Possible origins of the Unmade [Discuss]

[+Ptolema]

Since I keep seeing theories about just how Connected to Roshar and spren Ba-Ado-Mishram might have been, and Raboniel's injection of Voidlight was explicitly called an attempt an Unmaking the Sibling, I can't help but wonder if not just Ba-Ado-Mishram but several (if not all) of the Unmade could just have been powerful spren of another source (perhaps of Honor like the Stormfather, of Cultivation like the Nightwatcher, or a combination like the Sibling, or anything else, basically).

Possible points for the theory

Given the persistence of the term, it seems "unmaking" is a specific thing. Sja-anat warns the spren she sends away on her interlude that Odium will see them and try to unmake them. She says she was "unmade", like how later in the book "unmaking" is basically used as a verb.

Also from Sja-anat's interlude:

Quote

If Odium caught her in a verifiable lie, he would unmake her again. Steal her memory. Rip her to pieces. [...]

Although this conclusion requires certain assumptions, I'm interpreting Sja-anat's PoV as an implication that Odium "unmaking" spren basically tears them apart in one way or another without actually destroying them. Re-purposing them? And Sja-anat with her, ahem, "enlightening" of spren seems to think her own corruption of spren is alright, while also being acknowledging she could be unmade again, and even if she was kind of sacrificing that spren in the interlude, her warning does seem to point towards unmaking being a thing that could affect more than just spren of Odium, because Sja-anat's spren, even corrupted, must have been other types of spren beforehand.

There's what Raboniel says when injecting the Voidlight.

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[...]"You shall not awake, at least not as yourself."

And how she describes it.

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"I'm not killing the Sibling," Raboniel said. "I'm... doing something worse. I'm unmaking the Sibling."

Not to mention part of the Sibling's own words about it when they tell Navani "they are killing me" and Navani tries to tell them that spren can't die.

Quote

[...] "Gods can die... Fused can... can die... Spren can... die. If I am made into someone else, that is death. It is dark." [...]

There are other quotes on it, but basically, the possibility of the Sibling being Unmade wouldn't have just been akin to killing them, it would have been worse, but most noteworthy, the part about "made into someone else".

What if the Unmade are literally just former strong spren (perhaps even on the level of the current Bondsmith spren) who were each unmade into "someone else"?

One of the silly aspects that made me want to look into that is the naming theme of the Bondsmith spren. They don't exactly have names as human characters or even spren like Syl do, as much as their names appear to just represent who they are. The Stormfather. The Nightwatcher. The Sibling.

Some of the Unmade, like Ba-Ado-Mishram, aren't described by a title like that, but others are. Ashertmarn is the Heart of the Revel. Chemoarish is the Dustmother. Dai-gonarthis is the Black Fisher. Re-Shepir is the Midnight Mother, or Spawning Mother, and Yelig-nar is Blightwind. And of course, there's Sja-anat, who's also the only Unmade we've seen the point of view of at all, and she clearly seems to see the whole Taker of Secrets thing as an integral part of herself. Some of those names could be interpreted as negative, sure, but probably not any more negative than the Nightwatcher's actions and appearance, and the Nightwatcher is a Bondsmith spren.

Do the names prove anything? Admittedly, no. But they're interesting nevertheless, really. They imply the Unmade are forces of something.

Now an actual serious argument: If the assumption that Yelig-nar grants all Ten Surges is correct, what I feel may be the most compelling argument in favor of the Unmade having been other spren is that the Fused only have nine surges, so in theory the same should apply to spren of Odium.

Quote

"That is human talk," Raboniel said to Derision. "They claim a tenth, of Honor alone. Adhesion is not a true Surge, but a lie that was presented to us as one.[...]"

But they say Yelig-nar can provide all 10 surges, no? Why would a spren exclusively of Odium be capable of that, if Adhesion is "not a true Surge", just related to Honor?

Now, the Epigraph on Chapter 95 of Oathbringer admittedly just says "all Surges" in relation to Yelig-nar without directly stating a number. Reviewing Kaladin's fight with Amaram, I reckon we see Amaram use Cohesion, Abrasion, Gravitation, and possibly Division, at the very least.

