap. Unfortunately, Fused bodies are more durable than she expected. It almost worked. I agree she could've done more to stall. Iwas banging my head on the wall the whole time lol. She just kept going even after every betrayal.

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1 hour ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Navani almost killed Rabonial though! She knew the two lights would explode if mixed and made that trap. Unfortunately, Fused bodies are more durable than she expected. It almost worked. I agree she could've done more to stall. Iwas banging my head on the wall the whole time lol. She just kept going even after every betrayal.

Well it dint matter as Rabonial had already passed the information on to Kolinar. 

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21 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Well it dint matter as Rabonial had already passed the information on to Kolinar. 

Had she? I'm pretty sure Rabonial started playing with it immediately, but I don't have the book on me right now to check.

It doesn't matter in the grand scheme; the assassination was a fail. My only point was that Navani did have a plan, it just didn't work.

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She sent her copy of Rhythm of War along to Kholinar via Oathgate. 

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4 hours ago, Czernobog said:

She sent her copy of Rhythm of War along to Kholinar via Oathgate. 

Just found the passage. It appears Rabonial didn't send it until after the almost assassination. From chapter 97:

Quote

“Go ahead,” Raboniel said. “I’ll wait.” She waved for the guard to go with Navani, though the Fused herself continued staring at the gemstone. In fact, Raboniel was so fixated on the diamond that she didn’t notice Navani take Rhythm of War as she stepped out with the guard into the hallway. She braced herself. Expecting … An explosion.

and from chapter 106:

Quote

“Stormfather,” she whispered. “That’s what it was all about.” Raboniel wanted to end the war, one way or another. The notebook Navani held was a copy, and Navani realized that the original notebook would be in Kholinar, delivered to the leaders of the singer military—likely along with the vacuum chamber and the metal plates.

Even if it was sent before chapter 97 the important stuff hadn't been discovered yet.

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3 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Just found the passage. It appears Rabonial didn't send it until after the almost assassination. From chapter 97:

and from chapter 106:

Even if it was sent before chapter 97 the important stuff hadn't been discovered yet.

Well then how does El have it?

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18 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Well then how does El have it?

Huh? The assassination attempt was a fail... Meaning it was sent later. Ch 97 is where Rabonial almost died but hadn't sent the note book yet. By ch 106 it had been sent thus El having it.

To repeat myself: My only point is that Navani did have a plan, it just didn't work.

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On 04/12/2020 at 10:59 AM, Leuthie said:

Anti-science is strong in this thread.

Navani discovered something that the enemy will use as a weapon. It can also be used by the good guys as a weapon. It's now easier to kill Radiants. It's now possible to permanently kill Fused. There are way fewer Fused than there are Radiant spren. The use of anti-light favors the good guys.

But the world hasn't thrown consequences her way because NO ONE KNOWS. Raboniel, Navani and the Sibling know where anti-Voidlight and anti-Stormlight came from. Raboniel is dead. Navani and the Sibling have an understanding about it.

Also, Navani has these same arguments with herself after realizing the weapon she gave the enemy. Ultimately, she convinced an ancient spren to help save the tower and the Radiants she put in direct danger, killed the one that basically forced her to make the discoveries, and kept a notebook so her side could take advantage of the same weapons. I think she's made up for her discovery.

 

 

On 05/12/2020 at 3:21 AM, Leuthie said:

Good thing she didn't. Odium's forces wouldn't have a new weapon, but neither would the good guys. The good guys also wouldn't have Urithiru and the Sibling would be Unmade.

So yeah.

You mean Dabbid wouldnt have found Kaladin amd the sibling asked him to help protect the nodes. The well node was found because of Navani, she willing gave information, aftee being out played the first time she shluld have realisea anything she discoveres would be found and used by the fussed. She effectivley built a weapon for the fusses, things would be different if she had that research and they found it and used it as a weapon, but they didnt. Navani willing chose to share her findigns with fussed if it only ment she could be the one to discover it, she should bear the full responsibility for working as R&D for Odium. 

 

Team Honor also didnt need a weapon, they had a strategy, contest of champions, and a means of forcing it by storing fussed and unmade into gems, which they had already done once. Odiums force gained far more from this discovery, and the discovery came because Navani worked with the enemy. What she did in the tower besides bonding the sibling did nothing to save it, she at every turn made things worse for those she was supposed to protect all because she was playing scholar and not caring for the consequence.

