In light of the events of RoW, who will be the primary antagonist of Stormlight going forward?

[MasterGhandalf]

So, one of the biggest bombshells in the series so far came near the end of Rhythm of War; Rayse is out of the picture for good, and Taravangian has ascended to become the new Odium. I'll admit it took me surprise; I thought there was a decent chance Rayse would die before the end of the series (and Taravangian was on my shortlist for people likely to take up his Shard) but I didn't think it would happen until Stormlight Five at the earliest. Which does lead one to wonder - with the apparent 'big bad' of the series dead four books in, who will end up taking his place as the greatest threat to Roshar? I have some thoughts of my own, but I'm curious as to where the overall opinion of the fandom is leaning at this stage. 

[+Oltux72]

18 minutes ago, MasterGhandalf said:

Which does lead one to wonder - with the apparent 'big bad' of the series dead four books in, who will end up taking his place as the greatest threat to Roshar?

Therein we have the issue. Up to most recently, the biggest threat to Roshar and to the Cosmere were identical. That is no longer clear. And what is a threat? If Cultivation and Taravangian-Odium make a deal, will that be a threat to or salvation of Roshar?

[+Child of Hodor]

I recently started a topic on why I think Bavadin might get involved in the back 5. 

I do think Odium will play role through all 10 books though. I don't think Taravangian will last past book 5. He has serious grudges with Szeth and Dalinar. Those are the most interesting relationships he has, he should be killed (again) in the front 5 while those two are still main characters. 

I had a thought about what happens to Odium at the end of the front 5. Dalinar is deeply connected to Odium, he always has been. Odium comments in RoW on how connected they are when he pulls Dalinar into a vision outside of the Everstorm. When Dalinar visted the Valley the Nightwatcher called him "Child of Odium". In that same visit Cultivation took a piece of him saying something to the effect of "it will benefit me to have a piece of you". 

Dalinar is very Connected to Odium, Cultivation took a chunk of Dalinar for herself this presumably gives her some Connection to Odium. Could the two of them pull Odium apart and both absorb a piece? If Dalinar can Ascend to be the Vessel of a remnant of Honor then a Shard vessel could become the Vessel for a chunk of another Shard. 

The front 5 could end with 3 Shards held by two vessels  (Honor + Piece of Odium) and (Cultivation + Piece of Odium). This ends the immediate conflict, there is peace for the moment because Odium is no longer devoid of context and is split between other Shards, but this alters the existing Shards in way that might become a problem in say 10 - 15 years. Plus other Shards might have issue with this new situation and come for a visit. 

[Leuthie]

Odium was always presented as the big bad, but the problems our protagonists are facing are only peripherally related to Odium. The Desolations were always a fight between Singers and Humans. Odium used that fight and escalated it with Honor's full cooperation to the point that the fight itself did more to shape Roshar than any natural or Shardic process.

I get the feeling that Cultivation started out helping her partner Honor in this fight. However, the fight would make it extremely difficult to pursue her Intent, especially when the Desolations were coming back so frequently that both Humans and Singers were only digressing with each one. She probably pushed the Heralds to lay down arms and helped Taln fight off the torture to give Roshar breathing room to grow again. She knew that wouldn't last forever, so she created Mr. T, Dalinar and Lift and orchestrated a response to Odium that was less about fighting back and more about changing the game.

But she isn't an antagonist, either, and I don't expect her to be one. She doesn't really care about humans or Singers, and she'll "prune" anything or anyone to make sure Roshar can continue to grow and thrive. This might create antagonists for our heros to contest with, but it will be peripheral to the real fight: the long time enmity between the Singers and Humans on Roshar. Solve that and there's no more fight.

[Blacksmithki]

I think that Odium represents the biggest direct threat within this series, but is not neccessaraly the most dangerous antagonist.

It's quite possible that cultivation has a whole plot of her own, or some other shard also comes to interfere, or the ghostbloods gain a terrifying amount of power.

Also, we don't know what truly caused the recreance, it could be something else terrifying.

So I think that Odium represents the biggest threat that the protagonists face, but there's a solid chance that Cultivation or someone else represents a bigger actual threat that we may not know about until something very bad happens.