I didn't actually manage to find anything outright stating that Yelig-nar can grant Adhesion, so I suppose that point could fall apart if the "grants all 10 surges" detail is just an assumption, but I believe circumstantial evidence in general, especially the topic of Raboniel trying to unmake the Sibling, does seem to strongly points towards the possibility of at least some of the Unmade having been normal spren before.

Possible points against the theory

As much as I believe the Unmade could be former normal spren, I do have some doubts given how some pieces don't entirely fit.

There's Sja-anat's own words in her interlude.

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[...] For she had come from him. Unmade by his hand.

She does outright say came from Odium, despite immediately using "Unmade" kind of as a verb again.

There's also this old WoB

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WeiryWriter

Are the Unmade Splinters of Odium?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Good guess.

/r/books AMA 2015 (March 12, 2015)

-

So, taking all into account... Thoughts?

Edited November 23, 2020 by Ptolema
Clarity

[Alcatur]

I think  they may have slightly different origins. 

Ba Ado Mishram appears to be the most interesting case. She may be be linked to the following elements:

-granting the Parshmen forms of power - obvious

-immediate lobotomy of Parshmen upon her imprisonment

-deadeyes - we know that it is a phenomena that appeared only after the Recreance. Is further supported to be a new thing by Maya (pain, not death was expected) imprisonment was perhaps the most obvious thing that changed. 

-strange weather pattern at the end of False Desolation (Dalinar notes this in his vision). This may be related to Stormfather being maybe out?

-finally we have Kalak opinion that she has to be released or it is dangerous for Roshar in general.- For I believe that in confining her, we have caused a greater wound to Roshar than any ever realized.

 

Also, the following is a pure conjecture, but there is a widespread belief that Spren shouldn't change, while we have a contrasted view of them in series as very human-like and, well, changing. I wonder if this may be linked to BAM imprisonment - basically it resulted in Spren becoming less stable, less primal (would fit Kelek opinion on effects of holding BAM imprisoned, he did write it while in Lasting Integrity).

Additionally, one of the visions in RoW shows Dawnsingers bonded with spren, clearly long before Odium and the Arrival of Humans.

 

I would guess that Ba Ado Mishram was indeed linked somehow to the surge of Adhesion, granting connection and Roshar in general, as something more primal. She appears to be too crucial for everyone to be just a splinter of Odium. Maybe she was some important, some primal Roshar-spren -, not of Odium. When the fighting started, she was co-opted unmade by Odium and merged with a splinter of Odium  - maybe she was against the humans arriving. or Ishar and Jezerezeh fighting Singers angered her? 

Edited November 20, 2020 by Alcatur

[Catladyman]

I think the info we have on Ba-Ado-Mishram supports your theory. Especially the epigraph from Chapter 97:

Quote

As one who has suffered for so many centuries ... as one whom it broke ... please find Mishram and release her. Not just for her own good. For the good of all Spren.

For I believe that in confining her, we have caused a greater wound to Roshar than any ever realized.

When I first read this, I saw it as confirmation that the Unmade were originally normal (probably Cusicesh-level?) spren, and before her Unmaking, BAM was just Mishram. Now I'm second-guessing that, and wondering if Kelek was just shortening her name in his journal..

But I definitely support this theory! Mishram could possibly be a spren of Connection? 

[TiaOmi]

I think the Unmade didn't originate with Odium. My personal pet theory after reading ROW is that the Unmade where already present on Roshar, connected or grew out of the nine surges, before Honor and Cultivation appeared at all. I think before Odium unmade them to serve him, they were Investiture that "was left lying around" and grew consciousness according to the dawnsingers view of Roshar, unaligned with any Shard or its Intent. With the appereance of Odium and the switch of allegiance, where the dawnsingers sided with Odium, their spren were unmade by him, basically recreating them as splinters and making them his from that moment on.

So for example, if BAM was the Connection of Roshar, unmade by Odium, disturbing this basic surge to imprison her could have consequences for all, not just the singers (especially with Honor gone). It could possibly influence all connection of Roshar, and explain why the bond between Knight and spren causes events like deadeyes from that moment on, something they did not expect.