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16 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Team Honor also didnt need a weapon, they had a strategy, contest of champions, and a means of forcing it by storing fussed and unmade into gems, which they had already done once. Odiums force gained far more from this discovery, and the discovery came because Navani worked with the enemy. What she did in the tower besides bonding the sibling did nothing to save it, she at every turn made things worse for those she was supposed to protect all because she was playing scholar and not caring for the consequence.

I very much disagree with this. The contest of champions is not a failsafe plan, and it mostly targets Odium, not the Fused and singers. I suspect that the ability to destroy Voidlight will be instrumental in book 5, and likely the back 5 as well. This was a very important discovery, and it could easily be the difference between winning and losing, in the end (I could see the final solution being to use a modification of this technology to permanently destroy Odium's power - but that's a digression).

As for Navani's choice to work with Raboniel, I'm not convinced that it was the wrong one. And even it was, it's a very justifiable mistake. Navani would have been passing up the opportunity to work with a 7000 year old scholar to unravel the secrets of technology very relevant to their current war efforts. Even without knowing exactly the outcome, that seems like a pretty big opportunity to pass up in favor of water-carrying. Plus, by working with Raboniel she was able to have a lot more influence over the Fused than she would have otherwise. It wasn't the political side of things that did turn out to be the most important, but she couldn't have known that going in. And it's hardly like she was sitting idly by and handing the enemy weapons! She was constantly trying to figure out ways out of the mess, which she wouldn't have been able to do otherwise, and in the meantime building traps and contacting allies. Yes, she wasn't able to hide her discoveries from Raboniel, but it's not like she didn't try. The decision was a difficult one, but still, I think, the right one. I respect that others may not share this opinion, but a complete denunciation of Navani's actions is unjustified.

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1 hour ago, Ookla the Uscritic said:

I very much disagree with this. The contest of champions is not a failsafe plan, and it mostly targets Odium, not the Fused and singers. I suspect that the ability to destroy Voidlight will be instrumental in book 5, and likely the back 5 as well. This was a very important discovery, and it could easily be the difference between winning and losing, in the end (I could see the final solution being to use a modification of this technology to permanently destroy Odium's power - but that's a digression).

Perhaps, but she could have made this discovery after her imprisionment and then Odium would not also have this weapon.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Uscritic said:

As for Navani's choice to work with Raboniel, I'm not convinced that it was the wrong one.

Working with the enemy to develop a weapon isnt the wrong choice? Because she did work with her, she was barely cohersed with simple promises of knowledge.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Uscritic said:

And even it was, it's a very justifiable mistake.

Again, she chose to work with the enemy, and not just singers, which could be justified as just another group of people that working together we can reconsile our differences, it was working with a fussed and Odium to again develop a weapon.

 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Uscritic said:

Navani would have been passing up the opportunity to work with a 7000 year old scholar to unravel the secrets of technology very relevant to their current war efforts. Even without knowing exactly the outcome, that seems like a pretty big opportunity to pass up in favor of water-carrying.

So tempted by Odium and for knowledge, she knew anytbing she discovered would end up i Odiums hands, she didnt care. This is the crux of the issue, she chose to further her own knowledge and renown rather than not working with Odium, the choice is simple, she just wanted the carrot and didnt care how big the stick was.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Uscritic said:

Plus, by working with Raboniel she was able to have a lot more influence over the Fused than she would have otherwise.

Did she, what influense other than giving them a weapon and giving them the location of a node did she have? She didnt bargain for her peoples safety, she bargained for knowledge and trusted the empty promise of well leave the tower, who would have thought that a fused would lie to her. 

1 hour ago, Ookla the Uscritic said:

It wasn't the political side of things that did turn out to be the most important, but she couldn't have known that going in. And it's hardly like she was sitting idly by and handing the enemy weapons!

No it wasnt idle, she activley developed the equivelent of a nuke for them. Which again is the issue, she activly worked with Odium to develop a weapon. Choosing to not look at it that didnt change that she knew Odium would use the knowledge she found and weaponise it.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Uscritic said:

She was constantly trying to figure out ways out of the mess, which she wouldn't have been able to do otherwise, and in the meantime building traps and contacting allies. Yes, she wasn't able to hide her discoveries from Raboniel, but it's not like she didn't try.