[+Oltux72]

25 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

I get the feeling that Cultivation started out helping her partner Honor in this fight. However, the fight would make it extremely difficult to pursue her Intent, especially when the Desolations were coming back so frequently that both Humans and Singers were only digressing with each one. She probably pushed the Heralds to lay down arms and helped Taln fight off the torture to give Roshar breathing room to grow again. She knew that wouldn't last forever, so she created Mr. T, Dalinar and Lift and orchestrated a response to Odium that was less about fighting back and more about changing the game.

Plausible.

25 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

But she isn't an antagonist, either, and I don't expect her to be one.

To whom? Hoid and Harmony will be livid. Roshar would profit. Effectively Roshar has just switched sides.

25 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

She doesn't really care about humans or Singers, and she'll "prune" anything or anyone to make sure Roshar can continue to grow and thrive. This might create antagonists for our heros to contest with, but it will be peripheral to the real fight: the long time enmity between the Singers and Humans on Roshar. Solve that and there's no more fight.

Ehm. She is releasing Odium. The rest of the Cosmere won't be happy.

 

[Leuthie]

32 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Plausible.

To whom? Hoid and Harmony will be livid. Roshar would profit. Effectively Roshar has just switched sides.

Ehm. She is releasing Odium. The rest of the Cosmere won't be happy.

 

The question wasn't about an antagonist to the Cosmere.

Besides, she isn't releasing Odium. If she wanted to release Odium, she wouldn't have had the Vessel killed and replaced with a RESIDENT OF ROSHAR. Rayse would have left. Mr. T ain't going nowhere.

[+Child of Hodor]

29 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

Also, we don't know what truly caused the recreance, it could be something else terrifying.

Don't we though? After Oathbringer we knew Surges + Dawnshards = UH OH!!!

We learned in OB Honor raved to the radiants that their powers coupled with Dawnshards destroyed Ashyn and would destroy Roshar.   We learned in RoW that before the Recreance happened the Sibling was fed up with humanity and banished them from Urithiru. After the Sibling "withdrew" but before the Recreance the Radiants performed a strike on Ba-Ado-Mishram trying to capture her. It worked and an unintended side-effect was the Singers were magically lobotomized. 

Radiants were horrified by this result, their Tower had kicked them out, their god raved that they were going to destroy Roshar like they did Ashyn, so they gave up their powers. This book confirmed a popular theory that the radiant spren were in on the Recreance it was not done against their will. This book confirmed Ba-Ado-Mishram was trapped. We have a good idea how since we saw an Unmade get trapped in OB. It was probably harder than trapping the Thrill since Ba-Ado-Mishram isn't dumb, but they probably had Melishi the Sibling bondsmith trap her in a perfect gem. She was bonded to all those Singers and when that connection was broken their spiritwebs were broken in a way that hurt their cognitive abilities. 

Similar to what happened to the Spren when their connection to their Radiants was severed. 

[Blacksmithki]

7 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Don't we though? After Oathbringer we knew Surges + Dawnshards = UH OH!!!

We learned in OB Honor raved to the radiants that their powers coupled with Dawnshards destroyed Ashyn and would destroy Roshar.   We learned in RoW that before the Recreance happened the Sibling was fed up with humanity and banished them from Urithiru. After the Sibling "withdrew" but before the Recreance the Radiants performed a strike on Ba-Ado-Mishram trying to capture her. It worked and an unintended side-effect was the Singers were magically lobotomized. 

Radiants were horrified by this result, their Tower had kicked them out, their god raved that they were going to destroy Roshar like they did Ashyn, so they gave up their powers. This book confirmed a popular theory that the radiant spren were in on the Recreance it was not done against their will. This book confirmed Ba-Ado-Mishram was trapped. We have a good idea how since we saw an Unmade get trapped in OB. It was probably harder than trapping the Thrill since Ba-Ado-Mishram isn't dumb, but they probably had Melishi the Sibling bondsmith trap her in a perfect gem. She was bonded to all those Singers and when that connection was broken their spiritwebs were broken in a way that hurt their cognitive abilities. 

Similar to what happened to the Spren when their connection to their Radiants was severed. 

The trouble is, it seems like something like that would have caused massive numbers of people to break their oaths, but not a coordinated abandonment by every single radiant.

I mean it could be, but it feels too organized and complete to just be people worried about destroying the world. Surely some people would stubbornly hold on thinking they were above that or something?

Also yes the vast majority of radians would have been horrified at what happened to the singers, but we know some Elsecallers would be fine adopting an 'ends justify the means' morality, so there would have been some willing to see this terrible event as a means of ending a massive war that threatened the extinction of both the singers and the humans.

