So what is the last Shard?

[Jess]

Okay, technically there are still two we don't know, but one of them is almost certainly something akin to Wisdom or Prudence. It's time to make wild guesses and place bets about the last one, so that years down the line someone can point to this thread and say "CALLED IT" and have eternal bragging rights. :o)

Anyway, since Shards are aspects of divinity, it seems to me that there is a pretty notable omission in the current list: Justice (or perhaps Fairness).

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 minute ago, Jess said:

Okay, technically there are still two we don't know, but one of them is almost certainly something akin to Wisdom or Prudence. It's time to make wild guesses and place bets about the last one, so that years down the line someone can point to this thread and say "CALLED IT" and have eternal bragging rights. :o)

Anyway, since Shards are aspects of divinity, it seems to me that there is a pretty notable omission in the current list: Justice (or perhaps Fairness).

This may be covered under Honor. If not, I’d say Justice/Judgement/Law or Scholarship/Knowledge. Mostly based off my chart: 

DAWNSHARD SPOILERS:

Spoiler

 

In case you can’t read the chart, I separated the Shards into four categories based off the hypothesized Dawnshards and Mistborn external/internal concepts:

Change: Ruin, Cultivation, Invention, Whimsy

Inspire/Drive: Ambition, Valor, Autonomy, Endowment

Survive: Preservation, Mercy, Odium, Prudence

Unity: Honor, Devotion, Dominion, ?

Since this system would indicate that we are missing an External Unity/Bonds Shard, my theory has this being a Shard connected to either Law or Knowledge.

 

[redshadow310]

My long shot called it is Fear and they share a world with Valor. I could also see an interesting situation where,  afraid of being destroyed by Autonomy or Odium, Fear moves from world to world before they can be too deeply invested there. During that stay they cause terror among the local populace. Valor or her agents follow Fear and try and clean up the mess.

Edited November 20, 2020 by redshadow310

[Halyo_Alex]

Betrayal.

And they just want to be left alone and hidden forever.

[LuckyJim]

I think "Order" could be a possibility, sort of like Preservation, but more everyone acting according to specific rules and tradition.

This is mainly based on my reading of Aether of Night. So on this shardworld, the society is heavily regulated, everyone has a specific purpose that they follow (to the detriment of people that slip through the cracks), and traditions, rules and regulations are a large part of what determines their lives. Shards heavily govern the culture of the people they inhabit (Preservation's world is resistant to change, Endowment's is very extravagant, no one ever stops talking about Honor on Roshar), so Order could be a potential possibility.

Decay (the eventual Ruin) was interfering in this world, but there was a god of that world before Ruin showed up, which could have been Order.

Of course, this is based off of a book that was never published, and with large parts that aren't even canon anymore.

[LiftIRL]

Before we got to know the 4-groups-of-4 system I would say something like Loyalty, or anything that really focuses on like, society and interpersonal relationships and obligations between people. im still working around a lot of my thoughts for the 4 groups, but rn i think what we're missing will be something related to Responsibility and, like, Efficiency, Capabillity- so maybe something like Determination or Obligation.

[Friendshipspren]

I'm going for Erudition or Depravity. 

Maybe Imitation

[Gears]

I need a word for the callous, uncaring selfishness that comes from necessity or a self-centered utilitarian standpoint. Not greed, since that implies want. This is the sort of feeling that comes from, "That will help me, so it's mine now." 

Alternate guesses include Apathy, Procrastination, Ignorance, and Persistance. 

Edited November 22, 2020 by Gears

[LiftIRL]

24 minutes ago, Gears said:

I need a word for the callous, uncaring selfishness that comes from necessity or a self-centered utilitarian standpoint. Not greed, since that implies want. This is the sort of feeling that comes from, "That will help me, so it's mine now." 

Alternate guesses include Apathy, Procrastination, Ignorance, and Persistance. 

I would say what you're describing is Entitlement- "I need this, and my needs are at the top". But wouldn't that just be a mean, extreme version of Autonomy?

[Gears]

3 minutes ago, LiftIRL said:

I would say what you're describing is Entitlement- "I need this, and my needs are at the top". But wouldn't that just be a mean, extreme version of Autonomy?

Perhaps. I wouldn't say that it is necessarily an extension of Autonomy, but Autonomy is defined by the ability to choose, so I suppose it could be a choice made. It might be an extension of Ambition, but Ambition demonstrates want, not the expectation of having.

[+Bliev]

16 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

 

I think "Order" could be a possibility, sort of like Preservation, but more everyone acting according to specific rules and tradition.

 

Based on Navani’s POV in RoW this would be Honor IMO:

Quote

boundless energy of Cultivation, always growing and changing, and the calm solidity of Honor—organized, structured. They vibrated together. Structure and nature. Knowledge and wonder. Mixing.

I think the Prudence shard for sure (or wisdom, but I know Brandon liked the Prudence name in a wob so I’ll go with it), and I like the idea of Justice, which is different than order and oaths, and is more related to connection among people, but to an external sort of truth/standard. 

