Isshar's Experiment

[LiquidBlue]

Isshar's experiments are pretty disturbing, and it isn't quite clear what he trying to accomplish by making bodies for spren. However, perhaps making bodies for spren isn't his goal. Maybe he wants to crack the general problem of making bodies for cognitive beings. He is clearly motivated to do so -- he himself being a cognitive being.

A short post, but that is my theory for why he is doing this. He wants to be learn how to create bodies for cognitive beings, the ultimate goal being to make a body for himself and no longer be bound to Roshar.

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, LiquidBlue said:

Isshar's experiments are pretty disturbing, and it isn't quite clear what he trying to accomplish by making bodies for spren. However, perhaps making bodies for spren isn't his goal. Maybe he wants to crack the general problem of making bodies for cognitive beings. He is clearly motivated to do so -- he himself being a cognitive being.

A short post, but that is my theory for why he is doing this. He wants to be learn how to create bodies for cognitive beings, the ultimate goal being to make a body for himself and no longer be bound to Roshar.

I like this angle. What's disturbing is... What is he doing to do this, and why are the spren dying? And apparently really dying. Not just "returning to the CR".

We'll have found not one but two ways for spren to die in RoW - anti-Stormlight daggers (or anti-Voidlight, I guess, for Voidspren), and whatever Tezim was doing with them.

And the discovery that honorspren seem to form the most human-like organs and muscles, to have survived "as long as fifteen minutes", and more are needed for further investigation... Yeesh. Clearly what the Tukari squad going after an isolated Notum were after.

Would forming a Nahel Bond to the Physical Realm protect them from whatever Tezim is doing? Or would it actually make them more viable, because they're already Connected to the Physical Realm via their knight?

[EvilIndian]

Quote

I like this angle. What's disturbing is... What is he doing to do this, and why are the spren dying? And apparently really dying. Not just "returning to the CR".

My take on why they die die and don't just "return to the CR", is because to make them appear in the physical realm, in their CR bodies, he uses the Bondsmith honorblade to bind their CR bodies to the Physical Realm or something like that. The implications for that in my understanding would be, that since they are now spiritually connected to the physical realm and not the CR when they die there they die for real because as far as their spiritual web is concerned they don't have any connection to the CR. He literally takes their CR bodies, binds them to the physical realm instead of the CR and they obviously die shortly after because of the fact that their CR bodies are not sustainable in the physical realms because they weren't meant to be. 

This is my interpretation of that, and obviously isn't confirmed in anyway, but I think overall it lines up pretty well with what we see and know of Realmatics. This would probably be one of the things where Honor in the past would have stepped in and stopped this kind of binding (since the Bondsmith honorblade was specifically mentioned as being "unrestrained" by Oaths, and Honor was the one to oversee the use of the Bondsmith honorblade in the past), I think in general this gives us a bit better idea of the true danger of uncontrolled Surgebindings that are referred to in Dawnshard.

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, EvilIndian said:

My take on why they die die and don't just "return to the CR", is because to make them appear in the physical realm, in their CR bodies, he uses the Bondsmith honorblade to bind their CR bodies to the Physical Realm or something like that. The implications for that in my understanding would be, that since they are now spiritually connected to the physical realm and not the CR when they die there they die for real because as far as their spiritual web is concerned they don't have any connection to the CR. He literally takes their CR bodies, binds them to the physical realm instead of the CR and they obviously die shortly after because of the fact that their CR bodies are not sustainable in the physical realms because they weren't meant to be. 

This is my interpretation of that, and obviously isn't confirmed in anyway, but I think overall it lines up pretty well with what we see and know of Realmatics. This would probably be one of the things where Honor in the past would have stepped in and stopped this kind of binding (since the Bondsmith honorblade was specifically mentioned as being "unrestrained" by Oaths, and Honor was the one to oversee the use of the Bondsmith honorblade in the past), I think in general this gives us a bit better idea of the true danger of uncontrolled Surgebindings that are referred to in Dawnshard.

I think a certain Scadrian would be very interested in these experiments. What happens if this is done to a human Spren, ie. Cognitive Shadow?

[feruchemicalrockband]

2 hours ago, EvilIndian said:

My take on why they die die and don't just "return to the CR", is because to make them appear in the physical realm, in their CR bodies, he uses the Bondsmith honorblade to bind their CR bodies to the Physical Realm or something like that. The implications for that in my understanding would be, that since they are now spiritually connected to the physical realm and not the CR when they die there they die for real because as far as their spiritual web is concerned they don't have any connection to the CR. He literally takes their CR bodies, binds them to the physical realm instead of the CR and they obviously die shortly after because of the fact that their CR bodies are not sustainable in the physical realms because they weren't meant to be. 

This is my interpretation of that, and obviously isn't confirmed in anyway, but I think overall it lines up pretty well with what we see and know of Realmatics. This would probably be one of the things where Honor in the past would have stepped in and stopped this kind of binding (since the Bondsmith honorblade was specifically mentioned as being "unrestrained" by Oaths, and Honor was the one to oversee the use of the Bondsmith honorblade in the past), I think in general this gives us a bit better idea of the true danger of uncontrolled Surgebindings that are referred to in Dawnshard.