Edited November 20, 2020 by Blacksmithki

[scm288]

I find it very likely that the Lord of Scars is going to start getting very involved on Roshar. Remember that the question here is not just the primary antagonist of the first five volumes, but of the Stormlight Archive as a whole.

Brandon has told us that he intends to write Mistborn Era 3 during the gap between the two halves. I don't think that's without significance. Mistborn is going to hit modernity, and with it, modern science and technology. We're already seeing commodification of Allomancy and Feruchemy on Scadrial. We're seeing overt attempts on Roshar by the Ghostbloods to engineer means to sever Connection and transport Investiture across the Cosmere. I highly suspect that, at some point in the next few books, we are going to see Kelsier unleashed from Scadrial.

And if there's one thing that Kelsier hates, it is power.

A planet with multiple warring deities vying for power is like a giant flashing target for Kelsier. Nobilities to pull down, corruption to cleanse, and powers in turmoil...

I think the war between the singers and the humans will reach its conclusion in Book 5. I suspect that Books 6 through 10 will feature a Scadrian invasion.

[Leuthie]

It's pretty clear the capturing of BAM, which stripped the Singers of their Connection among other issues that are only hinted at, was a big instigator of the Recreance, as well. If the Radiants and spren at the time KNEW they severely compromised the Connection or even Identity of the entire world with one act, that would prompt a huge push to put the power down. There are hinted at consequences of capturing BAM that are probably severe enough to make the destruction of Roshar perilously close.

At this point I think it's pretty clear that there was a list of issues happening that made the Radiants and their spren at the time convinced that a much bigger tragedy caused by Surges was building.

[Kingsdaughter613]

24 minutes ago, scm288 said:

I find it very likely that the Lord of Scars is going to start getting very involved on Roshar. Remember that the question here is not just the primary antagonist of the first five volumes, but of the Stormlight Archive as a whole.

Brandon has told us that he intends to write Mistborn Era 3 during the gap between the two halves. I don't think that's without significance. Mistborn is going to hit modernity, and with it, modern science and technology. We're already seeing commodification of Allomancy and Feruchemy on Scadrial. We're seeing overt attempts on Roshar by the Ghostbloods to engineer means to sever Connection and transport Investiture across the Cosmere. I highly suspect that, at some point in the next few books, we are going to see Kelsier unleashed from Scadrial.

And if there's one thing that Kelsier hates, it is power.

A planet with multiple warring deities vying for power is like a giant flashing target for Kelsier. Nobilities to pull down, corruption to cleanse, and powers in turmoil...

I think the war between the singers and the humans will reach its conclusion in Book 5. I suspect that Books 6 through 10 will feature a Scadrian invasion.

Era 2 takes place in the time gap, so that’s highly unlikely. But Kell showing up in the back five is a distinct possibility.

[TiaOmi]

I think we'll have a new villain. I keep thinking how there's always another layer to Brandon's stories, and a sort of slight of hand to position an unexpected new antagonist.

Spoiler

In Elentris we thought Hrathen was bad, until Dilaf.

In Mistborn we thought Lord Ruler, until Ruin.

Now at this moment Odium (regardless of Vessel) is the Big Bad, but I can't stop thinking, is this too obvious? So I believe we'll see a new villain arise, and I hope it will be as shocking and amazing as in all Brandon's books.

[IcaroRibeiro]

Taravandium 

[Zelly]

I think it's going to less Beating the Big Bad and end up being more Apocalypse Now.

We keep learning more about how powers are suppose to have checks and balances.......and how we should be worried that a lot of powers don't have them.  I things are going to end up with some chain reaction that threatens the fabric of reality or something.  Lot o them crazy unbound bondsmiths running around....

[MasterGhandalf]

Having given other people time to respond, I just wanted to throw my own hat into the ring and say I think Taravangian/Odium feels like the most likely candidate for me; both T himself and the Shard Odium have been given enough buildup that the combination of them feels truly frightening, and he feels very well positioned to not only pick up on but also improve on Rayse's pre-existing schemes. That said, I could definitely see it ending up being Cultivation as well, depending on what her actual endgame turns out to be, and I certainly wouldn't rule out one of the other people I mentioned managing to pull off an upset, or the second arc having a different main antagonist than the first. 