[+Oltux72]

Hedonism - we lack an equivalent of Dionysos. And the other would be Caution/Prudence/Fear/Wisdom.

And that also explains wht Harmony did not talk to them. One is permanently stoned and drunk and the other is too cautious to answer.

[seriodor]

Hmm, I think the last shard has to be an antoginistic one. For story reasons, and to balance out the rest of the known shards. I think Rebellion. I think the holder of the Rebellion shard could be the one who orchestrated the shattering. I also think they could be the hidden big bad, trying to overthrow the Cosmere entirely just to see what comes next.

Edited November 22, 2020 by seriodor

[teknopathetic]

On 2020-11-20 at 0:49 AM, Jess said:

Okay, technically there are still two we don't know, but one of them is almost certainly something akin to Wisdom or Prudence. It's time to make wild guesses and place bets about the last one, so that years down the line someone can point to this thread and say "CALLED IT" and have eternal bragging rights. :o)

Anyway, since Shards are aspects of divinity, it seems to me that there is a pretty notable omission in the current list: Justice (or perhaps Fairness).

We also have something like "Sorrow" as semi kind of confirmed. Maybe Sorrow is a part of mMercy, but maybe not. 

[teknopathetic]

I do want a shard like Idiocy/Mistake/Error/Hubrace/Folly. I feel like God's errors are not fully accounted for in this division. 

[+Oltux72]

6 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

I do want a shard like Idiocy/Mistake/Error/Hubrace/Folly. I feel like God's errors are not fully accounted for in this division. 

I would consider that job to be shared between Ambition and Whimsy.

[Halyo_Alex]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Hedonism - we lack an equivalent of Dionysos

Indulgence perhaps?

I wanna go to their Shardworld, sounds like it would be a party 24/7 (or however long a day/week is there) with magic powers to boot

[LiftIRL]

What about Cunning? the most Machiavellian side of Adonalsium. Odium may be Adonalsium's rage and hatred, but Cunning would have been the part of him trying to maneuver and control the world, the part that liked to move the strings and most of all, control others.

the magic system and general cultural affect of this Shard on it's planet would reward a cutthroat type of constant competitions, maybe with powers to manuver and control people and circumstances- maybe similar to emotional allomancy or, at their highest manifestations, creating Connections.

[+Czernobog]

17 hours ago, seriodor said:

Hmm, I think the last shard has to be an antoginistic one. For story reasons, and to balance out the rest of the known shards.

I think it's a trap to assume a positive outcome to occur due to the actions of a "good" shard. Take an extreme possibility for Mercy: every living creature suffers, so wouldn't it be the ultimate Mercy to end all life in the Cosmere, in order to remove that suffering?

Such a twist on expectations makes for much more interesting storytelling. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, LiftIRL said:

What about Cunning? the most Machiavellian side of Adonalsium. Odium may be Adonalsium's rage and hatred, but Cunning would have been the part of him trying to maneuver and control the world, the part that liked to move the strings and most of all, control others.

the magic system and general cultural affect of this Shard on it's planet would reward a cutthroat type of constant competitions, maybe with powers to manuver and control people and circumstances- maybe similar to emotional allomancy or, at their highest manifestations, creating Connections.

Cunning has no indication of a need to control others. It can also just be the ability to be shrewd, to recognize the most intelligent course, to know when they are being tricked or when it’s time to back out of a bad situation.

The negative associations of cunning have anti-Semitic origins. Your list of traits is rather offensive, and is essentially a list of anti-Semitic stereotypes. A wise author should avoid using and propagating those. (This is a VERY big issue with traditionally negative Western traits - they ALL have anti-Semitic origins and associations.)

[LiftIRL]

2 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Cunning has no indication of a need to control others. It can also just be the ability to be shrewd, to recognize the most intelligent course, to know when they are being tricked or when it’s time to back out of a bad situation.

The negative associations of cunning have anti-Semitic origins. Your list of traits is rather offensive, and is essentially a list of anti-Semitic stereotypes. A wise author should avoid using and propagating those. (This is a VERY big issue with traditionally negative Western traits - they ALL have anti-Semitic origins and associations.)

Me: *is confused jew*
I apologize for any offense I might have caused. English is not my first language, and i understand cunning is a word that can be perceived in a few ways. I actually felt unsure whether it is the right word for the emotion I wanted to portray- but I was impatient to do a big check and look for words, and decided to instead go with what a quick check in the google dictionary said- "having or showing skill in achieving one's ends by deceit or evasion."
What you pointed out helped to further open my eyes to the ill-suitedness of the name to the concept I had in my head, and using my favored translation software (which agrees with you- cunning is not necessarily about deceit or ill intent, but can also be equivalent to intelligence and quick-wittedness) I think maybe a better name would be Manipulation, Control, Conniving, or Wilyness. 

I agree all of us have to evaluate the ideas in our writing to see what harmful ideas we are unconsciously relying on, because we all inevitably are.
 