This is making me really scared for Kal and Syl. Seeing as in the next book they'll be traveling with Szeth and Nightblood (and maybe others) to cleanse Shinovar and find Ishar, and how Ishar has already discovered that honorspren are the closest to being able to live in the physical realm in their cognitive forms, he's probably gonna do something to Syl. Syl has also been in the physical realm for a long time and is the most connected of all the honorspren in the physical realm.... This is gonna be bad.

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, EvilIndian said:

My take on why they die die and don't just "return to the CR", is because to make them appear in the physical realm, in their CR bodies, he uses the Bondsmith honorblade to bind their CR bodies to the Physical Realm or something like that. The implications for that in my understanding would be, that since they are now spiritually connected to the physical realm and not the CR when they die there they die for real because as far as their spiritual web is concerned they don't have any connection to the CR. He literally takes their CR bodies, binds them to the physical realm instead of the CR and they obviously die shortly after because of the fact that their CR bodies are not sustainable in the physical realms because they weren't meant to be. 

This is my interpretation of that, and obviously isn't confirmed in anyway, but I think overall it lines up pretty well with what we see and know of Realmatics. This would probably be one of the things where Honor in the past would have stepped in and stopped this kind of binding (since the Bondsmith honorblade was specifically mentioned as being "unrestrained" by Oaths, and Honor was the one to oversee the use of the Bondsmith honorblade in the past), I think in general this gives us a bit better idea of the true danger of uncontrolled Surgebindings that are referred to in Dawnshard.

This rings pretty true, but then, why is there mention in his notes about honorspren having the most human-equivalent organs and even so, only surviving for fifteen minutes? And is he doing this as a prelude to experimenting on himself, who would of course be fully human?

3 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think a certain Scadrian would be very interested in these experiments. What happens if this is done to a human Spren, ie. Cognitive Shadow?

Right, or a Herald. I mean, is this something that would be a prelude to allowing them to escape their binding to the Rosharan system?

Just wondering how experiments on Physical bodies for spren would carry over for something of interest to a Herald... And if it might occur to Tezim that hey, Nahel bonded Radiant spren already have a Connection to the Physical Realm. That seems like it would bode ill for our Radiant friends.

And after re-reading the short passage where a mad Experienced Bondsmith with an Honorblade does things, it truly is crazy. Not only binding Radiants to the earth to "ground out" their Stormlight, but full on stealing a spren bond to the Stormfather... And did I read that right, he could even steal Dalinar's right to challenge Odium (which was separate from his bond to the SF)?

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

This rings pretty true, but then, why is there mention in his notes about honorspren having the most human-equivalent organs and even so, only surviving for fifteen minutes? And is he doing this as a prelude to experimenting on himself, who would of course be fully human?

Right, or a Herald. I mean, is this something that would be a prelude to allowing them to escape their binding to the Rosharan system?

Just wondering how experiments on Physical bodies for spren would carry over for something of interest to a Herald... And if it might occur to Tezim that hey, Nahel bonded Radiant spren already have a Connection to the Physical Realm. That seems like it would bode ill for our Radiant friends.

And after re-reading the short passage where a mad Experienced Bondsmith with an Honorblade does things, it truly is crazy. Not only binding Radiants to the earth to "ground out" their Stormlight, but full on stealing a spren bond to the Stormfather... And did I read that right, he could even steal Dalinar's right to challenge Odium (which was separate from his bond to the SF)?

Someone needs to destroy that sword.

[EvilIndian]

Quote

This rings pretty true, but then, why is there mention in his notes about honorspren having the most human-equivalent organs and even so, only surviving for fifteen minutes? And is he doing this as a prelude to experimenting on himself, who would of course be fully human?

 

I think the reason the honorspren last longest but still die, is because of the fact that while they are the most human like on the exterior, that doesn’t necessary mean their inner working (organs etc.) are 1 to 1 with humans, I mean in the CS they would not need their body to function like humans, so therefore it makes sense to me at least why the honorspren still die off. Their bodies were not made to survive in the physical realm and therefore still may not have all the organs and inner functionalities that makes it possible to survive in the physical realm, and therefore they still die off, but last longer than others since they are the closest of the spren to a functioning body. This is purely theoretical of course, but in my mind it makes sense at least. 

Edit: afterthought, perhaps the problem is something completely different (shock, spiritual Mumbo-jumbo) who knows.

Edited November 20, 2020 by EvilIndian

[spitfireky]

20 minutes ago, EvilIndian said:

 

I think the reason the honorspren last longest but still die, is because of the fact that while they are the most human like on the exterior, that doesn’t necessary mean their inner working (organs etc.) are 1 to 1 with humans, I mean in the CS they would not need their body to function like humans, so therefore it makes sense to me at least why the honorspren still die off. Their bodies were not made to survive in the physical realm and therefore still may not have all the organs and inner functionalities that makes it possible to survive in the physical realm, and therefore they still die off, but last longer than others since they are the closest of the spren to a functioning body. This is purely theoretical of course, but in my mind it makes sense at least. 