I'd also say that I've been thinking for some time that Bavadin/Autonomy may end up being the true big bad of the Cosmere as a whole (assuming it has one, and that it's someone we've heard of) and Rayse's death makes that feel even more likely, but that's a different (albeit related) question. 

[ftl]

Book 5 antagonist is definitely Toadium.

I think books 6-10 will have a new antagonist with a new arc. It'll be a reset, a new conflict, not just a continuation of the current one. If the old conflicts continued, we'd have to spend a lot of time on the current protagonists - what they're doing in the back five books, what they feel about their enemies, etc etc. But a new conflict lets our current crew retire (the ones that survive) and be background, while new characters take the lead.

[Aminar]

I don't think there will be one. Not one big all defining one at least. The back half may develop one. Potentially Thaidakar. But I think the next book will be more about setting broken things right than about defeating a central antagonist. I

I think everyone's overreacting to Taravangian's ascenscion. My guess is that the contest of Champions will be a minor footnote early in the book. Possibly the climax of part one. Instead we're going to have the Singer War to wrap up. The Fused to lay to rest. Several Unmade to contain or remake. Healing the wound the Recreance and Mishram's trapping caused. Whatever the hell is going on in Shinovar and with Ishar. And several other issues. And they probably shouldn't end in a big battle. Because genocide isn't the answer to the Singer war. And we're getting an age of legends after this.

RoW did a great job of showing how Odium, specifically Odium as Rayse, was what made the war with the Singers neverending. Rayse needed to control too much. And he felt the best way to be ready for the Shardwar was to make highly militirized societies shaped by battle. I suspect Travangian will see things differently. Certainly in the short term. Not that he'll be perfect, but the groundwork is laid to set him aside for a long time early on.

I think Cultivation is shiftier than we've thought. She's probably the we in Odium's "No. We killed you." at the end of Oathbringer. She's definitely angling for a different approach to the Shardwar. Pruning and aloowing for a flourishing technological civilization. So I doubt she'll be the major antagonist. She's shifty, but in a way where she'll be bringing the best out of people. That said, it's possible that Renarin's futuresight is being guided by Cultivation towards her ends, but I think he Doctor Stranged the best way to fix the Odium problem and went for it. 

[Dawnshard]

I think Cultivation wanted Odium replaced so she can work with another Shard. It was the Vessel that was giving her problems. Due to how much mixing of the magic systems in this book we saw, I think all 3 Shards will be destroyed and recombined into new Shards. Cultivation is doing this to make the Planet more powerful to fight the war of the Shards that is coming. Taravagian will help her in this regard. 

[KidWayne]

Anyone think humans will leave Roshar in Book 5 and return in Book 6? I mean #5 is supposed to be set in Shinovar...

[NameIess]

Oh shoot. What if 6-10 are about the beginning of a war with Scadrial, which then continues into the Mistborn era 3 ad beyond? 

(Spoilers for the sixth of the dusk sequel reading)

Spoiler

That could lead to the aggression and dishonorable behavior we see from both Scadrial and Roshar.

 

[Mason Wheeler]

On 11/20/2020 at 10:07 AM, Oltux72 said:

Therein we have the issue. Up to most recently, the biggest threat to Roshar and to the Cosmere were identical. That is no longer clear.

Isn't it?  Brandon has essentially made Taravangian into Satan, and he's made it pretty clear that he intends to use his power to affect the entire Cosmere.

[+Oltux72]

3 minutes ago, Mason Wheeler said:

Isn't it?  Brandon has essentially made Taravangian into Satan, and he's made it pretty clear that he intends to use his power to affect the entire Cosmere.

This is true. But it misses many points.

Rayse-Odium was a natural force of slaughter and destruction towards humans. Surrender was impractically costly. Negotiation was futile. They were standing with their backs towards a wall. Lifeboat politics ruled. A valiant last stand. It makes for great sagas to be sung around a camp fire as the descendants of the few survivors learn to smelt copper again, even if you win. For the people actually living under such circumstances it is horrible, just because living is what a great number of them will cease to do.

Cultivation has concluded a plan that gives the people of Roshar a real chance. Yet it means that they have to abandon the moral clarity they have experienced. They are back to having multiple parties with clashing interests. The new world refuses to be reduced to good and evil or right and wrong. Among other things it rewards a traitor.
Politics is back and in the future you will not just ask "is this good or bad", but "for whom is this good or bad".

In particular we now have a conflict between those who want to sacrifice Roshar for the greater good and the Rosharans.