 

[+Ptolema]

15 hours ago, TiaOmi said:

I think the Unmade didn't originate with Odium. My personal pet theory after reading ROW is that the Unmade where already present on Roshar, connected or grew out of the nine surges, before Honor and Cultivation appeared at all. I think before Odium unmade them to serve him, they were Investiture that "was left lying around" and grew consciousness according to the dawnsingers view of Roshar, unaligned with any Shard or its Intent. With the appereance of Odium and the switch of allegiance, where the dawnsingers sided with Odium, their spren were unmade by him, basically recreating them as splinters and making them his from that moment on.

So for example, if BAM was the Connection of Roshar, unmade by Odium, disturbing this basic surge to imprison her could have consequences for all, not just the singers (especially with Honor gone). It could possibly influence all connection of Roshar, and explain why the bond between Knight and spren causes events like deadeyes from that moment on, something they did not expect.

 

I think you're probably right, though no idea whose they could have been originally. Considering it turns out it wasn't just the Singers who were affected by Ba-Ado-Mishram being trapped, I wonder whether any of the spren other than the Sibling are aware of something being wrong. The Sibling seems to clearly consider that day to have been the day the tower stopped working, and says it affected "all souls who belong to Roshar". Navani actually asks them why no spren had mentioned it and the Sibling doesn't know. If Ba-Ado-Mishram's capture was so bad, shouldn't the other spren have noticed that? Though current spren also weren't aware of the deadeyes' involvement in Recreance, so maybe they're just ignorant towards the fact that things were supposed to be different.

I wonder if the Sibling turning away from the humans had anything to do with Melishi's binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram. Melishi was the Sibling's Bondsmith, and yet the Sibling refers to that binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram as a "terrible act". I know the Sibling also calls Navani a slaver for her work on fabrials and trapping spren in general, but the Sibling is stated to have been created to fight against Odium, so doesn't make much sense that they would oppose the binding of an Unmade unless for one reason or another they wholly believed that act was legitimately a bad one.

[TiaOmi]

37 minutes ago, Ptolema said:

I think you're probably right, though no idea whose they could have been originally. 

I remember reading something about the three moons of Roshar being significant in some way - blue for Honor, green for Cultivation, and purple for... not Odium. Odium is red-gold, not purple. We did see some violet-purple colour here and there, maybe whoever the Shard is with this colour is also someone who was involved on Roshar, and left?

[HorneaterStew]

So if the Sibling could be corrupted/unmade by infusing it with voidlight, could one of the unmade be uncorrupted/remade by infusing it with Storm/Life-light?

[+Ptolema]

3 hours ago, HorneaterStew said:

So if the Sibling could be corrupted/unmade by infusing it with voidlight, could one of the unmade be uncorrupted/remade by infusing it with Storm/Life-light?

I feel like "uncorrupting" would require removing the Voidlight, maybe, like how Navani vented the Voidlight out of the Sibling. That said, the process was stopped before the Sibling actually got unmade, so we really don't know if it's a reversible process at all once it's complete. Sja-anat's interlude and the Siblings fears make it sound like Unmaking breaks the spren's mind/memories. If a full unmaking would make the spren work just on Voidlight, then Life/Stormlight would basically be the equivalent of a corruption of injected, but if a part of them remains as it originally was, then no idea. I really hope we get to see more on how the mixing of Lights affects spren in the future, really.

[NysemePtem]

Well, Spren are sentient Investiture. I think it makes sense that changing which kind of Investiture a Spren is made from would change the nature of that Spren, even to the point of making it forget who it used to be. 

Interestingly, Sja Anat seems to do somewhat similar to lesser (and now Radiant) Spren. I wonder if the affinity between her power and what Odium did to her allows her to understand it better and resist it the way she is.

Personal note: I had always assumed that the Unmade were one entity, and the Unmaking was Odium splitting his Godspren into 9 lesser Spren for unknown reasons.

[redshadow310]

I figure most if not all of the unmade are spren that date back to the Dawnsingers, and have been around much longer than Odium. 

We know that perception is what coalesces a spren into being from raw Investiture. Some of the Unmade are mere forces while others have agency. Perhaps Nergoul was a spren of love that becomes a spren of hate. Ashertmarn, Heart of the Revel, was perhaps a spren of the Harvest that corrupted became a force of gluttony. 