Ohhh no dont look through my things, please dont listen in on me, she didnt try very hard, writing it all in her notebook. Again just because she lied to herself doesnt mean she didnt hand nukes on a ailver plater to Odium

1 hour ago, Ookla the Uscritic said:

The decision was a difficult one, but still, I think, the right one. I respect that others may not share this opinion, but a complete denunciation of Navani's actions is unjustified.

not difficult at all, do you a) work with Odium for no gain other than knowledge or b ) dont work with Odium. The choice really is simple, ahe wasnt tortured, her peopke wernt tortured it was hey come to the dark side, we have cookies. If she had been forced things would be different but she chose to betray humanity for a little bit of knowledge.

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I mean, part of the message of this whole series is that you always keep trying, no matter how hard it seems, no matter how hopeless it seems.

Kaladin could have "given up" a hundred times. Stopped trying to free slaves, stopped trying to escape. Each attempt was costly. But he always kept trying.

Dalinar could have "given up" so many times. He chose not to - he kept fighting, even when it was hopeless, even when he saw no way to win.

And we're seeing the same with Navani. She could have given up. Went down to carrying water. But she didn't. She kept fighting, kept trying to beat Raboniel even though it felt hopeless, she was outmatched and cornered. Kept trying to find some bit of technology that would let her get the upper hand.

And, like the other cases, it worked out. If she'd have given up, she would not be a Bondsmith now, the Sibling would be dead/corrupted, and the tower would be lost for good. She didn't, so now the tower is back in human hands, Odium's agreed to the contest of champions (in part because he lost the tower!) and they have ways of permakilling Fused and making whole new weapons (though so do the Fused.)

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29 minutes ago, ftl said:

I mean, part of the message of this whole series is that you always keep trying, no matter how hard it seems, no matter how hopeless it seems.

Kaladin could have "given up" a hundred times. Stopped trying to free slaves, stopped trying to escape. Each attempt was costly. But he always kept trying.

Dalinar could have "given up" so many times. He chose not to - he kept fighting, even when it was hopeless, even when he saw no way to win.

And we're seeing the same with Navani. She could have given up. Went down to carrying water. But she didn't. She kept fighting, kept trying to beat Raboniel even though it felt hopeless, she was outmatched and cornered. Kept trying to find some bit of technology that would let her get the upper hand.

And, like the other cases, it worked out. If she'd have given up, she would not be a Bondsmith now, the Sibling would be dead/corrupted, and the tower would be lost for good. She didn't, so now the tower is back in human hands, Odium's agreed to the contest of champions (in part because he lost the tower!) and they have ways of permakilling Fused and making whole new weapons (though so do the Fused.)

She didnt keep fighting though, what did she fight for, her knowledge? She created the equivelent of a nuke for Odium, thats not fighting its working for the enemy.

 

Yer it worked out for her, because everyone was like ohh yer you made a nuke, Odium used it to kill a spren already ahhh well your a bondsmith though  so good job.

 

When Kaladin and Dalinar kept fighting, it was them not giving into Odium, not them working for him for some promise of knowledge down the line.

Navani didnt even not write down what she had discovered, she left them a manual.

 

As to who saved the tower, Navani didnt, Kaladin did. Who gave the people hope, who defended the towers nodes, who resisted against the fused, who kicked them out. Yes bonding the Sibling helpped but Kaladin fought the whole time, he gave hope, amd after swearing the fourth oath he woukd have beaten the fussed sibling or not. Navani did not save anyone she created a nuke for her own advancement, this is the problem I have, i get mistakes, if shed stopped after the first, or only made one sure, but she made multiple, all in the name off some obscure knowledge while dealing wuth Odium. She was played and she should have known better.

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@Lemiltock We disagree on the tactics side of things. You seem to think that Navani would have been just as helpful carrying water; I don't. But since that's just speculation anyway, arguing over it probably isn't our best use of time. Instead, I'd like to focus on the validity of Navani's choice, and the way it plays into the theme of the book at large.

