Giskler Posted November 23, 2020 Report Share Posted November 23, 2020 I think law and justice are covered under Dominion (law, supreme authority, sovereignty) and Honor (obligation, respect, morally righteous). My guess is that the final shard is Duty or some variation of that. None of the named shards cover the concepts of responsibility, duty and service which is something you (well, at least I do) would expect to be an essence of divinity. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted November 23, 2020 Report Share Posted November 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Giskler said: I think law and justice are covered under Dominion (law, supreme authority, sovereignty) and Honor (obligation, respect, morally righteous). My guess is that the final shard is Duty or some variation of that. None of the named shards cover the concepts of responsibility, duty and service which is something you (well, at least I do) would expect to be an essence of divinity. I think Honor covers Duty to be honest 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giskler Posted November 23, 2020 Report Share Posted November 23, 2020 Just now, IndigoAjah said: I think Honor covers Duty to be honest I disagree. I don't think responsibility, duty or service would go under the umbrella of honor. Corrupt rulers or politicians perform a duty or service and are responsible, but you wouldn't call them honorable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted November 23, 2020 Report Share Posted November 23, 2020 11 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said: Interesting chart. How did you decide on those 4 Actions for Dawnshards? A long discussion on the Dawnshard forum. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted November 23, 2020 Report Share Posted November 23, 2020 I think if we look at various sources that Brandon will be taking from for his "God's" attributes we will get clues Christian theology suggests these attributes: Aseity - some would say held in Autonomy, if possible to apply to a Shard at all. Also a bit meaningless in this context as inherently held by all Shards or none at all (they need a bearer) Eternity - Preservation, and applicable to all Shards Goodness - hard one this, but might be covered by a number of Shards and feels soft as a Shard. Graciousness - subtly different but Mercy would cover this I think. Immanence applies to all the Shards Immutability - Preservation Impassibility - a very hard one to attach meaningfully, as is Impeccability Incomprehensibility - possibly? Etc etc. The ones I get left here are Veracity - which might be covered by Honor but also might not. Honesty? Sincerity? Other key attributes assumed about God: Love. Now Loving could come under Mercy or Devotion, or a combination of Mercy, Devotion and even Odium. What else does a Biblical, or Mormon, view of God suggest is inherent to such a being? I guess as Shards get holders, focus on communicable attributes makes sense. I think Veracity is actually my guess as it's accepted as a consistent attribute of Christeojudaic deity and it doesn't really get covered elsewhere. Or Peace/Pacifism? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted November 23, 2020 Report Share Posted November 23, 2020 25 minutes ago, Giskler said: I disagree. I don't think responsibility, duty or service would go under the umbrella of honor. Corrupt rulers or politicians perform a duty or service and are responsible, but you wouldn't call them honorable. The broad concept of Honour, that includes Justice, includes Duty. There is no specific take on Honour to judge such corrupt people. The many aspects of Honour (and linked to it, Passion) are something the Orders of Radiants are meant to examine, I think. Which actually might ruin my Honesty theory as I think I can fit it in there too... They all pair up imo with internal Vs external loci for the same concepts Windrunners - True justice based on morals not laws Skybreakers - despite talking about Justice are all about the Law, "objective justice" Dustbringers - something about self-mastery apparently, need to know more. Edgedancers - advocating for the voiceless, so Representation, which would make Dustbringers self-affirmation which kind of fits. Truthwatchers - searching for external Truth Lightweavers - searching for inner honesty Elsecallers - I think something to do with making decisions for the many, ethics of consequence, utilitarian as opposed to Windrunners and Skybreakers who are deontological Willshapers - looking for freedom for others - hence I think Elsecallers will be looking for security for others, even at the cost of freedom Stonewards - externalised Duty, following orders Bondsmiths - Internalised Duty, leading others, Responsibility 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giskler Posted November 23, 2020 Report Share Posted November 23, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said: The broad concept of Honour, that includes Justice, includes Duty. There is no specific take on Honour to judge such corrupt people. The many aspects of Honour (and linked to it, Passion) are something the Orders of Radiants are meant to examine, I think. Which actually might ruin my Honesty theory as I think I can fit it in there too... Duty and honor are two different concepts which can at times cross over, but also be in conflict with each other. A soldier carrying out orders he finds dishonorable would still be doing his duty. Duty or service could be morally or legally compelled regardless of the honor involved in the acts. Edited November 23, 2020 by Giskler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTuninator Posted November 23, 2020 Report Share Posted November 23, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Giskler said: Duty and honor are two different concepts which can at times cross over, but also be in conflict with each other. A soldier carrying out orders he finds dishonorable would still be doing his duty. Duty or service could be morally or legally compelled regardless of the honor involved in the acts. From another perspective, however, that soldier swore an oath to follow orders & his honor depends on carrying it out. After all, they even call it a "dishonorable discharge" when you get drummed out! As the series has increasingly been exploring, "honor" is an internal concept in many ways and doesn't necessarily at all implicitly suggest a kind of moral good. I'd tend to agree that Honor already inhabits enough of this space that a separate Duty shard wouldn't have enough of its own turf to thrive. Edited November 23, 2020 by TheTuninator 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted November 23, 2020 Report Share Posted November 23, 2020 6 minutes ago, Giskler said: Duty and honor are two different concepts which can at times cross over, but also be in conflict with each other. A soldier carrying out orders he finds dishonorable would still be doing his duty. Duty or service could be morally or legally compelled regardless of the honor involved in the acts. In strict terms in our culture, I agree. In the language used to apply to shards, I disagree. Duty is following an Honour system, where you honour a code of conduct and obligations. Honour is binding yourself to a specific type of duty. They are parts of the same larger concept. You can disagree, this is just opinion. But I don't think we'll see Duty as a Shard because I think Sanderson has made it clear that Duty is incorporated into his Honor, in several different ways. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giskler Posted November 23, 2020 Report Share Posted November 23, 2020 38 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said: In strict terms in our culture, I agree. In the language used to apply to shards, I disagree. Duty is following an Honour system, where you honour a code of conduct and obligations. Honour is binding yourself to a specific type of duty. They are parts of the same larger concept. You can disagree, this is just opinion. But I don't think we'll see Duty as a Shard because I think Sanderson has made it clear that Duty is incorporated into his Honor, in several different ways. I guess there's an argument that religious duty could go under Devotion and moral and legal duty could go under Honor. I'm thinking more around providence, order, responsibility, guidance, care... it's a bit nebulous. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted November 23, 2020 Report Share Posted November 23, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, IndigoAjah said: The broad concept of Honour, that includes Justice, includes Duty. There is no specific take on Honour to judge such corrupt people. The many aspects of Honour (and linked to it, Passion) are something the Orders of Radiants are meant to examine, I think. Which actually might ruin my Honesty theory as I think I can fit it in there too... They all pair up imo with internal Vs external loci for the same concepts Windrunners - True justice based on morals not laws Skybreakers - despite talking about Justice are all about the Law, "objective justice" Dustbringers - something about self-mastery apparently, need to know more. Edgedancers - advocating for the voiceless, so Representation, which would make Dustbringers self-affirmation which kind of fits. Truthwatchers - searching for external Truth Lightweavers - searching for inner honesty Elsecallers - I think something to do with making decisions for the many, ethics of consequence, utilitarian as opposed to Windrunners and Skybreakers who are deontological Willshapers - looking for freedom for others - hence I think Elsecallers will be looking for security for others, even at the cost of freedom Stonewards - externalised Duty, following orders Bondsmiths - Internalised Duty, leading others, Responsibility Sorry didn't mean to do this Edited November 23, 2020 by IndigoAjah 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.