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What Does Cultivation Want [Discuss]


Child of Hodor

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Cultivation (Koravari, Koravellium Avast, hidden dragon) wanted Rayse dead for obvious reasons: he killed her husband and was trying to kill her.

She accomplished that and seems pleased with his successor considering she set this whole thing up and then offers to teach the newly ascended Odium.

What does she want now? She wants to cultivate obviously, but does she still want to be in the Rosharan system? According to Wyndle she is not a big fan of humans anymore. She has probably soured on Singer as well. 

Is she setting up Taravangian or is she genuinely pleased with him as Odium and will leave him alone if he leaves her alone? (He won’t)

It’s not clear if she cares what Odium does as long as he does it elsewhere. That’s how most of the other Shards feel “hey as long as he’s busy elsewhere it’s not my problem”. 

All the focus will be on the contest of champions. But will Cultivation put her green thumb on the scale?

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I think she wants to plant her final seed and then be done with it. So much of this books seems about the limits of immortality, psychologically. I can’t imagine she’s immune. Another thread noted that 2 of the 3 she “touched” have leveled up: Dalinar is as close to reviving Honor as one could be, and T is now Odium. She sees the future better than most shards, and so I’m sure that she knows T is likely to get out of his bondage. But I don’t think she cares much about that. I think she could be cultivating Lift until she’s ready to take the power herself and then will let herself be killed to serve as the catalyst for the next phase of the future she sees is likely to occur.

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3 hours ago, Bliev said:

I think she wants to plant her final seed and then be done with it. So much of this books seems about the limits of immortality, psychologically. I can’t imagine she’s immune. Another thread noted that 2 of the 3 she “touched” have leveled up: Dalinar is as close to reviving Honor as one could be, and T is now Odium. She sees the future better than most shards, and so I’m sure that she knows T is likely to get out of his bondage. But I don’t think she cares much about that. I think she could be cultivating Lift until she’s ready to take the power herself and then will let herself be killed to serve as the catalyst for the next phase of the future she sees is likely to occur.

Or she willingly surrenders her power.

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11 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Or she willingly surrenders her power.

That's a great point. I could see that as well. Part of cultivating growth is death, right? Growth that is infinite is like a cancer...and death can prompt more growth. I can see that for sure.

One thing about this that I think could be interesting is that she might see this future differently than some others. So, she knew T had to be in tune with the shard of Odium to be able to take the power, hence T's "most emotional/least smart" day. So she made that happen. She knew that D would need to figure out how to be an honorable man without his guilt paralyzing him, so she made that happen. She might also believe that the entire Cosmere, or all the other shards, need to grow too. Change is a big theme on Roshar, and was in RoW with spren and men realizing that growth and change is possible and necessary. That's such a cultivation theme. So what if she sees releasing Odium as a necessary part of spurring the other shards in their "growth", erroneously or not? Her Intent has likely clouded a lot of her judgment/scheming by this point. So it's hard for me to tell what of this is her shard's Intent--prune/growth/change--and what is strategy, per se. 

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Just now, Bliev said:

That's a great point. I could see that as well. Part of cultivating growth is death, right? Growth that is infinite is like a cancer...and death can prompt more growth. I can see that for sure.

One thing about this that I think could be interesting is that she might see this future differently than some others. So, she knew T had to be in tune with the shard of Odium to be able to take the power, hence T's "most emotional/least smart" day. So she made that happen. She knew that D would need to figure out how to be an honorable man without his guilt paralyzing him, so she made that happen. She might also believe that the entire Cosmere, or all the other shards, need to grow too. Change is a big theme on Roshar, and was in RoW with spren and men realizing that growth and change is possible and necessary. That's such a cultivation theme. So what if she sees releasing Odium as a necessary part of spurring the other shards in their "growth", erroneously or not? Her Intent has likely clouded a lot of her judgment/scheming by this point. So it's hard for me to tell what of this is her shard's Intent--prune/growth/change--and what is strategy, per se. 

If she surrenders willingly she may not die. Giving up a Shard does not equal death.

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2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

If she surrenders willingly she may not die. Giving up a Shard does not equal death.

Very true. That would be a strange new occurrence that we haven't yet seen. One of the original 16 vessels as a sliver. That would be cool.