Edit: afterthought, perhaps the problem is something completely different (shock, spiritual Mumbo-jumbo) who knows.

There's also a part in one of Adolin's chapters in Shadesmar that says while honorspren don't need to breathe in the Cognitive Realm, they gasp for shock value, or something like that. So it could be theorized that they don't have lungs, which are necessary for Physical Realm-based beings to have.

[silver-the-ridgerunner]

11 hours ago, LiquidBlue said:

Isshar's experiments are pretty disturbing

They are like the evolution of Taravangian's chasing of the death-rattles. Has this Herald spent too long on Braize - or perhaps, could he be turned that way?

Conversely, shall Odium seek to tempt The Mother Of Machines with knowledge?

[LiftIRL]

On 11/20/2020 at 8:54 PM, EvilIndian said:

 

I think the reason the honorspren last longest but still die, is because of the fact that while they are the most human like on the exterior, that doesn’t necessary mean their inner working (organs etc.) are 1 to 1 with humans, I mean in the CS they would not need their body to function like humans, so therefore it makes sense to me at least why the honorspren still die off. Their bodies were not made to survive in the physical realm and therefore still may not have all the organs and inner functionalities that makes it possible to survive in the physical realm, and therefore they still die off, but last longer than others since they are the closest of the spren to a functioning body. This is purely theoretical of course, but in my mind it makes sense at least. 

Edit: afterthought, perhaps the problem is something completely different (shock, spiritual Mumbo-jumbo) who knows.

No, I think it's like you said- Their bodies look humanoid enough to vaguely function, but they don't really bother with manifesting things like accurate kidneys and whatnot. think about it like animating a doll- one that looks like a cryptic, solid body and swirly head, would do terribly as a meat-creature, while honorspren would do best.

it raises a question- if you got a spren who was informed and consenting to this process beforehand, and given them time to play around with their form in shadesmar- as we know honorspren can change their form- would they be able to make the necesarry changes and survive the transference? 

[NysemePtem]

On 11/20/2020 at 9:17 AM, EvilIndian said:

My take on why they die die and don't just "return to the CR", is because to make them appear in the physical realm, in their CR bodies, he uses the Bondsmith honorblade to bind their CR bodies to the Physical Realm or something like that. The implications for that in my understanding would be, that since they are now spiritually connected to the physical realm and not the CR when they die there they die for real because as far as their spiritual web is concerned they don't have any connection to the CR. He literally takes their CR bodies, binds them to the physical realm instead of the CR and they obviously die shortly after because of the fact that their CR bodies are not sustainable in the physical realms because they weren't meant to be. 

This is my interpretation of that, and obviously isn't confirmed in anyway, but I think overall it lines up pretty well with what we see and know of Realmatics. This would probably be one of the things where Honor in the past would have stepped in and stopped this kind of binding (since the Bondsmith honorblade was specifically mentioned as being "unrestrained" by Oaths, and Honor was the one to oversee the use of the Bondsmith honorblade in the past), I think in general this gives us a bit better idea of the true danger of uncontrolled Surgebindings that are referred to in Dawnshard.

I think you're mostly right, except for the fact that Spren can be connected to the Physical Realm. I think if Ishar just connected Spren to the PR, they would just take on the forms bonded Spren do. I think there must be different kinds of connection, even to your realm. For example, humans have one kind of connection to the PR and a different to the CR, while Spren have a connection to the CR different from a human's. I think Ishar didn't just give Spren connections to the PR ,but gave them the same kind of Connection that humans have to the PR. This, to me, is what would induce their complete physical transfer to the PR including the construction of bodies.

I wonder what these Spren looked like in Shadesmar before they died.

[EvilIndian]

Quote

I think you're mostly right, except for the fact that Spren can be connected to the Physical Realm. I think if Ishar just connected Spren to the PR, they would just take on the forms bonded Spren do. I think there must be different kinds of connection, even to your realm. For example, humans have one kind of connection to the PR and a different to the CR, while Spren have a connection to the CR different from a human's. I think Ishar didn't just give Spren connections to the PR ,but gave them the same kind of Connection that humans have to the PR. This, to me, is what would induce their complete physical transfer to the PR including the construction of bodies.

I wonder what these Spren looked like in Shadesmar before they died.

 

Yeah, I think your reasoning in that part is correct, I think that was what I was trying to say, but I may not have been as precise as you were. 

Bottomline is that I’m on your page on that matter

Side note: my guess is that if one of Ishars test spren would survive they would not be able to bond a person, but they might be able to bond a normal “radiant spren”. But that’s just a gut feeling 
 

also to answer your question, my guess is the “test spren” would look like a human does in the cr.