Navani is a Bondsmith. Although the plot can make it seem like that was just a matter of luck - being the only one available when a Bondsmith was needed - it really wasn't. Navani's been exhibiting Bondsmith ideals the whole time. Even aside from her mantra of order out of chaos (a suitably Bondsmith way of thinking), each of her actions show her willingness to reach across traditional divides, and to unite people behind one common goal. My very favorite part of Urithiru before RoW was the room full of scholars of all nationalities, working together for mutual benefit. And Navani created this a year before swearing her first ideal. She's always been bringing people together, just with a different method than Dalinar's; scholarship, not war.

And then she meets Raboniel. Raboniel is many things, including an adversary to Navani. She doesn't seem a good person - but nor does she seem an evil one. Nothing that Raboniel did was any worse than what the human leaders would have done in her place. And Navani recognizes this. When they meet, it is not one warlord to another, it is two brilliant minds recognizing an equal. Each sees in the other the potential of an ally, and acts accordingly. When Navani and Raboniel work together on their technology, I don't see it as defecting to the enemy. Instead, Navani was acting consistent with her ideals in the rest of the book  - she looked past their differences to see that they could accomplish something greater together. 

And that willingness to look past the human/singer divide is a big theme of the book. We get flashbacks and viewpoints from Eshonai and Venli, and we see positive interactions between Leshwi and Kaladin. And then, by working together, Navani and Raboniel create Warlight  - proof that humans and singers are not incompatible. I think that this is far more important than the war. Did working together give the Fused a powerful weapon? Yes. Did it give the humans a weapon too? Probably. But this is secondary to me, because the chance of working together is more important than the war. The science is more important than the war. Both sides got something out of the arrangement, but more importantly, both sides put something into it. I don't think that the end of the war is going to be one side annihilating the other with magical nukes - I think that it's going to be working together for a greater good. 

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Why are we pretending that there's a binary between Navani fetching water and building the second most dangerous weapon known to us in the cosmere after Nightblood for the enemy? Raboniel wasn't going to kick Navani to the curb if she didn't work on that one project, she didn't even task Navani to it in the first place. Every step of the way was Navani hearing Raboniel muse about her personal project and then decide to go fullbore into it, and we know from her internal narration that Navani was primarily doing it to prove that she could do it- that she couldn't control herself when given the opportunity to screw around with something astonishlingly dangerous right under the eyes of her conquerers.

I think something's being forgotten in people's rush of Yas Queen! Science Gal Pals! and that is that Raboniel is a monster. It kind of actually ticks me off a great deal honestly that people are ignoring that fact.

Quote

"During the last Return, she developed a disease intended to kill all humans on the planet. Near the end, it was discovered that the disease would kill many singers as well. She released it anyway... only to find, to all of our fortunes, that it did not work as expected. Fewer than one in ten humans were killed and one in a hundred singers."
-Leshwi

She knowingly designed and released a terrible disease that she intended to genocide the entire human species and a significant portion of her own people and only by pure chance did it merely be a catastrophe than utter extinction. I'm so sorry to hear you feel sad about your braindead daughter who you let steal some poor singer's body just to stare at walls, Raboniel, but you're a terrible, terrible person and no amount of "uwu look how sympathetic I am!" can change you from being Dr. Mengele in a crabshell.

Leshwi I understand some Sympathy for the Devil but Raboniel is hot trash. Navani was being next level stupid and arrogant and we're lucky she didn't accidentally hand Odium's armies artificial shardblades and ballistic missiles to go along with a weapon that she literally says before making it could "kill a god."

19 hours ago, ftl said:

I mean, part of the message of this whole series is that you always keep trying, no matter how hard it seems, no matter how hopeless it seems.

Kaladin could have "given up" a hundred times. Stopped trying to free slaves, stopped trying to escape. Each attempt was costly. But he always kept trying.

Dalinar could have "given up" so many times. He chose not to - he kept fighting, even when it was hopeless, even when he saw no way to win.

And we're seeing the same with Navani. She could have given up. Went down to carrying water. But she didn't. She kept fighting, kept trying to beat Raboniel even though it felt hopeless, she was outmatched and cornered. Kept trying to find some bit of technology that would let her get the upper hand.