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20 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

What does she want now? She wants to cultivate obviously, but does she still want to be in the Rosharan system?

If she goes, her late partner's Investiture is lost to her.

And the Rosharan system has a world that should be restored and made green again

20 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

According to Wyndle she is not a big fan of humans anymore. She has probably soured on Singer as well.

How convinient that there are multiple other sentient species present on Roshar. That might not even be random chance.

20 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Is she setting up Taravangian or is she genuinely pleased with him as Odium and will leave him alone if he leaves her alone? (He won’t)

Not forever. For the present, yes, he will. If she wanted to kill him, she would have done it immediately, before he knew how to handle the power.

If he goes out into the Cosmere the other Shards will need to act. She likely does not expect him to survive. But that is somebody else's problem.

20 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

All the focus will be on the contest of champions. But will Cultivation put her green thumb on the scale?

If need be.

3 hours ago, Bliev said:

That's a great point. I could see that as well. Part of cultivating growth is death, right?

No. That part ended up as Ruin.

3 hours ago, Bliev said:

Growth that is infinite is like a cancer

Every Shard alone is problematic. Ruin had a point when he told Kelsier what Preservation alone would mean.

3 hours ago, Bliev said:

...and death can prompt more growth. I can see that for sure.

Yes, but not your own death. That is Ruin's answer. Cultivation would emigrate, create land or, in the worst case, slay her neighbors and their children. She is growth, not that romantic cycle of life thing. That got broken up.

3 hours ago, Bliev said:

One thing about this that I think could be interesting is that she might see this future differently than some others. So, she knew T had to be in tune with the shard of Odium to be able to take the power, hence T's "most emotional/least smart" day. So she made that happen. She knew that D would need to figure out how to be an honorable man without his guilt paralyzing him, so she made that happen. She might also believe that the entire Cosmere, or all the other shards, need to grow too. Change is a big theme on Roshar, and was in RoW with spren and men realizing that growth and change is possible and necessary. That's such a cultivation theme. So what if she sees releasing Odium as a necessary part of spurring the other shards in their "growth", erroneously or not? Her Intent has likely clouded a lot of her judgment/scheming by this point. So it's hard for me to tell what of this is her shard's Intent--prune/growth/change--and what is strategy, per se. 

Releasing Odium is rational. She did the job for millenia, got widowed over it and nobody thanked her for it. Not nice, but a simple utilitarian calculation. If they want Odium contained, they will have to pay the price, not she. And if some of them die in the process, well, fewer potential threats.

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I think she wants Odium out of the system, and is trying to get him freed. That's what will happen at the end of 5: Odium freed, revealed to be Cultivation's plan.

As to why she would want Odium freed, that's surprising. I was thinking the other day about how the nine remaining shardic Vessels form a natural oligarchy of the Cosmere. That no matter what you think is happening in your life, you're being ruled by the Vessels that hold the shards. I can't get the idea out of my head that there will always be these rulers of the Cosmere until they are too shattered and small to wield that kind of power again. Turn the 16 shards into 65,356 Slivers (that's 2^16) and see what happens. Then instead of each Shard getting a planet all to themselves, the largest splinters, and the Vessels that hold them, are more like Returned or Mistborn or Radiants than they are like gods. They could be great generals or kings, but never again gods.

This is certainly more egalitarian, and considering that Taravangain thinks the Cosmere is horribly mismanaged, that means that the people who are in charge should be indicted. The Vessels have done a crap job. Maybe this is Cultivation's plan to get fresh blood into the Vessels, to spur the Shards from their stagnation, to refresh the Vessels to spur them into making the Cosmere better instead of simply slavishly following the Intent of their Shard.

Edited by Rainier
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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

No. That part ended up as Ruin.

I think Ruin got the end of the curve where he's only capable of destruction, and other shards can destroy, but don't have his... single-mindedness and complete dedication, so to speak.

I think she's capable of destroying to create. She's Cultivation - if you're cultivating cabbages and some snails are eating them, you'd absolutely get rid of the snails. 

I think her goal is in what RayseOdium said once, and I'm misquoting heavily here: "Cultivation would keep you changing forever." I think she's looking for a way out of the cycle of destruction, one that's going to leave her free to return to messing with her chosen planet(s) - changing them or evolving them or something similar.