P.S. It is posibble to write Cunning- wether the more already-positive side or it, but even the full Manipulative Controlling Puppetmaster part- as Good. I, like brandon sanderson, am a discworld fan, and I won't deny I was thinking a bit of my liking of Vetinari and the amazingness of seeing Hoid interact with a powerful Vetinari-like being when i wrote the post.

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 minutes ago, LiftIRL said:

Me: *is confused jew*
I apologize for any offense I might have caused. English is not my first language, and i understand cunning is a word that can be perceived in a few ways. I actually felt unsure whether it is the right word for the emotion I wanted to portray- but I was impatient to do a big check and look for words, and decided to instead go with what a quick check in the google dictionary said- "having or showing skill in achieving one's ends by deceit or evasion."
What you pointed out helped to further open my eyes to the ill-suitedness of the name to the concept I had in my head, and using my favored translation software (which agrees with you- cunning is not necessarily about deceit or ill intent, but can also be equivalent to intelligence and quick-wittedness) I think maybe a better name would be Manipulation, Control, Conniving, or Wilyness. 

I agree all of us have to evaluate the ideas in our writing to see what harmful ideas we are unconsciously relying on, because we all inevitably are.
 

P.S. It is posibble to write Cunning- wether the more already-positive side or it, but even the full Manipulative Controlling Puppetmaster part- as Good. I, like brandon sanderson, am a discworld fan, and I won't deny I was thinking a bit of my liking of Vetinari and the amazingness of seeing Hoid interact with a powerful Vetinari-like being when i wrote the post.

I like to read old literature, and if you go back far enough the sources of certain connotations become clear. I was also taught a lot of these in Jewish history class, and they come up in many fiction and non-fiction books involving the Jewish communities of pre-Holocaust Europe.

Pretty much every negative trait in European literature is anti-Semitic in origin, which is where you want to be careful about using them as an easy ‘evil’ sign. Unfortunately, many modern authors don’t seem to be aware of these issues, while those that hate us use those books to confirm their biases. It’s a problem.

I think Cunning would be an interesting Shard, especially since it usually has negative connotations. It’s a perfect place for subversion, with Cunning actually being good. Or maybe it’s the Shard that wants to survive, it’s intelligence telling it to get away from all the murder-happy Shards.

[LiftIRL]

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I like to read old literature, and if you go back far enough the sources of certain connotations become clear. I was also taught a lot of these in Jewish history class, and they come up in many fiction and non-fiction books involving the Jewish communities of pre-Holocaust Europe.

Pretty much every negative trait in European literature is anti-Semitic in origin, which is where you want to be careful about using them as an easy ‘evil’ sign. Unfortunately, many modern authors don’t seem to be aware of these issues, while those that hate us use those books to confirm their biases. It’s a problem.

I think Cunning would be an interesting Shard, especially since it usually has negative connotations. It’s a perfect place for subversion, with Cunning actually being good. Or maybe it’s the Shard that wants to survive, it’s intelligence telling it to get away from all the murder-happy Shards.

I entirely agree! We know sanderson does rouges with a heart of gold very well, I can't wait for a more strategy based take, and, as i said- knowing he knows about Vetinri makes me think if he does go with a conniving sort of shard he could make it very morally nuanced and interesting.

As to jewish history and depiction in literature- I agree and assure you I Know My Material, and as I said, did not mean the moral leaning of what i described to be particularly related to the mere fact of it's sharpness

[Kingsdaughter613]

8 minutes ago, LiftIRL said:

I entirely agree! We know sanderson does rouges with a heart of gold very well, I can't wait for a more strategy based take, and, as i said- knowing he knows about Vetinri makes me think if he does go with a conniving sort of shard he could make it very morally nuanced and interesting.

As to jewish history and depiction in literature- I agree and assure you I Know My Material, and as I said, did not mean the moral leaning of what i described to be particularly related to the mere fact of it's sharpness

Oh, I’m not annoyed or anything. A lot of people don’t know, so I like to put the information out there. This way they can discover and learn and not make those mistakes. You’re more likely to discover these things on random forums now then in dry history books, lol!

[IndigoAjah]

On 20/11/2020 at 8:07 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

This may be covered under Honor. If not, I’d say Justice/Judgement/Law or Scholarship/Knowledge. Mostly based off my chart: 

DAWNSHARD SPOILERS:

  Hide contents

 

In case you can’t read the chart, I separated the Shards into four categories based off the hypothesized Dawnshards and Mistborn external/internal concepts:

Change: Ruin, Cultivation, Invention, Whimsy

Inspire/Drive: Ambition, Valor, Autonomy, Endowment

Survive: Preservation, Mercy, Odium, Prudence

Unity: Honor, Devotion, Dominion, ?

Since this system would indicate that we are missing an External Unity/Bonds Shard, my theory has this being a Shard connected to either Law or Knowledge.

 

Interesting chart.

 

How did you decide on those 4 Actions for Dawnshards?