And, like the other cases, it worked out. If she'd have given up, she would not be a Bondsmith now, the Sibling would be dead/corrupted, and the tower would be lost for good. She didn't, so now the tower is back in human hands, Odium's agreed to the contest of champions (in part because he lost the tower!) and they have ways of permakilling Fused and making whole new weapons (though so do the Fused.)

This is a false comparison. If Kal had been "not giving up" by deciding to fight with the Heavenly Ones because he enjoyed fighting with Leshwi too much to help himself, maybe, but let's not pretend freeing slaves or rejecting a violent past is remotely equivalent to weaponizing anti-magic as a collaborator. She wasn't being forced to work on it, but you know what she should have done if she was? Wash some clothes and rally resistance in secret.

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6 hours ago, Ookla the Uscritic said:

@Lemiltock We disagree on the tactics side of things. You seem to think that Navani would have been just as helpful carrying water; I don't. But since that's just speculation anyway, arguing over it probably isn't our best use of time. Instead, I'd like to focus on the validity of Navani's choice, and the way it plays into the theme of the book at large.

No i think she was less than helpful giving Odium a nuke, what help was she to the people of the tower, how did she save anyone. She didnt she wanted knowledge and didnt care about the cost tk achieve it.

6 hours ago, Ookla the Uscritic said:

Navani is a Bondsmith. Although the plot can make it seem like that was just a matter of luck - being the only one available when a Bondsmith was needed - it really wasn't. Navani's been exhibiting Bondsmith ideals the whole time. Even aside from her mantra of order out of chaos (a suitably Bondsmith way of thinking), each of her actions show her willingness to reach across traditional divides, and to unite people behind one common goal. My very favorite part of Urithiru before RoW was the room full of scholars of all nationalities, working together for mutual benefit. And Navani created this a year before swearing her first ideal. She's always been bringing people together, just with a different method than Dalinar's; scholarship, not war.

I dont disagree that Navani is a suitable bondsmith or that it wasnt foreshadowed, my issue is no one cares she made a nuke for Odium, if she had waited after making warlight at the very least if not earlier, remember she gave up the location of a node, she could have continued after the tower or she was free, but she didnt she had to prove herself it wasnt about saving anyone it was showing how great she was to a monster as @MyrmidonOfAchilles excellently put it.

6 hours ago, Ookla the Uscritic said:

And then she meets Raboniel. Raboniel is many things, including an adversary to Navani. She doesn't seem a good person - but nor does she seem an evil one. Nothing that Raboniel did was any worse than what the human leaders would have done in her place. And Navani recognizes this. When they meet, it is not one warlord to another, it is two brilliant minds recognizing an equal. Each sees in the other the potential of an ally, and acts accordingly. When Navani and Raboniel work together on their technology, I don't see it as defecting to the enemy. Instead, Navani was acting consistent with her ideals in the rest of the book  - she looked past their differences to see that they could accomplish something greater together. 

So even you see it wasnt about saving anyone, Navani could have carried water and Kaladin would have saved the day and Odium would have not ended uo with a nuke. What she found was impressive, but, she should have waited until she could discover it without Odium finding it.

6 hours ago, Ookla the Uscritic said:

And that willingness to look past the human/singer divide is a big theme of the book. We get flashbacks and viewpoints from Eshonai and Venli, and we see positive interactions between Leshwi and Kaladin. And then, by working together, Navani and Raboniel create Warlight  - proof that humans and singers are not incompatible. I think that this is far more important than the war. Did working together give the Fused a powerful weapon? Yes. Did it give the humans a weapon too? Probably. But this is secondary to me, because the chance of working together is more important than the war. The science is more important than the war. Both sides got something out of the arrangement, but more importantly, both sides put something into it. I don't think that the end of the war is going to be one side annihilating the other with magical nukes - I think that it's going to be working together for a greater good. 

She could have fostered singer human relations by working with them in administrative manners, or working with the singers, or by helping the humans in Ur to work with them. But instead she chose to chase knowledge and acceptance from a monster which resulted in giving Odium nukes. 

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1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

No i think she was less than helpful giving Odium a nuke, what help was she to the people of the tower, how did she save anyone. She didnt she wanted knowledge and didnt care about the cost tk achieve it.