I can see how the Odium "I'll use Roshar as my base to launch the war on the Universe forever" version 1.0 is less desirable for her that the Odium "I'll save everyone" version 2.0.

 

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6 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Releasing Odium is rational. She did the job for millenia, got widowed over it and nobody thanked her for it. Not nice, but a simple utilitarian calculation. If they want Odium contained, they will have to pay the price, not she. And if some of them die in the process, well, fewer potential threats.

While I don’t doubt that she’s upset about her partner’s destruction, i think killing Rayse was her revenge. I seriously doubt she’s playing a petty game because she feels unappreciated. I also think that a shard can do whatever the power believes to be in its Intent, and I don’t think that precludes Cultivation from seeing death or destruction as part of that process, just like she saw removing Dalinar’s memory as a “pruning” and Ruin and Preservation decided to create life together. It’s possible she’s working to release Odium to stick to to the Cosmere but I find that less compelling as a motivation, personally. 

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3 hours ago, Bliev said:

I also think that a shard can do whatever the power believes to be in its Intent, and I don’t think that precludes Cultivation from seeing death or destruction as part of that process, just like she saw removing Dalinar’s memory as a “pruning” and Ruin and Preservation decided to create life together. It’s possible she’s working to release Odium to stick to to the Cosmere but I find that less compelling as a motivation, personally. 

This is an interesting point. As Cultivation, she could see Odium as a necessary force that should not be confined to one planet, only with another Vessel driving it. 

 

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7 hours ago, TiaOmi said:

I think Ruin got the end of the curve where he's only capable of destruction, and other shards can destroy, but don't have his... single-mindedness and complete dedication, so to speak.

Right, but except for Odium and maybe Valor none are driven to it. Hence Cultivation sees death as a possible tool, not a goal. She has no problem with immortality, as long as you keep adapting, changinging or growing.

7 hours ago, TiaOmi said:

I think she's capable of destroying to create. She's Cultivation - if you're cultivating cabbages and some snails are eating them, you'd absolutely get rid of the snails. 

Yes. But she will not destroy one crop just because she feels it is too old. As long as it is growing, fine. She may reap, she may harvest, she will kill enemies, but hers is not the circle of life aspect. As long as you grow, all is well.

7 hours ago, TiaOmi said:

I think her goal is in what RayseOdium said once, and I'm misquoting heavily here: "Cultivation would keep you changing forever." I think she's looking for a way out of the cycle of destruction, one that's going to leave her free to return to messing with her chosen planet(s) - changing them or evolving them or something similar.

Yes. And, well, she is not suicidal. Odium is simply dangerous to have around.

7 hours ago, TiaOmi said:

I can see how the Odium "I'll use Roshar as my base to launch the war on the Universe forever" version 1.0 is less desirable for her that the Odium "I'll save everyone" version 2.0.

 

Yes. And the second Odium is open to negotiated agreements for a time. A major win.

3 hours ago, Bliev said:

While I don’t doubt that she’s upset about her partner’s destruction, i think killing Rayse was her revenge. I seriously doubt she’s playing a petty game because she feels unappreciated.

Not appreciated, rewarded or compensated. Keeping Odium bound up in the Rosharan system served the whole Cosmere at the expense of one system. It was a noble, honorable, selfless act. You are not going to get that from Cultivation. She will cooperate, but self-sacrifice is not her thing.

3 hours ago, Bliev said:

I also think that a shard can do whatever the power believes to be in its Intent, and I don’t think that precludes Cultivation from seeing death or destruction as part of that process, just like she saw removing Dalinar’s memory as a “pruning” and Ruin and Preservation decided to create life together.

Death is part of an ecology. Predators and prey. Not a problem. If you are eaten, you have been too weak.
She is not Preservation, Devotion or Mercy. She can and will kill. Kill. There is key. She will not demand that something weaken and perish. Reasons are important to most Shards. The best example is Honor. Murdering one of your allies is unthinkable. Executing the same ally for a crime is required.

3 hours ago, Bliev said:

It’s possible she’s working to release Odium to stick to to the Cosmere but I find that less compelling as a motivation, personally. 

Simple utilitarian calculation. Freeloaders inhibit growth. They want something to happen, they do it or pay adequately. She is not going to do it out of honor or pity. Not her Intent.

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