Sja Anat was perhaps a spren of free will, which was what has protected her somewhat from the corruption of Odium. She speaks of enlightening the spren she touches. What if before becoming Unmade, her and Bo-ado-mishram together or separately had ability to grant lesser spren the ability to grow and evolve higher order spren? For example Windspren into Honorspren.

I think reversing the corruption, if even necessary will be more about perception than about Light. Belief that Sja Anat is a force of Honor rather than a force of Odium will go a long way in my opinion. 

[+Ptolema]

4 hours ago, redshadow310 said:

We know that perception is what coalesces a spren into being from raw Investiture. Some of the Unmade are mere forces while others have agency. Perhaps Nergoul was a spren of love that becomes a spren of hate. Ashertmarn, Heart of the Revel, was perhaps a spren of the Harvest that corrupted became a force of gluttony. 

Sja Anat was perhaps a spren of free will, which was what has protected her somewhat from the corruption of Odium. She speaks of enlightening the spren she touches. What if before becoming Unmade, her and Bo-ado-mishram together or separately had ability to grant lesser spren the ability to grow and evolve higher order spren? For example Windspren into Honorspren.

I think several of the Unmade like Sja-anat, at least in terms of how they are described, might have been the parents or otherwise leading force of some lesser spren, originally. Like how the Stormfather is to the Honorspren that were his children. Way too many of the Unmade have that "mother" attribute attached to them for it to be a coincidence. Sja-anat is the prime example in how her enlightened spren act towards her, but Re-Shephir is also called the Midnight Mother or the Spawning Mother, and supposedly Chemoarish is the Dustmother.

Ba-Ado-Mishram may have related to some larger-scope aspect of Connection in Roshar itself. The Sibling is (presumably) younger than the Unmade because Raboniel says they were made to fight against Odium, and yet the Sibling says the binding of Ba-Ado-Mishram affected not only them, but all spren. Whatever Ba-Ado-Mishram was or is, had to be important enough to affect everything on Roshar regardless of their origin or relation.

[CogitoErgoArclo]

On 11/20/2020 at 7:05 AM, TiaOmi said:

I think the Unmade didn't originate with Odium. My personal pet theory after reading ROW is that the Unmade where already present on Roshar, connected or grew out of the nine surges, before Honor and Cultivation appeared at all. I think before Odium unmade them to serve him, they were Investiture that "was left lying around" and grew consciousness according to the dawnsingers view of Roshar, unaligned with any Shard or its Intent. With the appereance of Odium and the switch of allegiance, where the dawnsingers sided with Odium, their spren were unmade by him, basically recreating them as splinters and making them his from that moment on.

So for example, if BAM was the Connection of Roshar, unmade by Odium, disturbing this basic surge to imprison her could have consequences for all, not just the singers (especially with Honor gone). It could possibly influence all connection of Roshar, and explain why the bond between Knight and spren causes events like deadeyes from that moment on, something they did not expect.

 

I had the same thought after finishing RoW. 
But I was thinking they were the Spren of the Dawncities much like the sibling is the Spren of Urithiru. 
These Dawnspren would have been  made of Adonalsium’s 16 Tones, or His Pure Tone. Hence the cymatic patterns of the Dawncities 
I hadn’t thought to connect them to the surges though, that fits nicely. 
 

[Necessary Eagle]

I'm starting to think that Ba-Ado-Mishram was originally Adonalsium's godspren, hence her middle name.

[Honorless]

Hmm... we don't see any hosts of Yelig-Nar using the Surge of Adhesion actually, maybe he can't grant it either and if he can, that might have to do with who he was before he was unmade. Do note that Hessi wasn't sure what powers he granted.

[ScadrianTank]

My question is, why didn't the Fused unmake Cusicesh in previous returns if the nine Unmade they have now were just big and powerful spren?

[Stormtide_Leviathan]

5 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

My question is, why didn't the Fused unmake Cusicesh in previous returns if the nine Unmade they have now were just big and powerful spren?

Do we know how long Cusicesh has been around?