I dont disagree that Navani is a suitable bondsmith or that it wasnt foreshadowed, my issue is no one cares she made a nuke for Odium, if she had waited after making warlight at the very least if not earlier, remember she gave up the location of a node, she could have continued after the tower or she was free, but she didnt she had to prove herself it wasnt about saving anyone it was showing how great she was to a monster as @MyrmidonOfAchilles excellently put it.

So even you see it wasnt about saving anyone, Navani could have carried water and Kaladin would have saved the day and Odium would have not ended uo with a nuke. What she found was impressive, but, she should have waited until she could discover it without Odium finding it.

She could have fostered singer human relations by working with them in administrative manners, or working with the singers, or by helping the humans in Ur to work with them. But instead she chose to chase knowledge and acceptance from a monster which resulted in giving Odium nukes. 

It's obvious that I'm not going to change your mind on this, so perhaps we may agree to disagree? I personally understand a lot of Navani's motivation, and think that her choice was a tactically valid one, and you don't. If I continue to explain my perspective, though, I suspect that we'll fall into repeating ourselves.

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On 12/6/2020 at 2:54 PM, Lemiltock said:

Perhaps, but she could have made this discovery after her imprisionment and then Odium would not also have this weapon.

Working with the enemy to develop a weapon isnt the wrong choice? Because she did work with her, she was barely cohersed with simple promises of knowledge.

Again, she chose to work with the enemy, and not just singers, which could be justified as just another group of people that working together we can reconsile our differences, it was working with a fussed and Odium to again develop a weapon

...

Navani would have never developed anti-light without Raboniel or someone with similar knowledge. Navani made the final leap, but the chasm was made shorter by Raboniel's knowledge of how Light and sound worked together. I realize that one of the human nations had also been using sound to coax light out of gems and Navani was aware of it, but the leap from that to anti-Light required Raboniel's help.

I've gone through the entire sequence of Raboniel and Navani, and I don't see a point where Navani could have stepped away from the process yet still developed the anti-Light. In most cases, she would have been killed by Vyre, who was fended off by Raboniel and the anti-Voidlight tone (and, finally, the tower defenses after Navani bonded with the Sibling, which wouldn't have been possible if Navani didn't stay in the research area and successfully discover things that Raboniel wanted...oh and the Voidlight in the Sibling was cleansed thanks to the anti-voidlight tone...so, yeah). In others, the tower wouldn't have been freed (see previous)making her captivity permanent.

Please point me to the myriad choices Navani had that would have still lead to an anti-Voidlight discovery, the enemy not getting that knowledge, the Sibling NOT being unmade, and the tower being freed. Whatever the negative consequences of the enemy getting anti-Stormlight, they would pale in comparison to the enemy unmaking the Sibling and holding the tower and the Oathgates.

Unless you're Lirin and believe that being controlled by the enemy is better than the risk of being killed.

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18 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Navani would have never developed anti-light without Raboniel or someone with similar knowledge. Navani made the final leap, but the chasm was made shorter by Raboniel's knowledge of how Light and sound worked together. I realize that one of the human nations had also been using sound to coax light out of gems and Navani was aware of it, but the leap from that to anti-Light required Raboniel's help.

I've gone through the entire sequence of Raboniel and Navani, and I don't see a point where Navani could have stepped away from the process yet still developed the anti-Light. In most cases, she would have been killed by Vyre, who was fended off by Raboniel and the anti-Voidlight tone (and, finally, the tower defenses after Navani bonded with the Sibling, which wouldn't have been possible if Navani didn't stay in the research area and successfully discover things that Raboniel wanted...oh and the Voidlight in the Sibling was cleansed thanks to the anti-voidlight tone...so, yeah). In others, the tower wouldn't have been freed (see previous)making her captivity permanent.

What about after warlight? She had the ideas here, what about not writting her discoveries down. You mean the voidlight that was given in much larger quantities due to Navani giving the fused the location of the node, and she wasnt working on it for that reason either  her motives were not altruistic they where selfish.

The tower was keen on bonding Rlaine, who like raboniel can hear the rhythms and together they could have made antivoid light after he bound the sibling. So the tower  ould have the supression freed this way, as thats all Navani did to helpf ree the tower, Kaladin did the rest, he gave people hope, he fought fo the fussed, he tried to save the radiants, Navani worked eoth Raboniel to further her own selfish desires.

18 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Please point me to the myriad choices Navani had that would have still lead to an anti-Voidlight discovery, the enemy not getting that knowledge, the Sibling NOT being unmade, and the tower being freed. Whatever the negative consequences of the enemy getting anti-Stormlight, they would pale in comparison to the enemy unmaking the Sibling and holding the tower and the Oathgates.

Stopping at warlight, even stopping before, Gavilar somehow managed it without a fused so its not like theyre requiered, she could also have worked with Rlaine or the Sibling, once they knew light could be combind she could have taken the same steps, and the siblings towerlight could give her that. (It wasnt the fused that told her about the frequencies it was the Azish(i think its azish but people in the alliance)).

 

Antivoidlight and unmaking the sibling are too different things, Navani helpped the fused in both yes, but they are seperate. As stated above she could have rediscovered (see Gavilar had antivoid light) antivoid light seperate from the fused. And by telling the fussed where the node was she almost single handedly gave them the sibling.

18 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Unless you're Lirin and believe that being controlled by the enemy is better than the risk of being killed.

Ummm you understand Navani worked with the enemy right? Navani took Lirins path, work wkth your enemy rather than resist. She devoped secrets for her enemy where she could have other wise refuse, could they have forced her, yes bring in her people and kill them until she does. Then i would have simpathy for her, but it didnt take that, it took promises of knowledge, odium tempted her and she welcomed it with open arms and gave him powerful knowledge and yet everyone seems to think she didnt do bad. If it had only been Navani, with no Kaladin, the tower would be lost, Odium would have anti light and she and all of her people would serving under Odium, her choices were selfish, which is the crux of my issue.

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8 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Ummm you understand Navani worked with the enemy right? Navani took Lirins path, work wkth your enemy rather than resist. She devoped secrets for her enemy where she could have other wise refuse, could they have forced her, yes bring in her people and kill them until she does. Then i would have simpathy for her, but it didnt take that, it took promises of knowledge, odium tempted her and she welcomed it with open arms and gave him powerful knowledge and yet everyone seems to think she didnt do bad. If it had only been Navani, with no Kaladin, the tower would be lost, Odium would have anti light and she and all of her people would serving under Odium, her choices were selfish, which is the crux of my issue.

If it had only been Kaladin, the Sibling would have been fully unmade, the tower would be held by Odium's forces, every Radiant in the tower would be as good as dead anyway. 

She definitely could have refused. She could have carried water and fomented some sort of resistance from there. Then Vyre comes in and there's no Raboniel or anti-voidlight tone to protect her. There's no bond with the Sibling to save the tower. So you're right. Brandon could have completely rewritten the story to have Navani succeed from some other place in some other way where Raboniel and Odium's forces don't get any access to anti-Stormlight. However, in this story, her going off to carry water would have resulted in Vyre killing her, Raboniel unmaking the Sibling, the enemy controlling the tower, and every Radiant within being as good as dead, anyway.

There was no point in the process where it was actually a good idea for Navani to leave Raboniel's side. There was no point in the process where Navani could have stopped developing things and/or hide them from Raboniel. She tried that on several occasions in several different ways. You didn't answer my challenge here, you simply restated the point that Navani gave things to the enemy when she didn't have to. The successful defense of the tower depended on Navani getting anti-Voidlight to clear the Voidlight from the Sibling, and getting and keeping Raboniel on her side. BTW: Raboniel could have unmade the Sibling at any time after finding the underwater node. She held off because Navani of Navani's work. Part of the reason Navani kept working with Raboniel was to keep Raboniel on her side. Raboniel wouldn't have gotten the developments from Navani had she destroyed the Sibling and rendered the defense of the tower useless.

There was no way out for Navani and the tower. None. Raboniel held all of the cards the whole time. Navani did the best she could and implemented just enough safeguards and got just enough trust out of the Sibling to make it work out in the end. There really was no other way this could have went down that was better for the good guys.

The real question for the anti-Navani crowd here, I guess, is do the ends justify the means. Should Navani have let her tenuous hold on Raboniel go, stop her development of anything for fear the enemy gets it, because it was the right thing to do? Sure. That would have been the right thing to do. Everyone would have lost, but Navani would have done the right thing.

So you win. Navani made the wrong choice.

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